News What lessons can we learn from the Charlie Hebdo shooting?

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The Charlie Hebdo shooting resulted in the deaths of at least twelve individuals, including prominent journalists and cartoonists, with the attackers reportedly shouting, "We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad." Discussions center around the motivations behind the attack, with some suggesting it was religiously motivated while others caution against jumping to conclusions without further evidence. The incident has sparked debates about freedom of speech and the potential rise in anti-Muslim sentiment in France. Participants express a mix of outrage and sadness, highlighting the broader implications for society and the challenges of addressing terrorism. The consensus remains that understanding the attackers' motivations will require further investigation and context.
  • #51
I_am_learning said:
I compared "those who resort to violence in retaliation to ridicule/criticism/non-belief" to a biting dog, not all of the Muslims.
And I never said its 'okay' for the dog to bite me for making a face, but a dog does what a dog does, and if you can't correct, you may as-well euthanize it. But, having the knowledge that you live around dogs, who would bite for making a face, eating your breakfast, or just randomly, you can reduce your chance of getting bitten by stopping doing the least important thing: making a face.
No, you train the dog to stop the behavior or have him put down, you do not accept it. He could attack some innocent child. So please stop the ridiculous analogy.
 
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  • #52
I_am_learning said:
I compared "those who resort to violence in retaliation to ridicule/criticism/non-belief" to a biting dog, not all of the Muslims.

I, too, did not mean all Muslims. I meant those Muslims who support killing for a caricature.

And I never said its 'okay' for the dog to bite me for making a face, but a dog does what a dog does

That's my point: they are HUMANS, not animals. I am against keeping them, or anyone else, to a lower moral standard than the rest of us. It's not okay for me to kill for a cartoon. It's not okay for THEM to do this. If they want to do that, we should not avoid drawing caricatures - we should find these people and throw them to jails.
 
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  • #53
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  • #55
Evo said:
No, you train the dog to stop the behavior or have him put down, you do not accept it. He could attack some innocent child. So stop the ridiculous analogy.
I am sorry if my analogy is offending you.
I will try to answer without using the analogy.
I fully agree that drawing those cartoons should be allowable.
I fully agree that what the terrorists did should be condemned.
My belief was that, if drawing those cartoons, although allowable by french law, is a sure way to get attacked, maybe its not worth it?
What is to be gained through those cartoons besides laughter and ridicule, to worth the risk?
Maybe be I miss the point because I am not a consumer of ridicule-jokes and maybe I am just too coward.

Thanks.
 
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  • #56
nikkkom said:
those cartoonists drew cartoons about Jews too!
And Christians, and ...
 
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  • #57
I_am_learning said:
Maybe be I miss the point because I am not a consumer of ridicule-jokes and maybe I am just too coward.
How many people are you willing to have running every aspect of your life? Westerners are prone to telling such people to "get over themselves." Live and let live, offend and be offended --- these things are all a matter of personal choice. I'll go out of my way to be civil, not profane another's religion, but I'll not have my life run or dictated by that religion.
 
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  • #58
I_am_learning said:
What is to be gained through those cartoons besides laughter and ridicule, to worth the risk?.
The fact that in a free society, we do not have to live in fear of religious persecution.
 
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  • #60
Evo said:
The fact that in a free society, we do not have to live in fear of religious persecution.
Removing the fear of religious persecution is a great cause indeed, and I salute Charlie Hebdo for the bravery to fight for it.

Bystander said:
I'll go out of my way to be civil, not profane another's religion
Like talked above, it seems that once in a while, somebody has to profane a̶n̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶i̶g̶i̶o̶n̶ religions, to establish that you should be allowed to do that.
 
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  • #63
DavidSnider said:
http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/07/media/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-media-mohammed-cartoons/index.html

Almost nobody will show the cartoons.
This is appalling, how can one make up a religion, then make rules that apply to those that do not belong to that religion? This is cowardice, not respect. The rules of their religion only apply to those that choose to believe in that religion, they do not apply to me or anyone else not belonging to that religion. The insanity has to stop.
 
  • #64
When "The Book of Mormon" play came out (by the creators of South Park) which ridiculed Mormons the church bought an advertisement in the playbill. This is how civilized people react to criticism.
 
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  • #65
Dotini said:
Agreed. We need a less obvious way to end the violence, but what is it? Perhaps a time machine and a little chat with Sykes and Picot? Really, it all began at the Crusades.
We may just have to wait 30 more years. The Middle East has had value to the West since the Crusades -- then for religious reasons, now for oil. In 30 years or so, we won't have any more reason to try to engage them (positively or negatively), so the conflicts may just evaporate due to lack of interest.
 
  • #66
"Quit trying to forcibly convert me, or die"
 
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  • #67
nikkkom said:
It's quite easy to end this kind of violence, as soon as you remove ideological blinders that "all religions are equal" and "police can't racially or religiously profile people".

Governments should take the threat of Islamist terror seriously. They should start serious counter-espionage operations against them.
I'm not sure it would be easy, but we do take it serously and we have had good success on that front. Al Qaeda peaked on 9/11/01 (not too far above 8/7/98) and has been in decline ever since 9/11 caused us to take notice and action. If this attack proves to be Al Qaeda coordinated (some analysis is suggesting it may be), it would be the first successful al Qaeda attack on Western soil since 9/11 -- and not for lack of trying.
As in: bugging mosques with mics and cameras. Why is it not okay, again?
Be...cause...it's...illegal? Why is it illegal? 4th Amendment? Frankly, this line of discussion is a little disturbing to me.
Finding terrorists via undercover agents pretending to sell weapons/explosives, or disseminating extremist Islamist literature.
They have and have been quite successful. Example (not Al Qaeda):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Bronx_terrorism_plot
 
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  • #68
Bill Donohue, the president of the Catholic league comments, after the requisite condemnation of the Charlie murders that

...StephaneCharbonnier, the paper’s publisher, was killed today in the slaughter. It is too bad that he didn’t understand the role he played in his tragic death. In 2012, when asked why he insults Muslims, he said, “Muhammad isn’t sacred to me.” Had he not been so narcissistic, he may still be alive. Muhammad isn’t sacred to me, either, but it would never occur to me to deliberately insult Muslims by trashing him.

And so it occurs to me to deliberately insult Bill Donohue and say he's a vulgar fool. Vulgar, for taking this moment to blame Chabonnier in part for his own murder. Foolish, for pursuing his own Charbonneir-offending Catholic sensitivities in lieu of the enormously larger issue of the murderous threat to freedom of speech and religion, all while he sits as the president of the Catholic league no less.
 
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  • #69
I_am_learning said:
So many revenge-violence have had occurred due to ridiculing of the ISLAM or Prophet Muhammad. I have't heard violence in retaliation on a non-ridiculing and factual articles comparing and contrasting the problems in Islam.
"Satanic Verses"? In any case:
Freedom of expression is necessary for advancement of mankind and to challenge the state, but is freedom of ridicule really necessary? Ok, let's not modify the law on freedom of expression to exclude ridicule, because the demarcation might be difficult and prone to abuse...
You do understand that pretty well, but note that it isn't just difficult: the problem is that it requires a government office (probably the FCC) to monitor and judge speech. That's just not kosher in a society that values freedom of speech. (I need to get back to that "Interview" thread...)
[qutoe] ...but can't everybody agree to use their own common sense and not ridicule the ISLAM? [/quote]
Absolutely not - that's not common sense, it is surrender of freedom.
For example, If your dog would bite you every-time you make a face to it, isn't it wise to stop doing it?
That's a really poorly chosen analogy for making your point: dogs who bite people a lot get put down.
 
  • #71
DavidSnider said:
When "The Book of Mormon" play came out (by the creators of South Park) which ridiculed Mormons the church bought an advertisement in the playbill. This is how civilized people react to criticism.
It says "You've seen the play, now read the book." I was very impressed by that.
 
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  • #72
Apparently - Youngest Suspect in Charlie Hebdo Attack Turns Himself In (?)
https://gma.yahoo.com/12-dead-terrorist-attack-paris-satirical-newspaper-162351662--abc-news-topstories.html

How the Paris Attack on Charlie Hebdo Unfolded
https://gma.yahoo.com/paris-attack-charlie-hebdo-unfolded-210140968--abc-news-topstories.html

In Paris attack, clash on whether to limit press freedom
http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attack-clash-whether-limit-press-freedom-221515060.html

The three individuals represent themselves and intolerant individuals, not the majority of Muslims.
 
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  • #74
Astronuc said:
The three individuals represent themselves and intolerant individuals, not the majority of Muslims.
What actions are the Muslim community taking to stop this? I know there have been people denouncing the atrocities, but I feel that many people know things that could turn these people in before they acted and aren't. I still remember all of the cheering from the Muslims in the streets in the Middle East when the twin Towers were brought down. Just stating fact, not passing judgement.



And the question of how much and how many people know and stay quiet.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3067562/t/chilling-tale/#.VK4fENLF9JY

We need people in the Muslim community that know or have heard things to report these to authorities if we hope to stop the killings.
 
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  • #75
Evo said:
What actions are the Muslim community doing to stop this? I know there have been people denouncing the atrocities, but I feel that many people know things that could turn these people in before they acted and aren't. I still remember all of the cheering from the Muslims in the streets in the Middle East when the twin Towers were brought down. Just stating fact, not passing judgement.
Muslims Around The World Condemn Charlie Hebdo Attack
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/07/muslims-respond-charlie-hebdo_n_6429710.html (of course, it's Huffington Post).

Charlie Hebdo killings condemned by Arab states – but hailed online by extremists
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rab-states-jihadi-extremist-sympathisers-isis

Arab League and top Muslim body condemn Paris attack
http://news.yahoo.com/arab-league-top-muslim-body-condemn-paris-attack-150207581.html

There maybe folks who knew in advance, and perhaps there are sympathizers, of Said and Cherif Kouachi. Hopefully, an investigation will explore their network or Al Qaida affiliation.
 
  • #76
Like I said a lot of lip service, but no one actually doing anything. People know, but no one is turning anyone in. If this is to be stopped, the killers need to know their plots will be turned in, that they will be stopped or caught. I don't think they have that fear right now, just IMO.

A good start would be to repeal the ridiculousness about not posting depictions of muhammad. Telling people that it's ok to do so. I'll believe that they care when they fix the problems. Actually they have no agreement that pictures aren't ok.

The permissibility of depictions of Muhammad, the founder of Islam, has long been a concern in the religion's history. Oral and written descriptions are readily accepted by all traditions of Islam, but there is disagreement about visual depictions.[1][2] The Quran does not explicitly forbid images of Muhammad, but there are a few hadith (supplemental teachings) which have explicitly prohibited Muslims from creating visual depictions of figures.[citation needed]

Most Sunni Muslims believe that visual depictions of all the prophets of Islam should be prohibited[3] and are particularly averse to visual representations of Muhammad.[4] The key concern is that the use of images can encourage idolatry.[5] In Shia Islam, however, images of Muhammad are quite common nowadays, even though Shia scholars historically were against such depictions.[4][6] Still, many Muslims who take a stricter view of the supplemental traditions will sometimes challenge any depiction of Muhammad, including those created and published by non-Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad
 
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  • #77
Hunt for 2 in French shooting that killed 12; 1 surrenders
http://news.yahoo.com/hunt-2-french-shooting-killed-040725179.html
French brothers Said and Cherif Kouachi, in their early 30s, should be considered armed and dangerous, according to a police bulletin released early Thursday. Mourad Hamyd, 18, surrendered at a police station in Charleville-Mezieres, a small town in France's eastern Champagne region, said Paris prosecutor's spokeswoman Agnes Thibault-Lecuivre. She did not offer details on Hamyd's relationship to the men, but said he turned himself in because he heard his name on the news in connection with the attack.
There is perhaps a network of sympathizers helping the Kouachi brothers, but I think it's up to the intelligence and law enforcement to discover such a network.

One could speculate that there were folks who may have known or should have known what Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were planning when the blew up the Alfred P. Murrah building in 1995 and killing 168 people and injured over 600. McVeigh struck at the US government because of some perceived wrong. Unfortunately, he killed a lot of innocent people.

I think we need to let the authorities do their work.
 
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  • #78
Astronuc said:
Hunt for 2 in French shooting that killed 12; 1 surrenders
http://news.yahoo.com/hunt-2-french-shooting-killed-040725179.html
There is perhaps a network of sympathizers helping the Kouachi brothers, but I think it's up to the intelligence and law enforcement to discover such a network.

One could speculate that there were folks who may have known or should have known what Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were planning when the blew up the Alfred P. Murrah building in 1995 and killing 168 people and injured over 600. McVeigh struck at the US government because of some perceived wrong. Unfortunately, he killed a lot of innocent people.

I think we need to let the authorities do their work.
McVeigh was a recluse, I can't believe you would use him as an example. Seriously? What does he have to do with religious killings? And how, exactly, do you expect the authorities to discover these plans without informers? Psychics?
 
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  • #79
This is really sad, wish I could talk about it.
 
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  • #80
Evo said:
Actually they have no agreement that pictures aren't ok.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

There are two different issues here: First, the depictions of Mohamed, or of the prophets in general. As you pointed out there is a disagreement about this. It is very common for Shia muslims to carry pictures of Mohamed and other Quranic prophets. The majority of Sunnis forbid that, but it's not really considered a major sin. There have been few recent films and TV series aired in Sunni majority countries that depict other prophets in the Quran, even though this is clearly forbidden in orthodox Sunni Islam.

The other issue is insulting Mohamed, which I think is what's relevant here. This is much more serious, with a story in the hadith (tradition of Mohamed) suggesting that it's punishable by death.I feel like more and more news outlets should publish the cartoons as a response to this attack.
 
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  • #81
HossamCFD said:
I feel like more and more news outlets should publish the cartoons as a response to this attack.
I've stated earlier in this thread that I go out of my way to avoid profaning other peoples' religions; this is going excessively out of the way to be offensive. The idiots who shot up Hebdo went excessively out of their way to be offended. There is going to be a thin-skinned lunatic fringe of incompetents in any religious, political, or other social group who simply do not belong at large in this world. Identify them. Isolate them. Ignore them.
 
  • #82
Bystander said:
I've stated earlier in this thread that I go out of my way to avoid profaning other peoples' religions; this is going excessively out of the way to be offensive. The idiots who shot up Hebdo went excessively out of their way to be offended. There is going to be a thin-skinned lunatic fringe of incompetents in any religious, political, or other social group who simply do not belong at large in this world. Identify them. Isolate them. Ignore them.

In general, I agree with you. And I concede that my reaction is largely emotional. But I think it's important to stress the point that religion is not sacred anymore in the west; Islam is only sacred to muslims and they should not expect non-muslims to refrain from poking fun at its symbols. People make fun of Jesus (who is even more holy to christians than Mohamed is to muslims) and Moses all the time and I think it's dangerous to actively avoid making fun of Mohamed, effectively granting muslims a special status in western society.
 
  • #83
Bystander said:
I've stated earlier in this thread that I go out of my way to avoid profaning other peoples' religions; this is going excessively out of the way to be offensive. The idiots who shot up Hebdo went excessively out of their way to be offended. There is going to be a thin-skinned lunatic fringe of incompetents in any religious, political, or other social group who simply do not belong at large in this world. Identify them. Isolate them. Ignore them.

I know many people who go out of their way to be offended, for whatever reason. Fortunately, they are/were not the weapon wielding types. Unfortunately, you can't really tell which kind they are, until after they pull the trigger. So isolating them, which I assume to mean "incarceration", would just overburden our already overburdened prison systems, with a bunch of disgruntled loud mouths.
 
  • #84
HossamCFD said:
and I think it's dangerous to actively avoid making fun of Mohamed, effectively granting muslims a special status in western society.
I agree completely. The danger in being as gratuitously reactionary as the lunatic fringe of the world's Islamic population is that the situation can be escalated to the point where that xenophobic lunatic fringe is in a position to enlist sane, civilized Moslems in a holy war against sane, civilized populations from the rest of the world who've been enlisted by their own xenophobic lunatic fringe to eradicate Islam.
 
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  • #85
OmCheeto said:
So isolating them
You may take that as a paraphrase of the "plausible deniability" embodied in JFK's instructions vis a vis Diem. Whatever it takes.

Edit: ~ 5 min. later. "Overcrowded prisons?" Not that persistent a problem considering the social skills these people possess.
 
  • #86
HossamCFD said:
In general, I agree with you. And I concede that my reaction is largely emotional. But I think it's important to stress the point that religion is not sacred anymore in the west; Islam is only sacred to muslims and they should not expect non-muslims to refrain from poking fun at its symbols. People make fun of Jesus (who is even more holy to christians than Mohamed is to muslims) and Moses all the time and I think it's dangerous to actively avoid making fun of Mohamed, effectively granting muslims a special status in western society.

Actually, I'm not aware of an incidence of Jesus being made fun of. His followers maybe, but never Jesus.

As wiki states, regarding "The Life of Brian" & Jesus:

However, after an early brainstorming stage, and despite being non-believers, they agreed that Jesus was "definitely a good guy" and found nothing to mock in his actual teachings: "He's not particularly funny, what he's saying isn't mockable, it's very decent stuff..." said Idle later.

And on a, let's get this straight as to what has been going through Om's mind for the last 55 years side-note: The gentleman at my convenience store was a Muslim, so after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, I asked him if he was crazy too. He said; "No". and he introduced me to Islam. I then read the Quran, and couldn't really find anything mockable.

So I decided, that the prophets were not the problem, but merely their followers.

And as I implied before, the followers of atheism, are just as bad.
 
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  • #87
Bystander said:
I agree completely. The danger in being as gratuitously reactionary as the lunatic fringe of the world's Islamic population is that the situation can be escalated to the point where that xenophobic lunatic fringe is in a position to enlist sane, civilized Moslems in a holy war against sane, civilized populations from the rest of the world who've been enlisted by their own xenophobic lunatic fringe to eradicate Islam.
Yes you are right. Doing that in an excessive and a reactionary way will have global repercussions, especially in some muslim majority countries who would largely see it as a targeted attack not as a point about freedom of speech.
 
  • #88
OmCheeto said:
These Are The Charlie Hebdo Cartoons That Terrorists Thought Were Worth Killing Over
...
Known for its caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, as well as critical depictions of Catholics, Jews and French politicians, the magazine regularly stirred controversy.
...
If you stir the ****pot, on this planet, be prepared to eat the spoon.

It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.
 
  • #89
256bits said:
It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.
It might be a French thing.
You'd think that with the badge I'd just won a few days ago, that I might be an expert in humour. But, like you, I don't get it either.

I worked with people from all over the planet at my last job. 30 years. The best and the worst of them.
My favorite, was an Armenian, born in East Germany, who moved to Moscow for university, and his PhD thesis was: "Humour in Language". (currently a microbiologist, messing around with transgenic mice)

One day, I asked him if I could have a copy, and he said; "Om, It's very much over your head."

Anyways, I've never worked with a French person, to my knowledge.
 
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  • #90
OmCheeto said:
Actually, I'm not aware of an incidence of Jesus being made fun of. His followers maybe, but never Jesus.

As wiki states, regarding "The Life of Brian" & Jesus:
Here's one example I could find
http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2014/12/10/radio-network-mocking-jesus/
But in general referring to Jesus in talk shows in a less than respectful way doesn't strike me as a rare occurrence.
And on a, let's get this straight as to what has been going through Om's mind for the last 55 years side-note: The gentleman at my convenience store was a Muslim, so after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, I asked him if he was crazy too. He said; "No". and he introduced me to Islam. I then read the Quran, and couldn't really find anything mockable.

So I decided, that the prophets were not the problem, but merely their followers.
Most of what we (think we) know about Mohamed doesn't come from the Quran (in which Mohamed was only mentioned about 5 times) but rather from the later compiled Hadith tradition. In fact most of Sharia rulings and Islamic doctrine in general is in the Hadith, which is regarded by Sunni muslims as almost as authoritative, but not as holy, as the Quran.

There are LOTS of things in the Hadith that I find...well...objectionable.

And I'd like to add that I wouldn't give the Quran a pass, but that's a different topic for a different day.
And as I implied before, the followers of atheism, are just as bad.
I beg to disagree, but I feel like if I expanded on that I might go massively off topic and anger Evo, so I will leave it at that at this point :)
 
  • #91
256bits said:
It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.
I do. And remember that these are political cartoons, not necessarily laugh-out-loud stuff, but more "stick it to those in power" though ridicule.
 
  • #92
OmCheeto said:
Actually, I'm not aware of an incidence of Jesus being made fun of. His followers maybe, but never Jesus.
Really?

Then how about this:
le-courrier-picard-jesus-christ.jpg

"For Elton John, Jesus was homosexual." Jesus: "With S&M tendencies!"
 
  • #93
OmCheeto said:
Whenever anyone goes off on religion as being the worst of all evils, I point to sports:
Religion doesn't need to involve a belief in a diety. In some cases, sports can be seen as being religious.
 
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  • #94
256bits said:
It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.
Garth
 
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  • #95
DrClaude said:
Really?

Then how about this:
View attachment 77427
"For Elton John, Jesus was homosexual." Jesus: "With S&M tendencies!"

That's nothing. Christians did not erupt into a murderous rage even after THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

"Piss Christ is a 1987 photograph by the American artist and photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine."
 

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  • #96
nikkkom said:
That's nothing. Christians did not erupt into a murderous rage even after THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

"Piss Christ is a 1987 photograph by the American artist and photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine."
We were talking about making fun of Christ. Piss Christ is definitely not intended to be funny.
 
  • #97
DrClaude said:
We were talking about making fun of Christ. Piss Christ is definitely not intended to be funny.

Yes, I know. I just wanted to point out that there were FAR more insulting depictions of Jesus than "making fun of" Muhammad. A pic of Muhammad immersed in urine, anyone? Deploy your armed forces to police the streets before you publish that one...
 
  • #99
Astronuc said:
There is perhaps a network of sympathizers helping the Kouachi brothers, but I think it's up to the intelligence and law enforcement to discover such a network.

One could speculate that there were folks who may have known or should have known what Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were planning when the blew up the Alfred P. Murrah building in 1995 and killing 168 people and injured over 600...
There was a married couple who assisted (only the husband was prosecuted), but that's it. Otherwise it was a totally self contained and isolated conspiracy. That's what makes it so difficult to find and stop them.

True lone wolves are pretty rare, in my estimation, for radical Islamic terrorists because they are created by the global community of radical Islam. They can be difficult to track for the opposite reason: there are so many. But that just means we need to put in a lot of effort (and we do).

Consider the Boston Marathon bombers. The actual plot was totally self contained and could almost be called "lone wolf". But their radicalization was totally out in the open/public - enough that Russia(!?) warned us twice to pay attention to the family. So they succeeded in part because we weren't quite vigilant enough and in part because the plot itself was isolated.

These guys are being grown because of a global support network -- a culture -- of hate/terrorism. It is a disturbing development in what I thought prior to 9/11 was a world that was growing more civilized.
 
  • #100
OmCheeto said:
I think I understand what you are saying, and fully agree...

What struck me as odd, and took me a while to reconcile, was why I had to ban a pair of evangelical atheists from my Facebook page.
They basically disagreed with the second sentence of the meme, and went to town, in a very freedom of speechy way.
Why didn't you drive to their house and shoot them? Why hasn't anyone else?
OmCheeto said:
And as I implied before, the followers of atheism, are just as bad.
Really? Can you list even one act of terrorism by an atheist?
 
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