What is the voltage at the end of the circuit?

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    Circuit Voltage
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding voltage in a circuit, specifically focusing on the potential difference between various points, including the positive and negative terminals of a battery, and the implications of measuring voltage with a voltmeter. Participants explore conceptual questions about voltage, electric potential, and the role of resistors in a circuit.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the voltage from the positive terminal to the negative terminal, with varying opinions on whether it is 9V or 0V based on different interpretations of electric potential.
  • There is a discussion about the electric potential at the negative terminal, with some asserting it can be defined as zero, while others argue that potentials are relative and depend on the chosen reference point.
  • Participants discuss the reading of a voltmeter connected across the battery terminals, with some asserting it should read 9V, while others express confusion about why it wouldn't read 0V if there are no resistors present.
  • One participant emphasizes that voltage can exist without resistors, while another points out the internal resistance of the battery as a factor in voltage measurement.
  • There is a clarification that voltage is defined as the difference between two points, and thus questions about single points are seen as problematic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the voltage readings and the concept of electric potential, indicating that multiple competing views remain without a clear consensus on some of the fundamental questions posed.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions include assumptions about the circuit's configuration and the role of internal resistance in batteries, which may not be fully resolved. The definitions of voltage and electric potential are also highlighted as potentially ambiguous depending on the reference points chosen.

Luke0034
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I have a some questions that will help me understand voltage better.

1. What is the voltage from the positive terminal to the negative terminal? Why?
2. What is the voltage from point 7 to point 8? Why?
3. Is the electric potential at the very end of the circuit (negative terminal) zero? Why/Why not?
4. If you connect one lead of voltmeter to the positive terminal of the battery, and one lead to the negative terminal of the battery (no resistors), what would the voltage read? I know it'll either be 9V or 0V. I think the answer is 9V, but conceptually shouldn't it be 0V because the electric potential at the two points should be the same, because there are no resistors, just the voltmeter. So x volts minus x volts = 0 volts

This isn't homework btw, I'm just trying to work some stuff out in my head to help me conceptualize voltage and understand it better.
 
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Luke0034 said:
Is the electric potential at the very end of the circuit (negative terminal) zero?
Potentials are relative. You can define any point as zero potential, then all other points are relative to that.
Luke0034 said:
there are no resistors, just the voltmeter. So x volts minus x volts = 0 volts
Which is why voltmeters contain very high resistors. You do not want much current going through them or the reading will be wrong.

For your first two questions, maybe not homework, but I still think it would be useful for you to try to give your own answers first.
 
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1. 15 V is what I think
2. 0 V is what I think.

And this definitely isn't homework. I'll pulled a pic off google images and made these questions. I could care less about the value if the answer, I want to know the reasoning behind it. Is 1 and 2 correct and why?
 
Luke0034 said:
1. 15 V is what I think
The battery is of 9V.
Luke0034 said:
. 0 V is what I think.
Right.
 
Luke0034 said:
1. What is the voltage from the positive terminal to the negative terminal? Why?
Voltage is measured as the difference in potential between two points. A voltmeter has two leads which must be connected to the two points whose potential difference is to be measured. Any two points may be chosen. One of this point is treated as a reference point. We have a very similarity situation when we try to measure a height of an object. We need a reference point. The most common reference point is "above mean sea level". But when you measure the height of the table in your house the floor now becomes your reference point.
So, the voltage from the positive terminal to the negative terminal is equal to -9V. This means that the negative terminal voltage is 9V lower than the positive terminal voltage.

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/rys0-1-jpg.69517/

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/0-1-png.102221/

Try read this
http://www.ittc.ku.edu/~jstiles/312/handouts/312_Introduction_package.pdf
And watch this


Luke0034 said:
2. What is the voltage from point 7 to point 8? Why?
Notice that point 7 and 8 are the same point. In fact, all points starting from 5,6,7 and 8 are the same point in the circuit (represent the same point).
This means that there is no voltage between thus points. So, the answer is 0V, no difference in potential between those two points. They are at the same electric potential.
Luke0034 said:
4. If you connect one lead of voltmeter to the positive terminal of the battery, and one lead to the negative terminal of the battery (no resistors), what would the voltage read? I know it'll either be 9V or 0V. I think the answer is 9V, but conceptually shouldn't it be 0V because the electric potential at the two points should be the same, because there are no resistors, just the voltmeter. So x volts minus x volts = 0 volts
No, voltage can exist without the resistor. So, the answer is 9V.
 
Just to point this out, in the stable state, you can mentally just treat parts of the circuit as a black box.

So, imagine the Voltmeter actually showed 0V between the terminals. Where would any power come from then? That is, if the Voltmeter "feels" 0V, why would the resistors down the line (which are in parallel to the Voltmeter) feel anything? With 0V you get zero current.
So, just by that argument alone, thee must be voltage between the terminals.
 
Luke0034 said:
4. If you connect one lead of voltmeter to the positive terminal of the battery, and one lead to the negative terminal of the battery (no resistors), what would the voltage read? I know it'll either be 9V or 0V. I think the answer is 9V, but conceptually shouldn't it be 0V because the electric potential at the two points should be the same, because there are no resistors, just the voltmeter. So x volts minus x volts = 0 volts

Jony130 said:
No, voltage can exist without the resistor. So, the answer is 9V.
Not quite ... you forgot that there is internal resistance in the battery ( any battery) and that is what you are measuring the P.D. across
 
Luke0034 said:
attachment.php?attachmentid=43390&stc=1&d=1328146169.gif


I have a some questions that will help me understand voltage better.

1. What is the voltage from the positive terminal to the negative terminal? Why?
2. What is the voltage from point 7 to point 8? Why?
3. Is the electric potential at the very end of the circuit (negative terminal) zero? Why/Why not?
4. If you connect one lead of voltmeter to the positive terminal of the battery, and one lead to the negative terminal of the battery (no resistors), what would the voltage read? I know it'll either be 9V or 0V. I think the answer is 9V, but conceptually shouldn't it be 0V because the electric potential at the two points should be the same, because there are no resistors, just the voltmeter. So x volts minus x volts = 0 volts

This isn't homework btw, I'm just trying to work some stuff out in my head to help me conceptualize voltage and understand it better.

1. 9V. That is the difference in potential between the points as indicated by the battery voltage
2. 0V. They're directly connected, thus there is no difference between them (assuming negligible resistance in the wire)
3. The question can't be answered as constructed. You're asking the voltage "at the end of the circuit"; i.e. a single point. Voltage is always defined as the difference between two points. The negative terminal has a 0V difference to itself as well as points 5-8; a 9V difference to the positive terminal as well as points 1-4.
4. The resistors are irrelevant to that test (at least in the moment you take the reading; if connected a circuit will form, current will begin to flow, and your voltage reading will drop accordingly). The voltage across the battery terminals is 9V. The electric potential between the two points is not the same; they are separated by the battery itself.

It wasn't on your list of questions but just one other point, the values of the resistors are irrelevant to your questions. Positive-negative, 1-8, 2-7, 3,-6, and 4-5 are all 9V.
 

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