News What lessons can we learn from the Charlie Hebdo shooting?

[DrClaude]

It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.

I do. And remember that these are political cartoons, not necessarily laugh-out-loud stuff, but more "stick it to those in power" though ridicule.

 

[DrClaude]

Actually, I'm not aware of an incidence of Jesus being made fun of. His followers maybe, but never Jesus.

Really?

Then how about this:

"For Elton John, Jesus was homosexual." Jesus: "With S&M tendencies!"

 

[DrClaude]

Whenever anyone goes off on religion as being the worst of all evils, I point to sports:

Religion doesn't need to involve a belief in a diety. In some cases, sports can be seen as being religious.

 

[Garth]

It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.

Garth

 

[nikkkom]

Really?

Then how about this:
View attachment 77427
"For Elton John, Jesus was homosexual." Jesus: "With S&M tendencies!"

That's nothing. Christians did not erupt into a murderous rage even after THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

"Piss Christ is a 1987 photograph by the American artist and photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine."

 

[DrClaude]

That's nothing. Christians did not erupt into a murderous rage even after THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

"Piss Christ is a 1987 photograph by the American artist and photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine."

We were talking about making fun of Christ. Piss Christ is definitely not intended to be funny.

 

[nikkkom]

We were talking about making fun of Christ. Piss Christ is definitely not intended to be funny.

Yes, I know. I just wanted to point out that there were FAR more insulting depictions of Jesus than "making fun of" Muhammad. A pic of Muhammad immersed in urine, anyone? Deploy your armed forces to police the streets before you publish that one...

 

[Borg]

Suspects located and shots fired.

Police have surrounded a house.

 

[russ_watters]

There is perhaps a network of sympathizers helping the Kouachi brothers, but I think it's up to the intelligence and law enforcement to discover such a network.

One could speculate that there were folks who may have known or should have known what Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were planning when the blew up the Alfred P. Murrah building in 1995 and killing 168 people and injured over 600...

There was a married couple who assisted (only the husband was prosecuted), but that's it. Otherwise it was a totally self contained and isolated conspiracy. That's what makes it so difficult to find and stop them.

True lone wolves are pretty rare, in my estimation, for radical Islamic terrorists because they are created by the global community of radical Islam. They can be difficult to track for the opposite reason: there are so many. But that just means we need to put in a lot of effort (and we do).

Consider the Boston Marathon bombers. The actual plot was totally self contained and could almost be called "lone wolf". But their radicalization was totally out in the open/public - enough that Russia(!?) warned us twice to pay attention to the family. So they succeeded in part because we weren't quite vigilant enough and in part because the plot itself was isolated.

These guys are being grown because of a global support network -- a culture -- of hate/terrorism. It is a disturbing development in what I thought prior to 9/11 was a world that was growing more civilized.

 

[russ_watters]

I think I understand what you are saying, and fully agree...

What struck me as odd, and took me a while to reconcile, was why I had to ban a pair of evangelical atheists from my Facebook page.
They basically disagreed with the second sentence of the meme, and went to town, in a very freedom of speechy way.

Why didn't you drive to their house and shoot them? Why hasn't anyone else?

And as I implied before, the followers of atheism, are just as bad.

Really? Can you list even one act of terrorism by an atheist?

 

[russ_watters]

It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.

Political cartoons aren't necessarily supposed to be funny. I think a lot of people may be misunderstanding this: the cartoons don't exist primarily to poke fun/make people laugh, they are intended to be thoughtful criticism. And that's why they are so bad to radicals: thoughtful criticism in an easy to digest bite is powerful.

Moreover, the criticism (or joke, if it is) is generally not aimed at Mohammed, it is aimed at the terrorists. These terrorists, I think, aren't mad that we are criticising islam, but rather because we are criticizing them.

 

[russ_watters]

We were talking about making fun of Christ. Piss Christ is definitely not intended to be funny.

You don't think pointlessly insulting is worse than funny/ironic to make a point?

I will say though that some of the French cartoons don't have a point that I can see. Perhaps the language barrier is getting in the way, but some just look intentionally provocative to get attention (not unlike "Piss Christ").

 

[nikkkom]

A post of someone who said that "we" (I guess it meant the West) are also terrorists was just deleted.
I'm not sure simply deleting posts of people who disagree with us is the best method. Moderators have powers to make people open other threads to prevent derailing threads, or to ask people to be less demagogic / trolls. If they fail to conduct a meaningful discussion after a warning, then by all means, deleting is okay.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

A post of someone who said that "we" (I guess it meant the West) are also terrorists was just deleted.
I'm not sure simply deleting posts of people who disagree with us is the best method. Moderators have powers to make people open other threads to prevent derailing threads, or to ask people to be less demagogic / trolls. If they fail to conduct a meaningful discussion after a warning, then by all means, deleting is okay.

That is the case, carry on

 

[Lisa!]

I was shocked when I heard it first!
Shame on ISIS and their supporters if you know who I meant by them

 

[Astronuc]

There was a married couple who assisted (only the husband was prosecuted), but that's it. Otherwise it was a totally self contained and isolated conspiracy. That's what makes it so difficult to find and stop them.

True lone wolves are pretty rare, in my estimation, for radical Islamic terrorists because they are created by the global community of radical Islam. They can be difficult to track for the opposite reason: there are so many. But that just means we need to put in a lot of effort (and we do).

Consider the Boston Marathon bombers. The actual plot was totally self contained and could almost be called "lone wolf". But their radicalization was totally out in the open/public - enough that Russia(!?) warned us twice to pay attention to the family. So they succeeded in part because we weren't quite vigilant enough and in part because the plot itself was isolated.

These guys are being grown because of a global support network -- a culture -- of hate/terrorism. It is a disturbing development in what I thought prior to 9/11 was a world that was growing more civilized.

I was responding to and reflecting on Evo's speculation about the involvement of others in the Muslim community.

In the case of McVeigh and Nichols, the did have affiliations with one or more militia groups and McVeigh spent time with a white supremacist group.
http://www.historycommons.org/timel...nizations=haitian_elite_2021_michigan_militia

Enraged by the debacle in Waco (see April 19, 1993), McVeigh and Nichols begin experimenting with explosives on James Nichols’s farm, meeting with members of the nascent Michigan Militia (see April 1994), and proposing to launch violent attacks on judges, lawyers, and police officers (see April 19, 1993 and After). McVeigh and Nichols find the militiamen too inactive for their taste. (Michigan Militia spokesmen will later claim that they ejected Nichols and his brother James from their group for their “hyperbolic language”; after the bombing, militia leader Norm Olson will say, “These people were told to leave because of that type of talk of destruction and harm and terrorism.”)
. . . .
In October, they drive to Elohim City, a white supremacist compound in eastern Oklahoma (see 1973 and After), where they meet with at least one member of the Aryan Republican Army (see 1992 - 1995).
. . . .

None of the militia or white supremacist folks notified the FBI or other authorities of any of that. At the time, the FBI and other agencies investigated any leads to various domestic terrorist or anti-government groups, no knowing who else might have been involved. The Southern Poverty Law Center and ADL together monitor more than 900 hate groups.
http://www.splcenter.org/what-we-do/hate-and-extremism

Berg, who was Jewish, gained a strong following in the early 1980s through talk radio, where his liberal views mixed with a combative and often-abrasive on-air persona. In the process, he ignited the anger of The Order, a splinter group of the Aryan Nation white nationalist movement that financed its anti-government goals with bank robberies in the Pacific Northwest — before turning to murder.

http://www.denverpost.com/firstinthepost/ci_12615628

The Order or the other 900+ hate groups do not represent the vast majority of Americans, or Christians. The Kouachi brothers and Al Qaida do not represent Islam or the vast majority of Muslims.

 

[nikkkom]

Al Qaida do not represent Islam or the vast majority of Muslims.

"Vast majority" ordinarily means "much more than 50%". Say, 90% is "vast majority", 85% probably still can be called that, whereas, say, 70% is not a "vast" majority.

Unfortunately, polls do not support your statement that "vast majority" of Muslims have cardinal disagreements with extremists. In fact, it looks like about a third (!) of them mostly agree with extremists. See the attached chart.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Let's please keep this thread on topic

 

[Borg]

Suspects located and shots fired.

Police have surrounded a house.

Yahoo (and I ) seems to be jumping the gun. CNN is reporting a very heavy police presence in the area. However, still no confirmed reports of the actual location of the two brothers.

 

[Bystander]

the actual location of the two brothers.

What is the box score right now? Yesterday it was "One dead and two in custody." Last night it was "One surrendered, two on the run." Are we looking at a total of three? Or five?

 

[mheslep]

...and I think it's dangerous to actively avoid making fun of Mohamed, effectively granting muslims a special status in western society.

I've stated earlier in this thread that I go out of my way to avoid profaning other peoples' religions; this is going excessively out of the way to be offensive. ...

Bystander, I think that you are ... right. I've thought better of my re-posting the Charlie Hebdo cartoons here in this thread yesterday and was about to delete the image-post, though I see the authorities have, unfortunately, beat me to it.

 

[Borg]

What is the box score right now? Yesterday it was "One dead and two in custody." Last night it was "One surrendered, two on the run." Are we looking at a total of three? Or five?

At this point, I think that it's the 18 year old who turned himself in and the two brothers. I've been watching CNN today and they reported the following:

• The 18 year old is a high school student and some classmates have stated that he was in class yesterday.
• One of the brothers being hunted actually left his ID in the car.

I've also read that police had taken 7 people in for questioning. Perhaps yesterday's "two in custody" were part of that group. No idea where the one dead report came from though.

 

[StevieTNZ]

No idea where the one dead report came from though.

Perhaps this? -- https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/policewoman-shot-dead-in-paris.791233/

 

[DrClaude]

You don't think pointlessly insulting is worse than funny/ironic to make a point?

No, I do. I was just making a point in response to OmCheeto's baffling comment that no one ever makes fun of Jesus Christ, only of his followers. Nikkkom then mentionned Piss Christ, which I think misses the point because it's not intended to be funny.

I will say though that some of the French cartoons don't have a point that I can see. Perhaps the language barrier is getting in the way, but some just look intentionally provocative to get attention (not unlike "Piss Christ").

I don't think it's the language barrier as much as the question of context. As with many political cartoons, they can be hard to understand if one doesn't know what prompted the cartoonist.

 

[mheslep]

Anyone have reliable information on the share of French police carrying firearms? Apparently those killed yesterday were unarmed. In the UK the policy is most don't, some do, but I wouldn't know the details.

 

[Dotini]

Anyone have reliable information on the share of French police carrying firearms? Apparently those killed yesterday were unarmed. In the UK the policy is most don't, some do, but I wouldn't know the details.

A friend in Paris last week reported to me yesterday that police in La Defense (the financial district) were routinely in body armor and carrying machine pistols at the noon hour. From the fuzzy shot of the prostrate policeman, outside Charlie Hebdo, it appeared he might have been wearing body armor.

 

[DrClaude]

Anyone have reliable information on the share of French police carrying firearms? Apparently those killed yesterday were unarmed. In the UK the policy is most don't, some do, but I wouldn't know the details.

As far as I know, all French police officers are armed. One of the officers killed yesterday was assigned to protect Charb, and reports said that he did not have time to return fire. I don't know what happened with the one shot outside while the assassins were escaping.

 

[DrClaude]

What is the box score right now? Yesterday it was "One dead and two in custody." Last night it was "One surrendered, two on the run." Are we looking at a total of three? Or five?

Current situation is that one suspect has turned himself in (I heard reports that he denied any involvement), the two others are still at large and have abandonned their vehicule, and presumed to be on foot. Seven other people have been taken into custody, but have not yet been charged.

 

[Windadct]

No idea where the one dead report came from though.

Schrodinger's News

-- when you have to edit a joke, it is kind of like having to explain it...

 

[Dotini]

Here's point of view that suggests the massacre has little to do with satire, free speech or Charlie Hebdo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...harlie-Hebdos-satire.-What-if-were-wrong.html
"In our angry innocence, however, we persist in thinking this is somehow about cartoons."