What is the true purpose of human progression? Is it all about God?

[theblueprint_Nick]

I think that by the title of this thread I have exposed myself. I believe in God. That aside, let me point out the obvious: Science, mathematics, philosophy and any progression made in any or all of the subjects never cease to question God as to say He does or does not exist. All throughtout the ages, fool or wise, we have all come to examine the same evidences about whether or not God exists regardless of how advance we get. The universe has been proven to be irreducibly complex and the more we progress, the more evident this becomes. After each discovery a man will say, "We have come close to unlocking the secrets" and again, "It's just a matter of time" Yet the there is at least two constants that forever remain; the wise and the foolish.

If God exists and He is given the proper attributes of deity then truly there is nothing else other than the persuit to prove or disprove Him. If technological, physiological, pshychological and all logical forms have taken such an advancement then why do we continue to ask the same questions and reduntantly receive the same answers? You may say that religion is an ancient relic of the past to appease the ignorant minds of a pitiful existence that incessantly interferes with the progression of man in his search for immortatily. Maybe it's the belief in God that keeps man from consuming himself in the deception that he can cheat death. Progression while denying God is the persuit for immortality without the "dictatorship" of God. If it's not about God then what is it about?

 

[Jameson]

To summarize your point I get this out of it - because we have not made any advancements that completely prove or disprove God, whether it be technological or philisophical, then everything must be about God or this pursuit of answering "the God question".

Hmmm. This is an interesting view I have never considered. You are saying basically that we all live, breathe, and die for the pursuit of finding or disproving God. Although I can see how you would say this, I disagree because of some of your premises.

Why would you say that we only exist to find the truth about God? Do you truly believe that none of us do anything without another motive?

This kind of makes me think of Freud, saying that every action we do has an underlying sexual meaning to it.

 

[cragwolf]

If it's not about God then what is it about?

Everything else.

 

[theblueprint_Nick]

As I have said in my first post, If you assign God his proper attributes of deity then there doesn't leave room for anything else. God who is existence, who made all things has to be the center of all things. I don't believe that God is "energy" like something you'll see in Star Wars; something that a mortal man, who knows neither how he came to be or how he will end, can attempt to manipulate. Without God there can be nothing, though some may argue that the idea of a god is rediculous but it is more reasonable to think that something came out of nothing. Why do I think there can be no other motive? Because God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. There is nowhere you can go where He is not. He is the sustainer of the place or the thing. When Moses said to God, "Who should I say that You are?", He replied, "I AM that I AM" If I would then come to the inevitable conclusion that since God is all of these things then the motive is not just to prove or disprove God because the answer to that is already woven within our very consciousness. The motive would then be to either obey Him or rebel against Him. To prove and work for Him would be to obey, and to deny, disprove or ignore would be to rebel against Him. Crag says, "everything else" and as much as that might make sense to an atheist, that would be open rebellion against Him.

 

[Mental Gridlock]

If God exists and He is given the proper attributes of deity then truly there is nothing else other than the persuit to prove or disprove Him.

"If God exists"

You're basing your entire argument here on the assumption that God exists, something still not proven/disproven. It's shaky grounds to support this claim. For my argument I just have to say "If god doesn't exist, then everything we do and think has to be about something besides God" which would also be logically true.

 

[theblueprint_Nick]

That is true. God can neither be proven or disproven. God cannot be put into a test tube. You cannot create an experiment that would reveal God and any attempt to do so would be wasted efforts in hopes to bring the uncontainable down to a dissectable, finite form. If it were that God did not exist, or to say it more appropriately, if an individual believed that God did not exist, then that person would live there life in spite of God and in contradiction to His existence. But when I say, "God", this term cannot be corelated to anything else but the infinite because when we think "God" we think the one(or the "is") with infinite power or the Almighty. So God can't be mistaken for a purple unicorn. Whether or not you're an atheist or something of the sort and believe that when you die it's to the abysmal of non-existance for you, though we cannot fathom it, the concept of eternity is still there. For instance, I have spoken with atheist's who believe that the universe is infinite. I ask why and the answer is sometimes, "I don't know" or something like, "It has to be" If we believe it's infinite it is because we have a concept of eternity and If we believe it has an end or a limit then we must come to the inevitable conclusion that something or someone had to put it there because what is on the outside of the so-called "end" or "limit"? Why? Because eternity is in our being.

So even when confronted with God and this person says, "I don't believe in God", they live there life in manner X because of how they feel about God. And to cover all bases, if someone said, "I don't care if he exist's or not. I do X because that's just what I want to do." this person has already clearly stated why he does what he does: he doesn't care so he lives in a manner that cares not about God. So long as this world continues the way it is there will always be people who say the do or not believe in God or doesn't care either way about God. They will say I believe in God because of X and I don't believe in God because of Y and I don't care about God because X and Y has already been taken. Therefore I have come to say EVERYTHING is about God.

 

[cronxeh]

well if god created the universe and people as elements of that universe that would discover both the universe and god, then what can you tell me about god? who does god think he is to play 'universe' with us?

what gives you the thought, based on the information around you, that its part of a script, a fate as you would call it, to follow god's will?

the idea of god is not something that can be proven or disproven by mathematics. its not even in the scope of philosophy - as a matter of fact, there is no subject in the world (certainly not theology) that can prove or disprove god's existence as well as purpose of the universe.

 

[theblueprint_Nick]

well if god created the universe and people as elements of that universe that would discover both the universe and god, then what can you tell me about god? who does god think he is to play 'universe' with us?

My post was just about the general existence of God, but for a simple answer, God thinks he's God. I don't think the moderators would approve of me posting my theological beliefs about God. But if I may push the envelope a bit, I believe God thinks He is the Father of all things and will reject those who willingly choose to divorce Him.

what gives you the thought, based on the information around you, that its part of a script, a fate as you would call it, to follow god's will?

The information in the world around me tells me to rationalize everything that happens in the world in a natural way, essentially denying a higher purpose for everything. Therefore I reject this world and the will it want's me to follow because the will of this world is corrupt. I don't believe that a script was written, period. I believe a script was written according to what He already knew we would do. I believe we have a will, but will as we might we cannot break God's ultimately will. We can will against Him and fail, or will what He wills and agree that He is God.

the idea of god is not something that can be proven or disproven by mathematics. its not even in the scope of philosophy - as a matter of fact, there is no subject in the world (certainly not theology) that can prove or disprove god's existence as well as purpose of the universe.

Well if God is not philosphical, theological, mathematical, or logical, then I must contend that your existence is also just the same. But you and I do exist, and know we exist, and I also know that I did not cause myself to exist so I conclude that an intelligent higher power has caused me to exist. I am intelligent but I just can't come to bring myself to believe that I am more intelligent than my creator.

 

[cronxeh]

your logic fails on every single quote you replied to, and not only that, you seem to have missed the question and evaded the answer I've been looking for

as a matter of fact the only answer i was expecting is none whatsoever

if you claim to not be part of the corrupt world and only want to be part of god's domain - you contradicting with your first post, where you clearly indicated that everything was god's, including the ways and the societies and the evil and the thought process

furthermore, you claim to be able to understand what god would and won't do, and what god is and what god isn't - you seem to have an image of god that you would like, rather then what the reality or supernatural reality would depict it to be. if i dug it deeper, past the scope of the forum rules, we would discover that you don't hold god to be evil, your image of god -your creator- is of something that is not only bigger than life, but also something that only has select few properties and somehow the 'other' properties are kept at bay - or perhaps in some anti-god creature which you subconsciously claim doesn't exist.

 

[theblueprint_Nick]

I said everything is about God and God sustains everything, not God is everything; He has a hand in everything because if He did not, the thing would not exist. I did not say I am not part of this corrupt world but reject what the world says, that I must embrace the corruptibility of it because the world says that if is not corruptible(Changeable, alterable, breakable...), it's not real. All things do belong to God. Nowhere did I indicate that God was evil, but that God who owns all things has the control to punish evil. Evil itself does not have substance, it is the darkness. We don't "see" the darkness but we see the light, wherever the light is not, that is darkness. It is His creation that choose to do evil, that is, to do something apart from God's will.

If it was about me and what I wanted God to be then I would choose to be my own god. If it was about me then I could do nothing wrong, all things could be justified, rationlized, and unaccounted for.

You make some pretty fantastic claims about me. You must have figured me out to a science. It's very arrogant of you to suggest that your logic was so flawless in your response to me that you expected NO answer at all. By saying that you expect no answer is because you seem to think that you masterfully backed my reasoning into a corner. Also, I did not evade your question but rather, you attempted to force me to answer in a way that only makes natural sense. If I answered you in any other way, then I would have contradicted myself. Remember what you also said, "God can neither be proven nor disproven"? Yet you asked me to give a natural answer to a supernatural question.

what gives you the thought, based on the information around you, that its part of a script, a fate as you would call it, to follow god's will?

I don't know the details of your beliefs, but there are many that believe that we don't really have a free will. A natural answer to a "fate" question would be thus: That we are shaped by an inumberable amount of variables in society that mold us and that we make "choices" based on what our eviroment has told us to believe, as if we are just highly programmed machines, doing nothing more then cruching numbers. If this is true then everything started at the Big bang, and this action caused that reaction and so forth and so forth, so your existence is just a mathematical reaction to some other action. If it were possible to calculate all these things then the future would be nothing more than an inevitable result of action and reaction, cause and effect.

I don't believe that God is bigger than life, I believe that God is life. God is not like a man. When atheists think of God they think of a man as God and what a man would do in God's position. So they think of themselves as God and conclude that the idea of God is preposterous. Attempting to imagine omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence is futile. God did not come to be like a man came to be, God is.

 

[Jameson]

When atheists think of God they think of a man as God and what a man would do in God's position.

I'm an atheist and I think about God all the time, not as a man, but as God.

But anyway, I think this thread is getting off topic. It isn't about the proof of God, it's about "everything is about God".

I think my problem with your logic lies with what you define "about" to mean. When you say "everything is about God" because God created everything, you are saying "about" to roughly mean "created" or "existing because of". And if that is your definition, then yes, I would agree with you. :)

However, just to pose a counterexample, because we all love debating, how is me going to get some breakfast about God. Trust me, at 7 'oclock in the morning, I have no shred about God in my mind, only food - and a lot of coffee. So when I am doing my simple act of eating, how is this about God? Sure if God exists than I am doing all of this because of Him/Her, but am I consciously thinking about God? Am I doing this for God?

My answer is no.

Jameson

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

my eye is "about" seeing, my vision is "about" me knowing what is around me, my knowledge of what is around me is "about" me interacting with the environment and other me's (people), my interaction with the invironment and other people is "about"... um, me wanting to interact with the environment and other people? my desire to interact is "about"... um...

purpose purpose purpose purpose purpose purpose purpose purpose... umm... good thing I can choose to not spend my time thinking about these things when I want. I think the "God is redundant thread" covers this stuff pretty well.

"However, just to pose a counterexample, because we all love debating, how is me going to get some breakfast about God. Trust me, at 7 'oclock in the morning, I have no shred about God in my mind, only food - and a lot of coffee. So when I am doing my simple act of eating, how is this about God? Sure if God exists than I am doing all of this because of Him/Her, but am I consciously thinking about God? Am I doing this for God?" - Jameson

nice, but incomplete. Is a preacher aware of doing everything for God at every moment of his/her life? no, but that doesn't mean that he/she doesn't. Is a football player thinking "this is going to be really great what I'm about to do for god" when he is running as fast as he can while avoiding opposing team members in an effort to catch the football in the n-zone? no, you can't say such a thing, but if you're satisfied with your answer, kudos.

 

[cronxeh]

and yet you continue to eloquently discuss the nature of god, without giving a reason behind your claims

what motivated you to post this thread? was it for god/about god? or was it to try to see the different responses you would get

what was the reason for you to post that everything is not only about god, but that god exists?

what particular source or event, or perhaps a logical hypothesis of incompleteness in the world made you say there is a 'supernatural' - that is something beyond the realm of our world.

what logic has it that supernatural not only exists but has an influence over the natural?

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

1. Nobody can give reason either way.

2. I don't know, I guess I wanted to see responses, and try to reason the main idea of the thread through. I could have just reasoned to myself, but sometimes I think through the keyboard.

3. did I say that God exists? I just said that Jameson's counterexample is incomplete.

4.see number 3. also, this topic was touched on in the god is redundant thread, so I merely referred him there, in that thread I never proclaimed that God exists, but our conception of God does exist. You're putting words in my mouth.

5.see number 4. But if you want to get down to it, I would say that if God exists, then he/she/it created the laws of nature (including evolution, and even the evolution of this conversation), so it goes without saying that God would have influence.

If you really think that everything must have a reason to occur, then what is your purpose in attacking me? what is your purpose even? how are you so logical? if you don't mind me asking. what is the purpose of the universe? what is the reason for it to exist? because it would make no difference to us if it didn't right? My reason for asking is simple curiosity. I want to peer in your mind and see what you think, not to shoot you down right away, but to consider what you have to say and maybe learn something.

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

Honestly, I like debating these things. I'm trying to quit smoking, so to take my mind off of a cig, I went to this forum. When I saw a thread called "Everything is about God" I just had to check it out and open pandoras box. There are always cool people talking about wacky things on this site.

 

[theblueprint_Nick]

All of the above cronxeh; I did it for God, about God, and for the responses I get. I see a lot of talk(not a bad thing) about things we will never understand, nor can we because we are mortal and finite.

I used to be an atheist and I would have told you then that I never thought about God. I believe in God now, and so looking back in retrospect I can see that what I was doing I did in spite of God, knowing He exists, and doing what I did to show my distaste for Him and in my ultimate act of contempt, deny Him. I didn't believe in God but when I was full of wrath I did. When I was full of curses I charged Him with all of them. I would have never admitted that even to myself but I know it to be true now.

How many have been so angry that he looks to the sky, shakes his fist and curses God to His face, just because somebody needs to know your anger? Even if you don't believe, it's relieving to think that God heard your outbursts.

How can anybody discuss God without discussing His nature? I stick by my claim that everything is about God because you cannot come to any philosphical argument or science or anything and expect to dig deep within and not ask, "What about God?"

I think that the incompleteness of this world is very evident. The death rate continues to be one per person and destruction is neverending. We have an idea of completeness, of perfection, of holiness, yet none of them takes form. "well that's just the course of nature...", and that's my point. That is the course of this world, and if there were nothing more than this world and the corruption it produces, then where would this idea of perfection, of wholeness come from? Wouldn't my thoughts simply say, "That's just the way it is" and think nothing else? But they don't, mine do not, and yours do not or else we would not be discussing this. If I was nothing more than a product of nature, then wouldn't my mind be just the same as a programmed computer? "2+2=4", say's the calculator because that's what we know to be true. Wouldn't my mind also then say, "Birth+time=death" or more accurately, "cease to exits because I see them no more"? Wouldn't it be just that absolute and no questions asked? But it doesn't. My mind believes, regardless of what this world tells me, that I am more than just walking flesh. Though I do not understand it, I still feel eternity and that must mean something. I must believe that perfection comes from a higher plane of existence because I don't see it here. There must be something wrong with this place. I believe that to accept and embrace this world in how it exists now is to embrace death and corruption. Such a mind deny's God, it's only "natural". Such a mind believes that the universe is an endless cycle of death and rebirth, yet he still believes that it is endless; a mind that rejects life without corruption. As if the universe is just a long inhale and exhale, inhale and exhale.

"I'm an atheist and I think about God all the time, not as a man, but as God." -Jameson

Truly Jameson, if you don't see a contradiction in this, I don't know what you do see. Please, don't take offense in that because I didn't say that sarcastically. Everyone knows that God exists, but not all choose to honor Him as God. For something to be about God he must first exist before it being about Him, so I guess the two are intertwined. But this is the topic, that because we can't prove Him by confining Him in what we can experiment on and we can't disprove Him because we can't find any proof to His nonexistance because our existence demands a creative existence to cause us to exist, it's about Him because both sides continue to pursue both agendas. And yes, I argue that even the simple things like food and coffee is about God. To eat food and drink coffee you would do so because you are hungry, tired or whatever. In not thanking God for what He created and provided for your nourishment, you take Him for granted and rebel against Him and did so in spite of Him. Maybe you think I'm splitting hairs but I will say again that there is nowhere you can go that God is not and nothing you have that God did not create.

And yes, this thread will probably end just as all the others do. After the many circular arguments we will eventually tire of it. But it won't take long for another one to come up because we just can't escape it, thus I have said everything is about God. Of course these things are always fun to participate in, it feels good to convey your thoughts even if it gates heated.

 

[Bladibla]

Everyone knows that God exists

No they don't actually. People arn't born with the knowledge of god, and there are of course atheists.

I guess the two are intertwined. But this is the topic, that because we can't prove Him by confining Him in what we can experiment on and..

Your right there.

..we can't disprove Him because we can't find any proof to His nonexistance because our existence demands a creative existence to cause us to exist, it's about Him because both sides continue to pursue both agendas

Why should we need to prove what humans hypothetically created? Why on Earth should we believe anything anthropomorphically without any evidence whatsoever?

 

[Jameson]

Jonny trigonometry:

did I say that God exists? I just said that Jameson's counterexample is incomplete.

I see your point, but I would not call my answer incomplete and I am content with it. The title of this thread is "EVERYTHING is about God", not most of everything or some of everything is about God. I provided a simple example of something that in no way was "about" God, using about in a conventional definition.

Jameson

 

[Jameson]

Truly Jameson, if you don't see a contradiction in this, I don't know what you do see. Please, don't take offense in that because I didn't say that sarcastically. Everyone knows that God exists, but not all choose to honor Him as God.

Hmmm... dude, I appreciate you trying to save me, but honestly you have an agenda. All you seem to want to do this thread is prove God's existense or say that those who do not recognize it can't "see" anything. I really do not feel like debating you on either, but I'll stick to the thread.

Like I said earlier and will not say again after this- even if there is a God that created the whole universe, that does not mean everything is about Him/Her. I am able to do all of these things because of God, but that does not mean everything is about God. And, just because God is everywhere, does not mean my breakfast is about Him/Her.

You are really pushing your agenda, which is fine, but if you want to debate at least rename the forum to "God's existense and how those idiots who will burn in Hell don't see it."

Jameson

 

[DM]

Yet the there is at least two constants that forever remain; “the wise and the foolish.”

And just who distinguishes “the wise and the foolish”?

Maybe it's the belief in God that keeps man from consuming himself in the deception that he can cheat death.”

I’m not entirely sure this is true in the eyes of science. That view is postulated from those that would like to be in total control of their lives and more importantly who fear death.

If it's not about God then what is it about?

It’s about survival. Are you aware of the inequities and indictments that this world exudes? Have you ever feasted your eyes on children crying for food? Adolescents working to help feed their family instead of pampering themselves in holidays and forums like we do? Where on Earth do their opportunities lie?

God who is existence, who made all things has to be the center of all things.

I’m sorry to say it but you’re awfully biased.

Without God there can be nothing, though some may argue that the idea of a god is rediculous but it is more reasonable to think that something came out of nothing.

Where did God came from?

Therefore I reject this world and the will it want's me to follow because the will of this world is corrupt.

Now you’re talking. That is inevitably life. You can’t reject it by the way, you can’t simply handle it without believing in a God.

Well if God is not philosphical, theological, mathematical, or logical, then I must contend that your existence is also just the same.

The existence in humans is philosphical, theological, mathematical, and logical in the hands of science. Science is not abstract like deities are, it is a credible source and with its absence none of what we see would exist. A prime example is technology and medicine, without the likes of mathematics, physics, biology and chemistry our standard of living would be fraught with rudimentary ways of living. Disease would have probably made us extinct by now.

So long as this world continues the way it is there will always be people who say the do or not believe in God or doesn't care either way about God. They will say I believe in God because of X and I don't believe in God because of Y and I don't care about God because X and Y has already been taken. Therefore I have come to say EVERYTHING is about God.

Awful ambiguity there. So just because I believe in God because of X or Y, and vice versa, “Everything is about God”? That is not rationalising life as it is.

 

[Jameson]

DM - Can I get an AMEN??

Jameson

 

[dswart1437]

THIS GOD "THING"

I have a lot of trouble believing in a God because I question why we have to bow and scrape, worship and pray continually or else be punished for all eternity. This sounds more like a Stalin or Hitler sicko personality, not the entity that created the vast and beautiful universe (as we know it). There is simply no sense in this "god thing".

 

[Lisa!]

could you trust scientists if they would say "we find enough reason to reject God"?
What differens does believing God make in your life?

I have a lot of trouble believing in a God because I question why we have to bow and scrape, worship and pray continually or else be punished for all eternity. This sounds more like a Stalin or Hitler sicko personality, not the entity that created the vast and beautiful universe (as we know it). There is simply no sense in this "god thing".

Well,we should find the reason of praying him.Do we pray him coz he needs to be prayed?Or we do it coz of ourselves?Does praying God have any affect
on our lives?
And I think we should know the reason and purpose of our existence.Why do we live in this world?

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

"I am able to do all of these things because of God, but that does not mean everything is about God. And, just because God is everywhere, does not mean my breakfast is about Him/Her." - Jameson

Ya know, I'm really close to agreeing with you on this. Not everything is about God, unless it is interpreted by someone to be about God. A person could interpret half of everything to be about the devil and half to be about god. Likewise a person can interpret everything to be about nothing. Another person could interpret everything to be about Carrot Top. Could it be true that the universe as we know it may never have existed had Carrot Top not existed? A person can interpret anything from anything. Clouds can look like cartoon characters to someone and look like a battle in the civil war to someone else. I guess the main idea is that, what does God interpret everything to be about (provided he exists)? If he says everything is for him, wouldn't that make him kinda egotistical and/or errogant? I guess, that's just my interpretation of someone who says that everything is for him/her. If God created the universe out of boredom, than everything really would be for him.

"And I think we should know the reason and purpose of our existence.Why do we live in this world?" - Lisa!

I think that the world is our stage, and we're all playing roles in the ultimate and greatest "movie" ever made, of which we all write our own scripts, but somehow (randomness, or chaos, ie. the hand of God) all the scripts perfectly intertwine to make a greater good through the help of God. This is just my interpretation. I may be wrong, I'd like to be right. I'm not trying to persuade people to believe in God, I'm just an optimist.

 

[theblueprint_Nick]

Jameson

Hmmm... dude, I appreciate you trying to save me, but honestly you have an agenda.

Forgive me Jameson, My agenda is obvious to say the least and I pushed the specifics of it a little bit, but I couldn't help but to put that in there when you made that comment about thinking about God as God. Surely you can see why I would have utilized this.

Also, if you are not comfortable with my approach, then you should come up with your own thread about how you like to discern agendas and presume that we can have a discussion about God without having an agenda. Did this come as a surprise to you that I have said what I've said so far? The topic I have posted is quite broad. It's clear that you can't talk about God unless you have absolute beliefs about who He is. And this I know because without a dogmatic belief, God becomes less than who God really is. He becomes our object of interrogation and no answer at this point becomes suitable.

DM

And just who distinguishes “the wise and the foolish”?

I think I've spoken enough to reveal that. God. But I think you already knew I would say that.

Now you’re talking. That is inevitably life. You can’t reject it by the way, you can’t simply handle it without believing in a God.

And you're right. Death escapes no man. My fear of death has lead me to this and my logic behind it has guided me to believe that no matter how hard we try, we cannot perfect a dying world. So if we can't, it's futile. Why must death be a reality? You may think of me as using God as a crutch, which surely you do because I once thought the same thing and death may be ignored and just be accepted in your mind as a fact of life and though you may be comfortable with that for now, I doubt you will have that comfort when you begin to wither away in old age. I'm trying to use a fear tactic here, I'm just saying that when I go to a funeral I see many people who for the few moments of that time of watching the body in the casket, wallow in darkness at the thought of death even though they seemed reasonably comfortable with it when it wasn't so close to them. What I reject is that death is the end of a man, not the reality of it.

Johnny_trig

A person could interpret half of everything to be about the devil and half to be about god. Likewise a person can interpret everything to be about nothing. Another person could interpret everything to be about Carrot Top. Could it be true that the universe as we know it may never have existed had Carrot Top not existed? A person can interpret anything from anything.

I have written in another post about a subject concerning something like this. Most people say that they believe in God because the universe simply exists, so when we think of the creator, we don't think of something that can really defined in a finite sense. So anyone who can come to the conclusion that the universe was created by a purple unicorn just isn't very logical. How many think four legs, a horn and purple skin when they think God? Not very many. A higher power that exists above His creation makes more sense.

Something is metioned here about God demanding recognition and worship and how horrible He must be to demand such a thing. Who does He think He is? I've said it before, He's God. Being compared to Stalin or Hitler is bogus. They are men, mortal, corruptable who demand that they should be treated like God should be treated. God would be the only one worthy of that. Call it arrogant, and it makes sense, but that's what happens when you imagine God to be like man.

Ultimately the whole point of this was to maybe say something that perhaps you haven't heard before. If God can't be defined, or if God isn't the one who defines, then nobody is right or wrong, there is no truth or lies, and there is really no point to anything because we're just going to the grave anyhow.

 

[Jameson]

Forgive me Jameson, My agenda is obvious to say the least and I pushed the specifics of it a little bit, but I couldn't help but to put that in there when you made that comment about thinking about God as God. Surely you can see why I would have utilized this.

Also, if you are not comfortable with my approach, then you should come up with your own thread about how you like to discern agendas and presume that we can have a discussion about God without having an agenda. Did this come as a surprise to you that I have said what I've said so far? The topic I have posted is quite broad. It's clear that you can't talk about God unless you have absolute beliefs about who He is. And this I know because without a dogmatic belief, God becomes less than who God really is. He becomes our object of interrogation and no answer at this point becomes suitable.

Well I'm happy that you've been civilized about your agenda and you admit it upfront. The point I was making was I participated in this thread to discuss the topic and I felt like you were sucking me in so you could tell me I'm not saved, I'm going to hell, etc. I fully respect your beliefs but I really don't have the desire to sit here and get preached to.

I think we've all come to the conclusion that the statement "everything is about God" is very subjective and because we all are looking at this from contrasting extremes, we probably will not get anywhere further in this discussion. At least that's my thought.

Ultimately the whole point of this was to maybe say something that perhaps you haven't heard before. If God can't be defined, or if God isn't the one who defines, then nobody is right or wrong, there is no truth or lies, and there is really no point to anything because we're just going to the grave anyhow.

This is a common argument to atheists, saying if their is no afterlife then why live? It doesn't matter, we'll just die right? Well not everyone looks at life that way. Personally, I want to contribute something to the world that would be helpfull in any way or form. Also, I want to have a loving family. I don't believe I will live in heaven once I die, but I still have plenty to live for. Some people aren't capable of grasping purpose in life without God.

Nick, I'm assuming that's your name, in an earlier post you said to me that everyone knows God exists, but some just do not recongnize this. That is a very bold statement. You seem so convinced, like you can prove it. Do you believe this is so?

 

[Jameson]

And also, I wasn't saying I could think of God as God. To be honest I was really unclear on what you saying. I was pointing out that I don't imagine a human as God and imagine what that person would do if he/she was God... just to clarify.

Jameson

 

[Lisa!]

"And I think we should know the reason and purpose of our existence.Why do we live in this world?" - Lisa!

I think that the world is our stage, and we're all playing roles in the ultimate and greatest "movie" ever made, of which we all write our own scripts, but somehow (randomness, or chaos, ie. the hand of God) all the scripts perfectly intertwine to make a greater good through the help of God. This is just my interpretation. I may be wrong, I'd like to be right. I'm not trying to persuade people to believe in God, I'm just an optimist.

Interesting but what if we don't like our roles and why do we have to play?
You know actors play in order to make money or get other things or because they like acting but what about us?
Do you want to say God j creates us because he needs some actors?

 

[DM]

I think I've spoken enough to reveal that. God. But I think you already knew I would say that.

In a religious or creationism mindset, I suppose you're right, however in a scientific way of thinking that implication is hugely paradoxical. You see if humans are dependent to God so we're able to distinguish “the wise and the foolish, we would have never propel ourselves forward the way we did and continue to do so. Instead we would sit down and contemplate on whether God would endorse new discoveries and patents to contribute our society. The world would never evolve.

You also mention in this thread that "If it were possible to calculate all these things then the future would be nothing more than an inevitable result of action and reaction, cause and effect." That already happens without calculating all things.

2+2=4", say's the calculator because that's what we know to be true

True because it's credible, true because it can be tested and more fundementally true because it's used in different events and scenarios; from counting money to launching a space shuttle. It works.

The death rate continues to be one per person and destruction is neverending.

Destruction in this world is now more about sectarianism and not secularism, how do you explain that? it's about religion isn't it? it's about believing in deities is it not? pluralism will always be wrecked because of different religion orthodoxies, they have proved and continue to prove cataclysmic.

And you're right. Death escapes no man. My fear of death has lead me to this and my logic behind it has guided me to believe that no matter how hard we try, we cannot perfect a dying world.

That's about escapism and indeed fear. I can only reiterate, there are others in this world who suffer and fear at the same time, those cases are much worse than yours or mine.

 

[Jonny_trigonometry]

"Interesting but what if we don't like our roles and why do we have to play?
You know actors play in order to make money or get other things or because they like acting but what about us?
Do you want to say God j creates us because he needs some actors?" - Lisa!

I've been depressed before and I wished that my parents got an abortion rather than try to raise another child. Sometimes I've wished that I'd never been born so that I didn't have to feel depression, or feel anything at all. Maybe God wants to see people struggle with these thoughts. Some actors do it only for the money, some do it only because they like playing a specific role, some actors hate what they do and regret going to hollywood in the first place. Actors do things for many different reasons. The worst thing to do is think that you are playing a specifc role and must abide by it. You can do anything you want. You may not know who you really are until you view yourself doing and saying things. I still don't know who I really am, but I've become aware of many aspects of my personality through the years, almost like I'm not just an actor, but also an audience member watching the character that I call me. You get to put your character (yourself) in situations just to see how he/she will react, and based on those reactions you plan other situations. I see this as a form of entertainment, I may feel bad or good, but nonetheless all my experiances keep me company when I think back at them. I still haven't answered your question though...

why do we have to play? hmm... I admit, the whole "world is our stage" idea doesn't fully satisfy me either. It's not the best analogy. All I can say is I know what you mean, I've asked that question before. I don't have an answer for you besides next time you're doing something you like, ask yourself the same question and see how you answer it then.

 

[Mental Gridlock]

theblueprint_Nick :

You have explained how Everything is about God provided that he exists and that those who don't believe it are in defiance of reality. But the other side of the coin is that you must show, in order to prove your argument, that "everything is about God" is true provided that God DOES NOT exist, unless you can prove that GOD EXISTS. You have half of an argument.

 

[Lisa!]

Maybe...

Sometimes I've wished that I'd never been born so that I didn't have to feel depression, or feel anything at all. Maybe God wants to see people struggle with these thoughts.

I don't know why I feel so sad when I read what you wrote.maybe because I think just like you.
This is my question always:why do we have to tolerate this life?
And the answer is because of God.
But why I have to tolerate all problems because of smeone who doen't care about my situation at all.he knows that I have so many troubles and he's able to solve them but he doesn't.They say he loves you even more than what you or parents do but I say I can't believe it.So I nag a lot about my situation and start arguing with God.
and then I feel better.I remember some events in past that I thought it couldn't have been worse but then it turned to be so nice to me.I lost sth but get a better thing later.and sometimes inverse...
I remember this quote"our wisdom is a kind of madness in compare with God wisdom."
And that's true.really true.we shoud find what's the reason of our existence and then we are able to know God better.
maybe we came to this world to prove sth.maybe we came here to prove our love to God.you know this is a wonderful world and there are lots of temptation whish sometimes cause we do sth against God's rules and we're here to prove that we stay in love with God and we never do sth against his will.maybe...
I'm still in doubt but I'm trying to know"what's the reason of my existence"then I could know"who am I and what I'm looking for."

 

[Huckleberry]

How can everything be about God if nobody can prove there is a God? Which God is everything about? Your God? How do you know your God is the only God? Does your God talk to you? If he doesn't talk to you directly then how do you know what he wants you to do?

This all relies on faith, not reason. Nick's argument is based in faith and can't be argued with using reason. Nick may believe that everything in his life happens because it is a part of God's blueprint for the universe. Unless someone can disprove God then there is a possibility that he is correct. But also, until someone can prove the existence of God he could also be wrong. Seems pointless to me, and debates like this in history have ended up at the point of a sword or a public burning or hanging. If one truly desires peace then it is best to let people make their own decisions based on their faith.

If God were proven then people would not need faith anymore. God could be rationalised. Without faith then how could we choose to obey God of our own apparently free will? By trying to prove the existence of God religion defeats itself, just as science does trying to disprove God. If religion tries to prove anything it only disproves God, and if science proves anything then they work to prove God. This is why religion relies on faith and science relies on reason.

I come to this conclusion just based on the definitions of science and religion from the thread Is Science a Religion? Conclusions based on definitions are generally pretty weak, but what can be said reasonably about God?

 

[DM]

If God were proven then people would not need faith anymore.

By trying to prove the existence of God religion defeats itself, just as science does trying to disprove God.

What if God was hinted as a superior being just to create a mental law? What happens when you erase God from our lives? I think it's fair to extrapolate mayham and total destruction on Earth since 80 percent of us believe in a God. Besides enshrined laws that keeps us alert of what we can and cannot do, it is moral values (i.e what happens if I burn in hell) that keeps us sane and hence less violence is commited.

 

[Radagast97]

I used to be an atheist and I would have told you then that I never thought about God. I believe in God now, and so looking back in retrospect I can see that what I was doing I did in spite of God, knowing He exists, and doing what I did to show my distaste for Him and in my ultimate act of contempt, deny Him. I didn't believe in God but when I was full of wrath I did. When I was full of curses I charged Him with all of them. I would have never admitted that even to myself but I know it to be true now.

Either you believed in god or didn't. If you were full of rage at him, then, by definition, you were not an atheist. To say you were doesn't sound like you were being honest with yourself.

There are certainly atheist that rage against theism, but that's not the same thing.

Regards,
Glenn

 

[Radagast97]

What happens when you erase God from our lives? I think it's fair to extrapolate mayham and total destruction on Earth since 80 percent of us believe in a God.

This is a conclusion without supporting argument. Buddhists have lived in this world for some time with few believing in a god, or certainly no god like you define, all without mayhem and destruction. Typically with a great deal less wars in the name of religion, as a matter of fact.

Besides enshrined laws that keeps us alert of what we can and cannot do, it is moral values (i.e what happens if I burn in hell) that keeps us sane and hence less violence is commited.

You are again assuming that people will be immoral without laws handed down by god. Buddhist and atheist tend to contradict that notion. Assuming you don't define immorality in terms of your specific god's rules, but rather those used by most of humanity.

Glenn

 

[DM]

Buddhists have lived in this world for some time with few believing in a god, or certainly no god like you define, all without mayhem and destruction. Typically with a great deal less wars in the name of religion, as a matter of fact.

That's completely different, they did not believe in a God. They adapted to secular beliefs.

Typically with a great deal less wars in the name of religion, as a matter of fact.

Recent wars do not coincide with your view.

You are again assuming that people will be immoral without laws handed down by god.

What is a religious person without moral laws handed down by their deity? I am not talking about secular people that learn to live moraly without a God. I have read some would reject life as it is if they learned God did not exist.

 

[Jameson]

theblueprint_Nick :

You have explained how Everything is about God provided that he exists and that those who don't believe it are in defiance of reality. But the other side of the coin is that you must show, in order to prove your argument, that "everything is about God" is true provided that God DOES NOT exist, unless you can prove that GOD EXISTS. You have half of an argument.

He hasn't proven anything. He's simply giving us his opinion under his interpretation of the word "about".

 

[theblueprint_Nick]

Yes, Jameson. You are correct. I guess I wasn't specifically clear about "about". About, I say, would mean all things to be done either for God or against God. Let me get micro for a second. I brush my teeth in the morning so that when I go out into the world I can go in a presentable, clean manner in hopes that I might attract or render the attention of another to perhaps tell them about God. If I go out with foul breath then not many would be in favor of speaking with me face to face. It might be said that they should be brushed simply because they are dirty. True, but when I brushed them before I believed, I wanted them clean for my sake, but now I want them clean for God's sake. Anything put into motion that is not ULTIMATELY for God is against God. That is my claim. Ultimately I believe God holds the truth, establishes truth and anything outside His truth is a lie and false. I also believe that every religion outside of mine is false and so negating the thought that we all worship the same God because we don't. I believe they are false because they center around what man can do for himself with(maybe) God's help and not what God can do for a man, period. Self-realization, transcendency, and all such things I reject because it's man-centered.

Also Jameson, If I did not KNOW that the heart of every man knows of God's existence then my belief would be in vain. I do not hold to the common definition of "belief", but what I believe about God I know and not just believe.

If I presented what I believe to be A truth and not THE truth then I would not differ from any other religion or belief. If what I presented did not offend the heart of every person that did not believe then it would not be what I claim it to be. The truth isn't something that can be contorted to fit the ideal of an individuals perception of "truth" because doing so is a blatant contradiction. The truth hurts to the core of every man(I mean man/woman) because it reveals falsehood. Now if I say this is truth or that is truth then it can be quickly dismissed because I am but I man. But if I say that God says this is the truth, then it becomes something to look into. It is a bold thing to say and it must endure the test of scrutiny and to some it appears as though it doesn't but the subject still stands through the ages. One thing that still remains is a man who seeks an answer that forever remains unanswered because what he seeks he already knows and what he says he asks is, "Does God exist?" but what he really asks in his heart is, "How can I become God?"

I know how this looks. "Why isn't it clear?", "Why sound so evasive?". My purpose is not to give "proof" that God exists because like I said before, you cannot measure omnipotence. That's what is sought to be done in proving/disproving God. God is not measured in the scientific method or a mathematical formula.

This all relies on faith, not reason. Nick's argument is based in faith and can't be argued with using reason.

- Huckleberry

I receive my reason from my faith. I am using reason but just not your inner workings of reason. A statement such as this is a quick way to discredit a message of faith. I must argue then, if I receive my reason from my faith, do you then receive your reason by means of no faith? If you have no faith and believe only what you want to believe without God to tell you what you should or should not not do, then who's to say that murder is wrong? Common sense? Conscience? Social majority? It made sense to Hitler to wipe out the Jews and all who were not part of his arian race. It made sense to the many who were under the sway of his deceptive influence.

If one truly desires peace then it is best to let people make their own decisions based on their faith.

People are sadistically murdered under the faith of satanic cults. Are they best left alone to make their own decisions? If justice crys out, then who's justice should we render? Yours? Mine? Or do you punish them but tell them at the same time, "You weren't really wrong at all. Your way of life is just not as good as mine and you're really just a victim of discrimination under the powers that are currently in authority." Communism is strictly atheist because it shifts the position of the state as God. It demands all reliance to be on the state. No matter how you look at it, the leaders of a fascist country, whether it be lead by one man or a few men, want to be God and denying Him as they may, they want His authority. Everything they do is about God, or rather, about becoming like God, rebelling against his ordained order of things and mans position in the world.

These are the things that need to be discussed because like I said, this is what it's really about and it's also the most controversial. :) If it was between religion and politics I think that religion is by far the most sensitive.

 

[Huckleberry]

I receive my reason from my faith. I am using reason but just not your inner workings of reason. A statement such as this is a quick way to discredit a message of faith. I must argue then, if I receive my reason from my faith, do you then receive your reason by means of no faith? If you have no faith and believe only what you want to believe without God to tell you what you should or should not not do, then who's to say that murder is wrong? Common sense? Conscience? Social majority? It made sense to Hitler to wipe out the Jews and all who were not part of his arian race. It made sense to the many who were under the sway of his deceptive influence.

I don't believe that a person can reason from faith. Their epistemologies are mirror images of each other. Faith does not require reason and reason does not require faith. As far as I know, God himself does not direct the action of man. If he does then it is without our knowledge. This goes into the argument of determinism and free will.

Who is to say that murder is wrong? This is a moral dilemma that can be approached using either reason or faith. One could say that murder is wrong because God's scripture says it is wrong and that requires no reason. A satanistic cult could claim that their scriptures say it is right and that also would require no reason. Hitler could argue his belief that murder is right based on genetic purity and he would argue his point using reason. One could also argue that it is wrong to commit murder from a social stability standpoint or human rights, and nowhere in their argument would be anything that requires belief in God.

You believe in God and that is fine. It seems that you believe that belief in God is what motivates all people to do anything. It is fine that you believe that, but it does not make it true. In order to communicate the truth you need to provide evidence. You would need to provide proof of God. That is why I wrote my previous post the way I did. You cannot expect people to accept your faith based argument without reason, and on the same note, nobody can disprove your faith with reason unless they also can disprove the existence of God. This is why these debates rage out of control on a global scale.

These are the things that need to be discussed because like I said, this is what it's really about and it's also the most controversial.

This is what it is really about for you. A person who does not believe in God does not use God as the motivation for their actions. You can believe they are influenced by God unknowingly, but to try to force anyone to agree with you is wrong. Religion shouldn't try to prove its faith is valid. It should just believe it. Let scientists use reason and skepticism to reveal the universe.

 

[Lisa!]

People are sadistically murdered under the faith of satanic cults. Are they best left alone to make their own decisions? If justice crys out, then who's justice should we render? Yours? Mine? Or do you punish them but tell them at the same time, "You weren't really wrong at all. Your way of life is just not as good as mine and you're really just a victim of discrimination under the powers that are currently in authority." Communism is strictly atheist because it shifts the position of the state as God. It demands all reliance to be on the state. No matter how you look at it, the leaders of a fascist country, whether it be lead by one man or a few men, want to be God and denying Him as they may, they want His authority. Everything they do is about God, or rather, about becoming like God, rebelling against his ordained order of things and mans position in the world.

You know I think everything is about human.Why do human try to do sth against/for God?I think coz of himself.I can't explain it well but you know human is so selfish.He believes or denies God coz he loves himself.God don't need us but we need him.he created us selfish but gave us the chance to step out of our sel-love circle if we try.At first we accept him coz we're selfish and don't want to hurt ourselves in this world and also the other world .some people just worship God coz they're afraid of their destiny here and after death.but some of people after trying hard,get the place that they worship God coz they love him.they think they have no existence and everything is God.
some people denies God coz they want to do whatever they want in this world,they try to reject God and then there would be nothing to limit them about things they want to do.
and I think most of people in authority try to have God's power.some of them try to do it by misusing people's religious beliefs.they pretend to be so religious but they aren't.

 

[Radagast97]

What happens when you erase God from our lives? I think it's fair to extrapolate mayham and total destruction on Earth since 80 percent of us believe in a God.

Buddhists have lived in this world for some time with few believing in a god, or certainly no god like you define, all without mayhem and destruction. Typically with a great deal less wars in the name of religion, as a matter of fact.

That's completely different, they did not believe in a God. They adapted to secular beliefs.

So if you don't originally believe in a god, then not having it doesn't result in mayhem and total destruction, but having it and losing it does. A broad statement, with no support, and something that seems to fly in the face of the loss of belief in god in Europe, and more distantly, in the Soviet Union, with the imposition of communism.

Recent wars do not coincide with your view.

Hmm, does that mean you can show me a war that was fought in the name of Buddhism, or that there are no wars fought in the name of religion today (hint, perhaps we should direct our attention to the middle east for this one).

What is a religious person without moral laws handed down by their deity?

I think I fall into that category. As someone that's been working toward the priesthood (Zen Buddhism) for nine years, having no belief in a diety or god, yet living a moral life. I don't consider priest or intendent priest as secular.

I am not talking about secular people that learn to live moraly without a God. I have read some would reject life as it is if they learned God did not exist.

Yes, and I've read that some would learn to fly if they just knew how to breath correctly (TM). Just because you've read it doesn't mean it's true. Provide some support for such a statement, if you want to make such a statement. Otherwise, it's just another unsupported internet assertion.

Glenn

 

[theblueprint_Nick]

What you say, Huckleberry, I fully and wholeheartedly reject. You are under the impression that all religion is unintelligable, requiring no thought, simply acting blindly without the use of reason.

You can believe they are influenced by God unknowingly, but to try to force anyone to agree with you is wrong.

That's a pretty bold statement. You sound a little like me, almost completely certain that this is indeed wrong. Can you prove it?

 

[hypnagogue]

It's clear that you can't talk about God unless you have absolute beliefs about who He is. And this I know because without a dogmatic belief, God becomes less than who God really is.

It should also be clear from PF policy that you can't argue from absolute, dogmatic beliefs about God in these forums. It's evident at this point that your methods and concerns in this thread far outpace the limitations we've set on theistic discussions.