Writing: Input Wanted What would it take to crawl out of a black hole?

[MichaelLujan]

As I understand it, the crux of the issue is: how is information preserved across the event horizon, in this case, the arrangements of subatomic particles, atoms, etc right on up through the individual parts, etc., of the creature in question. That, and the relativistic escape velocity required to be overcome. What I have in mind is a creature in a very far distant future made up of nano-modules which, after having been banished into a galactic supermassive black hole, slowly crawls out, bit by bit, over billions of years. Plausible?

 

[Liam C]

This is something we do not have the answer to yet. General relativity says that anything that enters a black hole must be destroyed while quantum mechanics states that information can never be destroyed. Here is an article that goes more in depth on that(Stephen Hawking is in it!)
I would also implore you to do some research on Hawking Radiation. It is very relevant and very interesting.
Here's a video about it.
Here's an paper written by Stephen about it.

 

[phinds]

As I understand it, the crux of the issue is: how is information preserved across the event horizon, in this case, the arrangements of subatomic particles, atoms, etc right on up through the individual parts, etc., of the creature in question. That, and the relativistic escape velocity required to be overcome. What I have in mind is a creature in a very far distant future made up of nano-modules which, after having been banished into a galactic supermassive black hole, slowly crawls out, bit by bit, over billions of years. Plausible?

And what form do you imagine this "bit" would take? EM radiation? Won't work. An atom? Won't work. So no, I don't think it's plausible.

Hawking Radiation might (and I'm dubious about this but Hawking and Suskind know a hell of a lot more physics than I do) be able to give some information about what fell into the black hole but I don't think that's the same as reconstructing the object in its original form.

 

[Liam C]

And what form do you imagine this "bit" would take? EM radiation? Won't work. An atom? Won't work. So no, I don't think it's plausible.

Hawking Radiation might (and I'm dubious about this but Hawking and Suskind know a hell of a lot more physics than I do) be able to give some information about what fell into the black hole but I don't think that's the same as reconstructing the object in its original form.

What phinds says is correct, it's not really plausible, but I'd remind you, Michael, that since it's fiction it doesn't need to be exactly correct. Since we know some information may be able to be recovered through Hawking Radiation you can probably stretch this idea quite a bit to fit within your story. Good luck.

 

[MichaelLujan]

And what form do you imagine this "bit" would take? EM radiation? Won't work. An atom? Won't work. So no, I don't think it's plausible.

Hawking Radiation might (and I'm dubious about this but Hawking and Suskind know a hell of a lot more physics than I do) be able to give some information about what fell into the black hole but I don't think that's the same as reconstructing the object in its original form.

Thanks for your response! So now we're getting into the realm of ontology - are objects anything more than information in some form? If it's possible to theoretically recreate something right down to its quarks, if only one knew beforehand how every single quark was arranged, then, to quote the sadly-too-early terminated TV show Caprica, could it be said that "a difference that makes no difference is no difference"?

I'll grant that it's easier to imagine something like that happening with an outside agent at the wheel, someone other than the being being re-created doing the work of re-creation (even if with with no blueprint other than that being's own constituent parts); but what about some form of bootstrapping? Given a sufficient amount of time, is it totally unreasonable to suppose that a being could somehow re-assemble itself, assuming its information to be intact in any way?

 

[MichaelLujan]

What phinds says is correct, it's not really plausible, but I'd remind you, Michael, that since it's fiction it doesn't need to be exactly correct. Since we know some information may be able to be recovered through Hawking Radiation you can probably stretch this idea quite a bit to fit within your story. Good luck.

Indeed! :) I just want to tax any potential scientifically-literate readers' suspension of disbelief as little as possible - while also still leaving some room for that quantum of mystery which itself tends to be a mark of plausibility. I want to pave a road from where we are now in terms of sound science, to the literate space I want to occupy, but maybe... not all the way. Just enough to discern that there *is* a road of some kind. And I think to get there I need to perhaps examine more thoroughly how something with at least some vestige of consciousness might escape a black hole, no matter how long it took (and I think that's a key ingredient here - the sheer timescale, enough to employ "if it's even remotely possible to happen, it will happen).

 

[phinds]

Indeed! :) I just want to tax any potential scientifically-literate readers' suspension of disbelief as little as possible - while also still leaving some room for that quantum of mystery which itself tends to be a mark of plausibility. I want to pave a road from where we are now in terms of sound science, to the literate space I want to occupy, but maybe... not all the way. Just enough to discern that there *is* a road of some kind. And I think to get there I need to perhaps examine more thoroughly how something with at least some vestige of consciousness might escape a black hole, not matter how long it took (and I think that's a key ingredient here - the sheer timescale, enough to employ "if it's even remotely possible to happen, it will happen).

I don't see why time scale is a factor. The is issue is not how long it takes but can it be done at all, unless you are thinking that something might be reconstructed from its Hawking Radiation. If that's the case then you can use that as your science driver but the amount of time it would take is orders of magnitude longer than the universe has existed to this point, so not very helpful to a story line.

 

[MichaelLujan]

I don't see why time scale is a factor. The is issue is not how long it takes but can it be done at all, unless you are thinking that something might be reconstructed from its Hawking Radiation. If that's the case then you can use that as your science driver but the amount of time it would take is orders of magnitude longer than the universe has existed to this point, so not very helpful to a story line.

Timescale is a factor, precisely because my story takes place during the slow heat death of the universe, on the scale of a quadrillion or so years in the future.

 

[phinds]

Timescale is a factor, precisely because my story takes place during the slow heat death of the universe, on the scale of a quadrillion or so years in the future.

If I understand it correctly, that's no where near long enough.

At any rate, my point was that the issue is not how long it takes but whether or not it can be done and I don't think it can in actual science but of course you can make up whatever you like for fiction. Hawking Radiation is as good a science buzz word as any other.

 

[newjerseyrunner]

Would a Alcubierre drive be able to do it? GR only says that anything that goes past the event horizon can't come back out because of the curvature of spacetime. So if you find a way to counter the curve for a small region of space, would you be able to work your way out? You'd need negative energy density obviously, but would it mathematically work?

 

[Gladbraith]

The alcubierre drive would indeed warp space time and counter-act the effects of a black hole, but in so doing it would require a gigantic energy input, likely many times more than our sun. Unless you find a way to generate that much energy in that little volume (impossible(?)) then it wouldn't work. If you managed to make an alcubierre drive powered by the gravitational/radiation energy of the black hole however... hmmm... We would have to determine the nature of spacetime outside and inside of the event horizon before being able to answer this question. INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

 

[256bits]

a creature in a very far distant future made up of nano-modules which, after having been banished into a galactic supermassive black hole, slowly crawls out,

You might work around with this.
Perhaps only ONE nanoparticle, containing all the information of the creature has to crawl out, and then once out, re-assemble.
The other nanos can attempt to form a ladder for the chosen nano to use to for its journey.

From the viewpoint of someone outside the black hole, the creature never does fall in, but is continuously on a slow journey to oblivion, during the time which the nanos can do their thing for the Chosen One, saving it, sacrificing themselves and ensuring their own destruction.

( Plot twist. The Chosen One, slightly damaged by radiation, gravitational tidal and g-forces, envisions building a new unjust cosmos of chaos and turmoil, but with a caveat that, should a life form evolve with consciousness, ( which it wickedly? sets in motion for the forces of nature to do so ), will suffer the chaos and turmoil as it itself has done at the hands of its transgressors, but will appreciate and understand the beauty of its creation and be in awe and fascination of it all. In the future or in the past - who can tell the difference when qadzillions of eons have passed by )

 

[Andrew Wright]

Someone qualified might be able to work with this.

If a black hole is emitting Hawkin radiation into the surrounding universe, then as you approach its event horizon, the amount of Hawkin radiation going into the outside world may seem to accelerate. The black hole might just turn into a white hole and spit you out again at a distant region of space time, far far into the future.

The way to get out may be to stop resisting it and actually accelorate towards the event horizon.

 

[phinds]

Someone qualified might be able to work with this.

If a black hole is emitting Hawkin radiation into the surrounding universe, then as you approach its event horizon, the amount of Hawkin radiation going into the outside world may seem to accelerate. The black hole might just turn into a white hole and spit you out again at a distant region of space time, far far into the future.

The way to get out may be to stop resisting it and actually accelorate towards the event horizon.

As science that is utter nonsense of course but I suppose like anything else it could be used in a sci fi story

 

[Andrew Wright]

lol

 

[Andrew Wright]

Did Hawkin speculate that very far into the distant future, some black holes may evaporate completely and end up spitting everything out in an explosion or something?

 

[phinds]

Did Hawkin speculate that very far into the distant future, some black holes may evaporate completely and end up spitting everything out in an explosion or something?

Well, not quite. What the math says is that BH radiation is a function of size. Really big BH's radiate almost not at all but over unimaginable amounts of time they do radiate away, and as they get really small the radiation speeds up and when they are really small they basically just evaporate, but no explosion.

 

[Andrew Wright]

In the other thread entitled "What kind of damage could this weapon do", it was mentioned that black holes emitting Hawkin radiation would indeed be expected to end in something like an explosion. This article was linked to:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2013/11/12/what_would_the_death_of_a_black_hole_look_like.html

However, it says something about it being a very small explosion on the "astronomical scale" (compared to a supernova for example?)