Other What's the point of a thesis?

[berkeman]

when a person who lied on a published paper was thrown into the T-rex cage to be eaten. ;-)

Just make fun of their short arms. That makes them sad, and you can run away while they are temporarily blinded by their tears.

 

[Vanadium 50]

(Originally misdirected, sorry)

We seem not to have a reply by the OP to the question about whether he's read some dissertations, or whether the complaint is based on what he thinks he would find if he did. A dissertation serves a different purpose than a publication.

How many times have you read in a paper "The effect of XXX was considered and found to be negligible." One line - and it could be an entire chapter in a dissertation, or I suppose even the whole thing.

 

[ergospherical]

 

[jedishrfu]

I guess that is the reason. If the field is so specialized that you can't reasonably set a standardized exam in it (for 1 student), then a long exposition is some measure of understanding.

The Dyson video is interesting. From my perspective of not having done / not intending to do a PhD, I think I'd agree with what he's trying to say. 4/5 years is a long time to devote to a particular problem.

It seems like a shame that there's no "modern" alternative for one or more short-term research projects beyond something like a 1-year Masters. There's opportunities for things like this in industry & internships, though - but it's slightly different context.

There actually is a modern alternative. I was interested in getting a PhD at work and the notion of a 60+ year-old taking the GRE and getting competitive scores with younger folks fresh out of undergrad school is nigh impossible. Thats what my university set as the stipulation for using the educational credit benefit. I spoke with others at work and they said they ran into the same roadblock. Finally, I tried the route of taking single courses but again you had to get into the program via the GRE route+recommendations... in order to get the graduate credit.

One retired PhD at work mentioned another route. First, find a dissertation worthy work project. Work on it a bit and then propose it to the relevant department to use this work project as PhD research. If the department agreed, they would assign a PhD thesis advisor and setup a committee to review your work. In addition, the committee may recommend that you take certain courses to remedy any academic deficiencies before running you through the dissertation grilling. Its a very hard road too but at least you're not competing with 20+ something students fresh off the undergrad experience.

Sadly, I was never able to find a dissertation worthy project. My lab director wasn't really interested in furthering older research folks careers. He instead pushed younger folks ahead. In one instance, they used a writeup I had written with some small changes as a research project for an undergrad intern and gave it to a younger colleague to mentor.

I did get to witness a dissertation grilling. It was really something. The student presented his work and then the questions began. Initially, they were straightforward and he answered them well but then one rather persistent PhD kept hammering at one point and first the advisor intervened but got overwhelmed and then a PhD coworker of the student stepped in and shutdown the discussion fast putting the persistant PhD in his place. The student made it through thanks to his coworker and got his well deserved PhD.

 

[bhobba]

Before we go too far down this path, have you ever actually read a thesis? Or is the criticism based on what you think you would find if you did read one?

A good thesis to read IMHO; relates to mathematical issues of Quantum Mechanics. I sometimes link to it when Rigged Hilbert Spaces are relevant to a discussion; Quantum Mechanics in Rigged Hilbert Space Language by Rafael de la Madrid Modino:

http://galaxy.cs.lamar.edu/~rafaelm/webdis.pdf

The purpose of a PhD program extends beyond producing a dissertation (thesis). It's a transformative journey that equips you with the skills and mindset of a researcher, fostering personal growth and intellectual curiosity.

Some think it is a necessity to become a researcher. It isn't. My Operations Research lecturer famously did not have a PhD, but rather a DSc, which you get by submitting work you already have published. He was grabbed by IBM before doing his PhD. Dyson famously worked with Bethe and Feynman (and was a good friend of Feynman) to produce his groundbreaking work linking the approaches of Schwinger, Feynman, and Tomonaga. That alone was worthy of a DSc (and a Nobel Prize, but they already had the max of three in Feynman, Schwinger, and Tomonaga), but he just couldn't be bothered; in fact, he was not even a fan of the system. It is rumoured Feynman was secretly jealous because he wanted to say - hey buddy even I know that, and I do not have a PhD. When Dyson was lecturing on his work, Feynman knew all about it. He sat at the back of the lecture and kept all those nearby in stitches with jokes. In the end, he said - you're in Doc - meaning, of course, for him, a PhD was irrelevant. A dissertation is important as it is an actual published work that must be formally defended, but the real value of a PhD is the mentoring you get on doing research. This can be got in many ways, as my Operations Research professor and Dyson can attest to.

Thanks
Bill

 

[ohwilleke]

A good thesis to read IMHO; relates to mathematical issues of Quantum Mechanics. I sometimes link to it when Rigged Hilbert Spaces are relevant to a discussion; Quantum Mechanics in Rigged Hilbert Space Language by Rafael de la Madrid Modino:

http://galaxy.cs.lamar.edu/~rafaelm/webdis.pdf

The purpose of a PhD program extends beyond producing a dissertation (thesis). It's a transformative journey that equips you with the skills and mindset of a researcher, fostering personal growth and intellectual curiosity.

Some think it is a necessity to become a researcher. It isn't. My Operations Research lecturer famously did not have a PhD, but rather a DSc, which you get by submitting work you already have published. He was grabbed by IBM before doing his PhD. Dyson famously worked with Bethe and Feynman (and was a good friend of Feynman) to produce his groundbreaking work linking the approaches of Schwinger, Feynman, and Tomonaga. That alone was worthy of a DSc (and a Nobel Prize, but they already had the max of three in Feynman, Schwinger, and Tomonaga), but he just couldn't be bothered; in fact, he was not even a fan of the system. It is rumoured Feynman was secretly jealous because he wanted to say - hey buddy even I know that, and I do not have a PhD. When Dyson was lecturing on his work, Feynman knew all about it. He sat at the back of the lecture and kept all those nearby in stitches with jokes. In the end, he said - you're in Doc - meaning, of course, for him, a PhD was irrelevant. A dissertation is important as it is an actual published work that must be formally defended, but the real value of a PhD is the mentoring you get on doing research. This can be got in many ways, as my Operations Research professor and Dyson can attest to.

Thanks
Bill

Good to remember. But also unlikely to recur.

At the time, high school graduates were as rare as college graduates today, college graduates were as rare as people with graduate degrees are today, and people with graduate degrees were proportionately more rare.

Academia was hiring like mad to meet GI Bill and then Baby Boom driven rising demand. U.S. states were starting new colleges and universities left and right.

The PhD system itself was still in its early days (one of the few institutional and intellectual products of Germany that wasn't shunned once WWII began).

Computer science saw something similar in the early days when many of the people who went on to become big names in the tech industry were hired (or started businesses) while still in college and dropped out, because the demand was so great that credentials didn't matter at first. These days, there's a little of that spirit left, but it is waning.

 

[bhobba]

At the time, high school graduates were as rare as college graduates today, college graduates were as rare as people with graduate degrees are today, and people with graduate degrees were proportionately more rare.

High school graduation will mean nothing in the future - it is like that in Australia, without going into the details. Apprentasips will be merged with degrees, e.g. an electrical apprenticeship and an electrical engineering degree (the professional bodies are already looking at how it would work). It is basically like that for nurses. In year ten, you complete a diploma in nursing in over 2-3 years. You are an enrolled nurse and will become a registered nurse after a further 3-4 years of part-time study. Everyone who can get a college degree should (estimated by some to be about 80% of the population). It will be the new HS. People will change careers several times in their working lives, likely getting some postgraduate qualification. Or perhaps be really radical and embrace the FIRE (financially Independent retirement early) movement.

My old alma mater had a professional doctorate in computing but has now scrapped it. They now mostly do PhDs, many with an applied emphasis eg:
https://research.qut.edu.au/adm/

Excellent preparation for working life.

Thanks
Bill

 

[DrDu]

Remarkably?

The Soviet Union produced perhaps a half-dozen Nobel prizes then and after. The US alone produced around 100 in that period. The entire USSR was comparable to maybe Canada.

Who gets Nobel has always been a highly political decision. Many people only got the prize after the fall of the iron wall, like Ginzburg and Abrikovov. For scientists in the SU, it was usually not possible to publish in western journals.