News What lessons can we learn from the Charlie Hebdo shooting?

[russ_watters]

It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.

Political cartoons aren't necessarily supposed to be funny. I think a lot of people may be misunderstanding this: the cartoons don't exist primarily to poke fun/make people laugh, they are intended to be thoughtful criticism. And that's why they are so bad to radicals: thoughtful criticism in an easy to digest bite is powerful.

Moreover, the criticism (or joke, if it is) is generally not aimed at Mohammed, it is aimed at the terrorists. These terrorists, I think, aren't mad that we are criticising islam, but rather because we are criticizing them.

 

[russ_watters]

We were talking about making fun of Christ. Piss Christ is definitely not intended to be funny.

You don't think pointlessly insulting is worse than funny/ironic to make a point?

I will say though that some of the French cartoons don't have a point that I can see. Perhaps the language barrier is getting in the way, but some just look intentionally provocative to get attention (not unlike "Piss Christ").

 

[nikkkom]

A post of someone who said that "we" (I guess it meant the West) are also terrorists was just deleted.
I'm not sure simply deleting posts of people who disagree with us is the best method. Moderators have powers to make people open other threads to prevent derailing threads, or to ask people to be less demagogic / trolls. If they fail to conduct a meaningful discussion after a warning, then by all means, deleting is okay.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

A post of someone who said that "we" (I guess it meant the West) are also terrorists was just deleted.
I'm not sure simply deleting posts of people who disagree with us is the best method. Moderators have powers to make people open other threads to prevent derailing threads, or to ask people to be less demagogic / trolls. If they fail to conduct a meaningful discussion after a warning, then by all means, deleting is okay.

That is the case, carry on

 

[Lisa!]

I was shocked when I heard it first!
Shame on ISIS and their supporters if you know who I meant by them

 

[Astronuc]

There was a married couple who assisted (only the husband was prosecuted), but that's it. Otherwise it was a totally self contained and isolated conspiracy. That's what makes it so difficult to find and stop them.

True lone wolves are pretty rare, in my estimation, for radical Islamic terrorists because they are created by the global community of radical Islam. They can be difficult to track for the opposite reason: there are so many. But that just means we need to put in a lot of effort (and we do).

Consider the Boston Marathon bombers. The actual plot was totally self contained and could almost be called "lone wolf". But their radicalization was totally out in the open/public - enough that Russia(!?) warned us twice to pay attention to the family. So they succeeded in part because we weren't quite vigilant enough and in part because the plot itself was isolated.

These guys are being grown because of a global support network -- a culture -- of hate/terrorism. It is a disturbing development in what I thought prior to 9/11 was a world that was growing more civilized.

I was responding to and reflecting on Evo's speculation about the involvement of others in the Muslim community.

In the case of McVeigh and Nichols, the did have affiliations with one or more militia groups and McVeigh spent time with a white supremacist group.
http://www.historycommons.org/timel...nizations=haitian_elite_2021_michigan_militia

Enraged by the debacle in Waco (see April 19, 1993), McVeigh and Nichols begin experimenting with explosives on James Nichols’s farm, meeting with members of the nascent Michigan Militia (see April 1994), and proposing to launch violent attacks on judges, lawyers, and police officers (see April 19, 1993 and After). McVeigh and Nichols find the militiamen too inactive for their taste. (Michigan Militia spokesmen will later claim that they ejected Nichols and his brother James from their group for their “hyperbolic language”; after the bombing, militia leader Norm Olson will say, “These people were told to leave because of that type of talk of destruction and harm and terrorism.”)
. . . .
In October, they drive to Elohim City, a white supremacist compound in eastern Oklahoma (see 1973 and After), where they meet with at least one member of the Aryan Republican Army (see 1992 - 1995).
. . . .

None of the militia or white supremacist folks notified the FBI or other authorities of any of that. At the time, the FBI and other agencies investigated any leads to various domestic terrorist or anti-government groups, no knowing who else might have been involved. The Southern Poverty Law Center and ADL together monitor more than 900 hate groups.
http://www.splcenter.org/what-we-do/hate-and-extremism

Berg, who was Jewish, gained a strong following in the early 1980s through talk radio, where his liberal views mixed with a combative and often-abrasive on-air persona. In the process, he ignited the anger of The Order, a splinter group of the Aryan Nation white nationalist movement that financed its anti-government goals with bank robberies in the Pacific Northwest — before turning to murder.

http://www.denverpost.com/firstinthepost/ci_12615628

The Order or the other 900+ hate groups do not represent the vast majority of Americans, or Christians. The Kouachi brothers and Al Qaida do not represent Islam or the vast majority of Muslims.

 

[nikkkom]

Al Qaida do not represent Islam or the vast majority of Muslims.

"Vast majority" ordinarily means "much more than 50%". Say, 90% is "vast majority", 85% probably still can be called that, whereas, say, 70% is not a "vast" majority.

Unfortunately, polls do not support your statement that "vast majority" of Muslims have cardinal disagreements with extremists. In fact, it looks like about a third (!) of them mostly agree with extremists. See the attached chart.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Let's please keep this thread on topic

 

[Borg]

Suspects located and shots fired.

Police have surrounded a house.

Yahoo (and I ) seems to be jumping the gun. CNN is reporting a very heavy police presence in the area. However, still no confirmed reports of the actual location of the two brothers.

 

[Bystander]

the actual location of the two brothers.

What is the box score right now? Yesterday it was "One dead and two in custody." Last night it was "One surrendered, two on the run." Are we looking at a total of three? Or five?

 

[mheslep]

...and I think it's dangerous to actively avoid making fun of Mohamed, effectively granting muslims a special status in western society.

I've stated earlier in this thread that I go out of my way to avoid profaning other peoples' religions; this is going excessively out of the way to be offensive. ...

Bystander, I think that you are ... right. I've thought better of my re-posting the Charlie Hebdo cartoons here in this thread yesterday and was about to delete the image-post, though I see the authorities have, unfortunately, beat me to it.

 

[Borg]

What is the box score right now? Yesterday it was "One dead and two in custody." Last night it was "One surrendered, two on the run." Are we looking at a total of three? Or five?

At this point, I think that it's the 18 year old who turned himself in and the two brothers. I've been watching CNN today and they reported the following:

• The 18 year old is a high school student and some classmates have stated that he was in class yesterday.
• One of the brothers being hunted actually left his ID in the car.

I've also read that police had taken 7 people in for questioning. Perhaps yesterday's "two in custody" were part of that group. No idea where the one dead report came from though.

 

[StevieTNZ]

No idea where the one dead report came from though.

Perhaps this? -- https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/policewoman-shot-dead-in-paris.791233/

 

[DrClaude]

You don't think pointlessly insulting is worse than funny/ironic to make a point?

No, I do. I was just making a point in response to OmCheeto's baffling comment that no one ever makes fun of Jesus Christ, only of his followers. Nikkkom then mentionned Piss Christ, which I think misses the point because it's not intended to be funny.

I will say though that some of the French cartoons don't have a point that I can see. Perhaps the language barrier is getting in the way, but some just look intentionally provocative to get attention (not unlike "Piss Christ").

I don't think it's the language barrier as much as the question of context. As with many political cartoons, they can be hard to understand if one doesn't know what prompted the cartoonist.

 

[mheslep]

Anyone have reliable information on the share of French police carrying firearms? Apparently those killed yesterday were unarmed. In the UK the policy is most don't, some do, but I wouldn't know the details.

 

[Dotini]

Anyone have reliable information on the share of French police carrying firearms? Apparently those killed yesterday were unarmed. In the UK the policy is most don't, some do, but I wouldn't know the details.

A friend in Paris last week reported to me yesterday that police in La Defense (the financial district) were routinely in body armor and carrying machine pistols at the noon hour. From the fuzzy shot of the prostrate policeman, outside Charlie Hebdo, it appeared he might have been wearing body armor.

 

[DrClaude]

Anyone have reliable information on the share of French police carrying firearms? Apparently those killed yesterday were unarmed. In the UK the policy is most don't, some do, but I wouldn't know the details.

As far as I know, all French police officers are armed. One of the officers killed yesterday was assigned to protect Charb, and reports said that he did not have time to return fire. I don't know what happened with the one shot outside while the assassins were escaping.

 

[DrClaude]

What is the box score right now? Yesterday it was "One dead and two in custody." Last night it was "One surrendered, two on the run." Are we looking at a total of three? Or five?

Current situation is that one suspect has turned himself in (I heard reports that he denied any involvement), the two others are still at large and have abandonned their vehicule, and presumed to be on foot. Seven other people have been taken into custody, but have not yet been charged.

 

[Windadct]

No idea where the one dead report came from though.

Schrodinger's News

-- when you have to edit a joke, it is kind of like having to explain it...

 

[Dotini]

Here's point of view that suggests the massacre has little to do with satire, free speech or Charlie Hebdo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...harlie-Hebdos-satire.-What-if-were-wrong.html
"In our angry innocence, however, we persist in thinking this is somehow about cartoons."

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Here's point of view that suggests the massacre has little to do with satire, free speech or Charlie Hebdo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...harlie-Hebdos-satire.-What-if-were-wrong.html
"In our angry innocence, however, we persist in thinking this is somehow about cartoons."

Sort of what I was saying before. These jihadists are looking for reasons and they will create new ones. There is a higher level problem here.

 

[OmCheeto]

Why didn't you drive to their house and shoot them? Why hasn't anyone else?

I don't think I'd look good in stripes, and neither does anyone else.

People, here in "the west", are free to say what they want, but there are repercussions. As I mentioned a few weeks ago:

I didn't mean to curse anyone or anything. I am very gentle, anyone supervising me knows that well. :D
People tend not to like the truth because it either hurts or disillusions them.

I once had a friend like you. She used to complain that I was weak, because I never shared my true feelings. One day, she shared her true feelings with me, and I decided never to speak to her, ever again. The only friends she has left, are members of her coven.

Off topic response removed by mentor.The wiki entry on "terrorism" is interesting.

...The word "terrorism" is politically loaded and emotionally charged, and this greatly compounds the difficulty of providing a precise definition. ...

Off topic response removed by mentor.

You don't think pointlessly insulting is worse than funny/ironic to make a point?

I will say though that some of the French cartoons don't have a point that I can see. Perhaps the language barrier is getting in the way, but some just look intentionally provocative to get attention (not unlike "Piss Christ").

Sorry, but I'm just going to have to say, I agree with you here. I googled for images of Charlie Hebdo, looked at a bunch, and constantly scratched my head. The point of the images is way over my head. And apparently, we are not alone.

Please note that the date on the following is Sept 22, 2012

[ref]

This cartoon by Chappatte relates to the decision by French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo to publish a series of cartoons featuring the Prophet Muhammad. Many French newspapers have rushed to the defence of Charlie Hebdo. Others, however, accuse the paper of acting irresponsibly in the current context.The cartoons come in the wake of violence in Libya and elsewhere in the Middle East, starting last week, in response to an anti-Islamic video produced in the state of California by a US citizen.

 

[nikkkom]

This point of view ascribes too much of "evil plan" to these guys. They are really not smart enough to produce a plan to ignite a civil war by provoking us into a backlash.

 

[DrClaude]

As far as I know, all French police officers are armed.

Looks like I didn't know much! I've checked, and about 40% of municipal police officers are armed.

 

[OmCheeto]

Sort of what I was saying before. These jihadists are looking for reasons and they will create new ones. There is a higher level problem here.

No! That article is saying exactly what I was saying!

And your wife is an idiot. How can anyone not know when to put in the laundry detergent. It's obvious!

 

[Vanadium 50]

Looks like I didn't know much! I've checked, and about 40% of municipal police officers are armed.

It's complicated because France has multiple police forces. There is the Police Nationale (formerly called the Surete, for those who read old novels) and the Gendarmerie Nationale. Those are the biggest, but there are others. They vary in jurisdiction (both geographic and action) and in the fraction carrying weapons.

 

[Vanadium 50]

"Had he not been so narcissistic, he may still be alive"

I think there is a lot to be said for that. Indeed, here's the US position from a previous incident: "The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." We can never know for sure, but I believe had Charlie Hebdo caved after the bombing, these people would have picked another target - a lone policeman, like in 2013, or some Jewish kids like in 2012.

 

[Vanadium 50]

One more comment.

We are not going to be able to convince these people that it is wrong to shoot cartoonists and filmmakers. We are not going to convince them that it is wrong to whip to death rape victims. We are not going to convince them that it is wrong to capture prepubescent girls, rape them, and then sell them into slavery. We are not going to convince them to is wrong to kill people who follow a different religion. We are not going to convince them that bombing train stations and subway lines is wrong. We are not going to convince then that walking into a schoolyard and shooting an 8-year old girl in the head, execution-style, because she happens to be Jewish is wrong.

No, we're not going to convince them these actions are wrong. We might, however, be able to convince them that these actions are unsafe.

 

[DavidSnider]

One more comment.

We are not going to be able to convince these people that it is wrong to shoot cartoonists and filmmakers. We are not going to convince them that it is wrong to whip to death rape victims. We are not going to convince them that it is wrong to capture prepubescent girls, rape them, and then sell them into slavery. We are not going to convince them to is wrong to kill people who follow a different religion. We are not going to convince them that bombing train stations and subway lines is wrong. We are not going to convince then that walking into a schoolyard and shooting an 8-year old girl in the head, execution-style, because she happens to be Jewish is wrong.

No, we're not going to convince them these actions are wrong. We might, however, be able to convince them that these actions are unsafe.

What more could we possibly do to make them think it's unsafe? Clearly safety is not something these people have any regard for.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

What more could we possibly do to make them think it's unsafe? Clearly safety is not something these people have any regard for.

mmmm yes and no. If they didn't care about safety and their lives then it would have been a suicide mission.

 

[DavidSnider]

mmmm yes and no. If they didn't care about safety and their lives then it would have been a suicide mission.

This time. But many other times it is a suicide mission. One thing you will commonly hear these terrorists say is "We love death more than you love life."

 

[enosis_]

IMO, shouting their motivation during the attack is releasing a statement.

Sort of like a death bed confession?

 

[enosis_]

What a vicious and barbaric attack!

I wonder if this madness will ever end.

I don't believe it will end in our lifetimes.

 

[OCR]

If they didn't care about safety and their lives then it would have been a suicide mission.

It might go beyond that, though...Tacitus...

He that fights and runs away, May turn and fight another day; But he that is in battle slain, Will never rise to fight again.

 

[WWGD]

Well, I don't know if it is Islam itself, or the fact that most Islamic societies/countries nowadays are broken down,
with repressive governments, etc. and they cannot pull themselves out of it. Still, Salman Rushdie's last book was " Buddha, you Fat Bastard", I guess he's aiming to insult every single person in the planet.

EDIT: just a cheesy joke, the last line; hope calling an important figure a fat bastard is not that
big of a deal. You may call my hero Gauss a fat bastard, though maybe the fat part may be absurd, since he was not one, though he could be kind of nasty.

 

[OmCheeto]

A Sudanese political cartoonist had this to say about the Charlie Hebdo incident.

When cartoons upset the 'wrong people'
Jan 8, 2015
...
Constructive role

This situation is a perpetuation of what's happening in the Middle East right now - it's far more complex than the cartoon business. For us to help, to play a constructive role, we should desist from pointing the finger at others, and we must examine what motivates these young people to turn to violence and extremism.

Freedom of speech is a powerful weapon and one I have never fully had - but for those who do have it, I wish they would stop taking it for granted.

Instead, they ought to ask the right questions - the questions that need to be asked - rather than accusatory ones that fuel the stereotypes that have originated in mainstream media.

Their work must focus on conveying the right message. They must work towards bridging the gap - and not widening it.

It's always surprising when someone from a completely alien society shares my views.

 

[DarthMatter]

It's like physics: It is generally best to understand the problem as a whole. But it is not always easy to do.

 

[Borg]

Police have them cornered in a building and, of course, they've taken a hostage.

The two suspects in the Charlie Hebdo attack spoke to officers by phone and said they wanted to die as martyrs

 

[Dotini]

I'm hearing disturbing reports from an acquaintance in France.

- Around 13.00 a new shooting in Paris. A heavily armed man entered a small grocery store with around 30 people inside. Started to shoot with automatic weapon.
- Shooter still in store with several hostages
- Jewish grocery store, shooter inside with several, perhaps 5 hostages.
- He's believed to be the same man who shot the policewoman yesterday.
- Apparently the supermarket gunman in Paris is demanding that the siege where the Kouachi brothers are pinned down is lifted, otherwise he will continue to hold hostages in Paris.

Edit: Now an unconfirmed report he has surrendered. Obviously, this is all still breaking and confused. So far I see no reports in western media.

Edit 2: Here it is.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30740115#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa

Edit 3: British spy boss says expect more and bigger attacks very soon.

http://news.yahoo.com/britains-mi5-chief-warns-al-qaeda-syria-planning-220625665.html

 

[Borg]

I'm watching CNN. There are shootings and presumed flash bangs going off at both hostage locations.

 

[Borg]

CNN is reporting that the two brothers are dead and their hostage was successfully rescued.

The final situation at the grocery store is less clear but they are reporting that at least some of the hostages have been rescued.

 

[Evo]

All suspects have been killed.

Cherif and Said Kouachi, suspects in the Charlie Hebdo massacre, were killed Friday when French police raided a warehouse where the brothers were holding one person captive. A third suspected terrorist was killed by police at a Kosher grocery in Paris. Hostages at both locations were freed, but others are reportedly dead.Follow Yahoo News' live coverage of the situation below.

http://news.yahoo.com/paris-shooting-je-suis-charlie-hebdo-attack-live-coverage-151842914.html

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

All suspects have been killed.

I think the girl is still loose?

 

[nsaspook]

The reports are the two brothers triggered the police response at both sites first by first exiting the warehouse and firing at police in a 'Martyrs' run after their hostage escaped . The police at the market then had to do a forced entry to prevent the others from possibility killing (the rest of) their hostages when they heard the news.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/09/world/france-woman-suspect/index.html

A new, massive manhunt was launched Friday for the only surviving suspect from the two hostage situations in France, who may have escaped, police union spokesman Pascal Disant said.

 

[Evo]

I think the girl is still loose?

It appears so. "Coulibaly's accomplice Hayatboumeddiene is unknown at present."

Rumors of another suspect.

Reports from Paris suggest a second male hostage-taker at the supermarket may have escaped from the stand-off. Meanwhile, Boumeddiene's whereabouts remain unknown.

 

[Bystander]

Just noticeable on the news ticker (could have been there all along and I didn't see it), Boko Haram kills ~ 2k in NE Nigeria Wednesday. Lack of perspective on the effects of extremism is going to hinder handling/response to the problem.

 

[nsaspook]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/06/africa/egypt-president-speech/index.html

"I say and repeat, again, that we are in need of a religious revolution. You imams are responsible before Allah. The entire world is waiting on you. The entire world is waiting for your word ... because the Islamic world is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost. And it is being lost by our own hands," el-Sisi said.

Unless they stop this madness it will be destroyed, not by the west but from within.

 

[nikkkom]

What happened to CNN during last few months? It looks much less professional...

In particular, during coverage of this event, whenever I see their web page, I can't help but wonder whether they really are trying to make their headline's letter size to be bigger than my screen size. They are HUGE, man! :)

 

[lisab]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/06/africa/egypt-president-speech/index.htmlUnless they stop this madness it will be destroyed, not by the west but from within.

Great speech! Note that it was delivered before the Charlie Hebdo shootings.

(And did anyone else notice his name - Sisi - is a the reverse of Isis? )

 

[nsaspook]

These terrorist are Takfiri.
Modern Islam has to completely purge this type of thinking if it wants to be integrated into Western society. Hate, violence and even war can be tolerated but the barbaric view that dissident must be eliminated by any means possible is a poison that can't be allowed in an open and free society.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Le...llah-takfiris-present-muslims-as-savages.ashx