When to Buy a "New" Car if Driving a High Mileage Old One?

[kyphysics]

My 2004 Honda Civic has 208,000 miles on it.

No major repairs on it are needed at the moment. But just curious if there is some formula for determining when it's best to buy a "new" (really I mean "newer," since I'm open to used cars too) car when your current old one has gotten up in age and/or mileage?

 

[DaveC426913]

The formula is:
n = DxM / O
where
D= How badly I want a different car
M = how much money I have
O = How well my old car is doing

If n is large, buy another car.

BTW, Hondas - especially Civics - last, like cockroaches after a nuclear war. And they retain their value.

 

[jim hardy]

Only 208 K ?
A friend has 450,000 miles on his old Toyota station wagon.
I put 280,000 on a Dodge Caravan and gave it to a neighbor. He put on another 40,000 on before wrecking it.My advice -
build a carport to keep the dew from starting rust and the sun from wrecking the plastic
attend to lubrication, oil changes(including automatic transmission every few years)
fix things as they break or wear out
keep it until enough of the 'gadgets' don't work anymore that it's just too much frustration.

The time to replace yours is when a neighbor decides to part with a "Garage Queen" low mileage car that you know is a good one .

 

[OCR]

The formula is:
n = DxM / O

... I'll buy that.[COLOR=#black]..[/COLOR]

 

[kyphysics]

BTW, Hondas - especially Civics - last, like cockroaches after a nuclear war. And they retain their value.

Interesting.

 

[kyphysics]

Only 208 K ?
A friend has 450,000 miles on his old Toyota station wagon.
I put 280,000 on a Dodge Caravan and gave it to a neighbor. He put on another 40,000 on before wrecking it.

My advice -
build a carport to keep the dew from starting rust and the sun from wrecking the plastic
attend to lubrication, oil changes(including automatic transmission every few years)
fix things as they break or wear out
keep it until enough of the 'gadgets' don't work anymore that it's just too much frustration.

The time to replace yours is when a neighbor decides to part with a "Garage Queen" low mileage car that you know is a good one .

Not sure where I had heard it in the past, but I seemed to read/hear that 200,000 to 250,000 is sort of the "breaking point" for many cars where things really start to break down and the cost of repairs is often worth more than the car.

Although, I guess if the "outer shell" of a car is in good condition, then it can in theory last "forever," no? All one would have to do is replace the engine stuff.

I think I also read that most of the high costs of repair post-200K-250K miles is due to high labor costs, so if you're a mechanic or someone who knows his/her way aorund cars and can do the labor yourself, then it's just the cost of parts, which isn't that bad. I, too, read cars can get up to 300,000 (and maybe more) in miles and be still fine.

I looked my car up and if assuming "good condition" it can take in $1,200 trade-in value and $2-3,000 in owner sale value. Not bad. I thought it was closer to $1,000 owner sale value, since I figured after 200K miles that it's likely to fall apart soon and only be good for junk yard parts salvage value (usually around $1,000 for a car like mine I think).

Only gripe I have is that my car smells bad. Lots of food stains soaked into the carpet over years of eating fast food in there. I'm a slob who doesn't vacuum it either, nor do much of any other interior cleaning. I stopped caring around the 11 year mark, lol. I WOULD, however, take good care of a new car and never eat in there again. Just had some bad habits back in the day and got lazy with cleaning over time.

 

[jim hardy]

Not sure where I had heard it in the past, but I seemed to read/hear that 200,000 to 250,000 is sort of the "breaking point" for many cars where things really start to break down and the cost of repairs is often worth more than the car.

I've seen two Escorts just like mine in the junkyard recently. Both had broken timing belts. That's a $150 DIY job probably $600 outsourced.
Since they took the lead out of gasoline engines seem to go forever.

I think the tipping point has to be when monthly cost of repairs (plus aggravation) exceeds the depreciation (and interest) on a newer one.

 

[Mark44]

Not sure where I had heard it in the past, but I seemed to read/hear that 200,000 to 250,000 is sort of the "breaking point" for many cars where things really start to break down and the cost of repairs is often worth more than the car.

Although, I guess if the "outer shell" of a car is in good condition, then it can in theory last "forever," no? All one would have to do is replace the engine stuff.

Quite a few cars aren't engineered to last 200,000+ miles. The ones that last that long have to be maintained well, with regular oil and oil filter changes, and keeping the other fluids fresh. There's a lot more than "engine stuff." Besides the engine, there's a transmission and differential or transaxle, brakes, suspension, exhaust system, charging system, and electrical system, including numerous computers in modern cars to control the fuel injection and other components. All of these parts can wear out or stop working.

I think I also read that most of the high costs of repair post-200K-250K miles is due to high labor costs, so if you're a mechanic or someone who knows his/her way aorund cars and can do the labor yourself, then it's just the cost of parts, which isn't that bad.

Repair parts aren't cheap. Sure, you can save the cost of labor if you can install them yourself, but only a small minority of people have the skill, tools, and inclination to do anything more complicated than changing wiper blades. A couple of years ago the voltage regulator on my '07 Ford Focus went out. In the olden days, the voltage regulator was a separate component, but these days, it's integrated with the alternator, so that meant I need to get a new alternator. An alternator is pretty simple to install, but because of the placement on my car, I would have needed to take a lot of other stuff off just to get at the thing, so I opted to take it into a nearby Ford dealer. The alternator was about $350 and the labor was about the same.

There's also the issue of being able to diagnose a problem and know which part has failed. It's easy to throw parts at a problem, and hope that one of them fixes the problem, but that's a very expensive way to solve the problem. When cars had carburetors, it was a simple matter to rebuild a carb, but with fuel injection, and all of the related electronics that go with it, this is way beyond the competency of the average car owner.

I, too, read cars can get up to 300,000 (and maybe more) in miles and be still fine.

Maybe some cars can theoretically last 300,000 miles, if they are scrupulously maintained, but for the vast majority of cars, I doubt that they last half this long.

 

[Mark44]

Since they took the lead out of gasoline engines seem to go forever.

I don't think the absence of lead has anything to do with it. Probably more significant, I believe, are the closer tolerance of parts, fuel injection, which meters the fuel better (so excess fuel doesn't strip oil from the cylinder walls, and better engine oils, particularly the synthetic oils.There might be some other factors I haven't considered.

 

[OCR]

That's a $150 DIY job probably $600 outsourced.

...

Both had broken timing belts.

The caveat... possible bent valve stems and piston dings... ?

 

[kyphysics]

I've seen two Escorts just like mine in the junkyard recently. Both had broken timing belts. That's a $150 DIY job probably $600 outsourced.
Since they took the lead out of gasoline engines seem to go forever.

I think the tipping point has to be when monthly cost of repairs (plus aggravation) exceeds the depreciation (and interest) on a newer one.

Our family gets about a 15% discount on car-related repairs, due to a close friend of the family being a mechanic. He does most of our work for us at a cheaper labor rate to make some side money for himself.

re: depreciation of a new car - That's why, for me, I'm sold on buying a used car. I'm looking into these so-called brokers, who buy them off of auction. Supposedly, that's where you can make the most bang for your buck with really only one risk (you have to trust the broker, b/c you don't get to see the car first).

We have a friend of the family who's a broker, coincidentally. ...choices, choices...new car using trustworthy broker friend or old car using trustworthy mechanic friend. I honestly feel pretty fortunate my dad knows all these guys. If there's not a "car" thread already at PF, I hereby recommend one be made. It's a topic I don't mind spending time learning about (for fun and practical purposes like this).

 

[kyphysics]

Maybe some cars can theoretically last 300,000 miles, if they are scrupulously maintained, but for the vast majority of cars, I doubt that they last half this long.

Yeah, I think my conception of a car was just that it's:

a.) an outer shell (which is no joke, as even a bumper can cost $1,000 to replace!)
b.) mechanical inside

If you keep the outer shell well maintained, then it's just about fixing the machinery inside. And that, in turn, is a function:

a.) quality of parts
b.) design
c.) user/owner/mechanic maintenance and care for the vehicle

I think what my uncle was saying to me was that if your outer shell is in good condition, then you can in theory just replace all the machinery inside (with new parts) and that cost would be cheaper than buying a brand new or used car (which also has new parts, a new shell, and just more advanced technology).

I think he was saying that even if it costs thousands to get new stuff "inside" your old car, that's probably still much cheaper (by the thousands) than getting a new car. Or, could he also be missing something?

 

[Vanadium 50]

even if it costs thousands to get new stuff "inside" your old car,

It depends on how many thousands and how much stuff. And how many things you need to replace before you get to the root of the problem.

Both had broken timing belts. That's a $150 DIY job probably $600 outsourced.

It's not the belt replacement that costs money. It's fixing what is left of the engine when one goes.

 

[jim hardy]

I don't think the absence of lead has anything to do with it.

You must not have been changing your own oil before mid 1980's... It no longer comes out with that gray metal powder in it.

The caveat... possible bent valve stems and piston dings... ?

That's an issue. I won't own anything with an "Interference engine" where loss of a timing belt wrecks them.

 

[Vanadium 50]

won't own anything with an "Interference engine" where loss of a timing belt wrecks them.

That excludes you from a large number of engines - some of which get great fuel economy for the horsepower. Personally, my strategy is to change the timing belt/chain when recommended instead.

 

[Mark44]

I don't think the absence of lead has anything to do with it.

You must not have been changing your own oil before mid 1980's... It no longer comes out with that gray metal powder in it.

I've been changing my own oil since the '60s. The presence of metal particles (or lack of) is probably more a function of the formulation of the oil rather than the presence or absence of lead in the fuel. Removing lead (tetraethyl lead) from gasoline did have an effect on engines of that period, as the lead cushioned the impact of valves on valve seats. Since then, valve seats have been made harder to withstand the pounding. The gray metal powder you were seeing might have been aluminum from pistons or iron from the rings or cylinder walls. A significant amount of wear comes right when the engine is first started, when the cylinder walls aren't well lubricated. Newer oil formulations help alleviate this problem at startup.

 

[jim hardy]

Personally, my strategy is to change the timing belt/chain when recommended instead.

Good Man ! That sure beats getting towed home ...

 

[kyphysics]

It depends on how many thousands and how much stuff. And how many things you need to replace before you get to the root of the problem.

Right. Logically, that's true.

I would want to look into the cost of total replacement (not just partial stuff) of the interior, as that would be the upper range and worst case scenario projection and I could use that to compare it with the cost of a new/used car.

There might be some other factors I'm missing like warranties that come with new vehicles, the availability of parts of older cars (both the outer shell and interior machinery), and trade-in/owner sale value of the older car that could decrease the value of an interior remake of my car.

re: the last point - It's one of those things where even if you can get a totally new replacement of parts inside and you have a well-maintained outer shell, a used car buyer may simply shake their head at the age of your car and not trust you if you ever wanted to or needed to sell it. You could be trying around a 15 y/o car with a brand new engine/interior that's better running than an 8 year old car and a non-car person wouldn't believe you.

Edit: Mark44 makes a good point, too, about the wear and tear and durability of the outer shell. I currently don't know much about that, but will look into it. The worst case scenario is that you replace the interior machinery only to have the outer shell fall apart due to age.

 

[DaveC426913]

Good Man ! That sure beats getting towed home ...

Yep. Just this spring. Mechanic said 'timing belt blew', so I just left it in his back lot till the wreckers came for it.
I really liked that car.

 

[jim hardy]

Mechanic said 'timing belt blew', so I just left it in his back lot till the wreckers came for it.
I really liked that car.

On my Dodge Caravan with 3.0 engine replacing the belt was about a four hour job.
On my Ford Escort it was better part of two days because of all the stuff that has to be removed to get access. Engine is really shoe-horned in there.
Both are non-interference so if doesn't hurt if the belt breaks , but since having got stranded once i do them preemptively..

Why do i put up with old cars and the grease and skinned knuckles, i often wonder ?
It's kinda fun fixing things. Must be some sort of psychological satisfaction, not unlike solving crossword puzzles . . .

 

[Anon5000]

When it breaks. Keep the new one on the radar, and maybe even buy it if you are at a time when the price is good (sales, or the salesman needs to move stock to make payroll or whatever), but basically until it breaks.

I have no idea why people even think about a second SECOND hand car that has like 100-150k miles plus on it, just drive it into the ground.

You're welcome.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

My 2004 Honda Civic has 208,000 miles on it.

No major repairs on it are needed at the moment. But just curious if there is some formula for determining when it's best to buy a "new" (really I mean "newer," since I'm open to used cars too) car when your current old one has gotten up in age and/or mileage?

I'm in the same boat, but I have an 04 Accord. Mine only has 160k miles. Last oil change they told me I needed to replace the oil pan. She's starting to show her age, but I want to hold on as long as I can.

Do those driving really old cars think new safety features are worth getting a new car?

 

[Mark44]

Do those driving really old cars think new safety features are worth getting a new car?

How old is "a really old car"? My wife just bought a new Toyota Rav4 that alerts her when she crosses the centerline in a road. When I'm driving, my full focus is on driving, so that's a feature that's not important to me. One feature that I like, though, is the rearview camera. She had an older Rav4 (2010) that had a rearview camera, but the display was only about 2" square, so it wasn't very helpful.

 

[jim hardy]

Do those driving really old cars think new safety features are worth getting a new car?

I detest them and refuse to own anything newer than 2003. Call me Luddite.

Last oil change they told me I needed to replace the oil pan.

What goes wrong with an oil pan ? Get a look at it yourself.
On anything i ever owned they were made of really ductile iron so when i hit a rock they deform not puncture. Over the years I've hammered out several big dents .
Leaks around top of the pan usually respond well to just tightening the bolts a little bit

Kids in many places overtighten the drain plug and strip the threads. Auto parts stores sell replacement plugs with slightly oversize threads and a self-tapping end , to fix that exact problem. About six bucks.
And that's the main reason i change my own oil. I got tired of fixing stripped drains.
Walmart now says they torque the drain plug . I watched a kid there overtighten mine with a huge wrench then grab a torque wrench. Sure enough it clicked and he told me that was 20 ft-pounds, oblivious that the 'click' only means it's AT LEAST 20 ft-pounds. When i got home i checked, It was actually closer to 60. What the kid thought was the gasket compressing was actually the threads yielding. Fortunately the threads on the plug yielded before the threads in the pan and a new drain plug fixed it..

old jim

 

[OCR]

Last oil change they told me I needed to replace the oil pan.

Did they give a reason for the need... ??
That might have been my "last oil change" there... ?

What goes wrong with an oil pan ?

I'm with Jim on this...

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Did they give a reason for the need... ??

Something like oil is collecting in it. I forget, it was a few months ago.

 

[jim hardy]

Something like oil is collecting in it.

"Snake oil" perhaps ?.

 

[DiracPool]

We have a lot of visiting professors, post-docs, and exchange student cycle through our lab. Just recently, this guy, M, from Hungary, exhausted his 6 month contract here, so he went back to Hungary. He is a pretty clever guy, though, and suckered me into buying his 2007 Chevy Impala before he left. Long story short, he had the car listed on Craigslist for $2900. By the time the back and forth were done, I ended up buying it for $1700 cash. Problem, though, is that, in Massachsetts, where I live now, they kill you on private-buyer purchases. To avoid paying excessive taxes on the trade, I filled out a bill of sale for $1200, seeing as the tax rate was 6.25% Didn't work. They tax you on your bill of sale or the KELLY BLUE BOOK, whichever is larger. So that was a no win.

Not only that, but in MA, if you buy a car from guy across the street, guess what, You got to get BRAND NEW LICENSE PLATES if you want to be street legal. What a fu#%$ng scam. So, by the time I walked out of the registration office, I was $500 into it over the initial $1700.

It doesn't end there. Now, after you get your new plates and new registration, you have to get a SAFETY CHECK. This is a ballbuster. They told me I need 4 NEW TIRES, a front end alignment, and smog thing, etc. So there's another $600 dollars.

So, at the end of the day, I'm going to be into it for roughly 3k. But that's ok, the car drives like a dream, it's got 171k miles but once I get the repairs I need for inspection I'm not anticipating puttin another nickle into it.

As far as the OP's principal question, though, Warren Buffet was once quoted as saying that he drives a used car into the ground until it's cheaper to buy a new one (new meaning also a new "used" car) rather than to continue to fix the old one. So, that's basically the acid test.

 

[DiracPool]

Only gripe I have is that my car smells bad. Lots of food stains soaked into the carpet over years of eating fast food in there. I'm a slob who doesn't vacuum it either, nor do much of any other interior cleaning. I stopped caring around the 11 year mark, lol. I WOULD, however, take good care of a new car and never eat in there again. Just had some bad habits back in the day and got lazy with cleaning over time.

Haha. That reminds me of a funny story. In 1986 I was attending UCSB as an undergrad. My dad was a big shot stock broker back then (for Dean Witter, remember them?). So, the big shot stock broker, which he still is (Morgan Stanley now), instead of going Gordon Gecko on me and buying his kid a new Porshe, instead "bequeathed" me a 76' Plymouth Duster. I really didn't care, it was wheels and my surfboard fit inside it, so that's all I really cared about back then.

But, to the point of the response, there was this one incident...

One night I went to this popular Italian restaurant in IV (IV stands for "Isla Vista, the college town for UCSB. The cool kids say IV, though) and got spaghetti and meatballs and (I think) a chicken parmigiana plate for the co-ed who was keeping my bed warm. You know how they package these things. It's the aluminum foil bowl with the paper lid that that the aluminum crimps over. So, it was something like that. In my rush to get back to the co-ed, I hastingly stacked the two meals on top of one another on the passengers seat. The spaghetti and meatballs was on top.

So, in a classic physics experiment, in my hurry to get home, I went RIPPING around this one corner, and, sure enough, the spaghetti and meatballs went sliding off the top of the chicken parmigiana plate and emptied into the crevasses between the seat and the passenger door. I felt so stupid that my solution to this was to refuse to clean it up. It was the ultimate expression of denial.

So, sure enough, three months later, there stood the emptied spaghetti in the passenger door jam. I didn't give a F*&%. Hence, the Plymouth Duster was subsequently dubbed, the "Spaghetti-mobile." It's a true story, I swear. My dad thought that was the funniest thing in the world. So much so that, about a year later, he had a similar incident, and in the spirit of defiance for a self-imposed idiotic act, decided not to clean up a similar "take out" catastrophe he created in his car.

I wasn't there to witness his incident so I can't speak to it, but I believe him.

 

[jim hardy]

Not only that, but in MA, if you buy a car from guy across the street, guess what, You got to get BRAND NEW LICENSE PLATES if you want to be street legal. What a fu#%$ng scam. So, by the time I walked out of the registration office, I was $500 into it over the initial $1700.

It doesn't end there. Now, after you get your new plates and new registration, you have to get a SAFETY CHECK. This is a ballbuster. They told me I need 4 NEW TIRES, a front end alignment, and smog thing, etc. So there's another $600 dollars.

You guys ought to throw another Tea Party.
Bumper sticker ?

 

[kyphysics]

So, sure enough, three months later, there stood the emptied spaghetti in the passenger door jam. I didn't give a F*&%. Hence, the Plymouth Duster was subsequently dubbed, the "Spaghetti-mobile." It's a true story, I swear. My dad thought that was the funniest thing in the world. So much so that, about a year later, he had a similar incident, and in the spirit of defiance for a self-imposed idiotic act, decided not to clean up a similar "take out" catastrophe he created in his car.

I wasn't there to witness his incident so I can't speak to it, but I believe him.

heh heh

Y'all be crazy.

Thing is...a smelly, nasty car won't be possible if/when I get married. I doubt any spouse puts up with that!

edit: Just this week I found 10-day old french fries in my passenger side floor. Forgot I dropped some earlier... :) With the weather so humid and hot now, rotting food can get super gross.

 

[kyphysics]

Do those driving really old cars think new safety features are worth getting a new car?

Not sure which ones you're thinking of, but I can't think of any off the top of my head that would make me that much safer.

I do all the driving school taught stuff. Buckle up. Look both ways. Check my blind spot, etc. etc. It's led to me being in only one accident where it was my fault. And tha'ts because I was eating and driving and braked too late. Head was down a second too long to eat my Taco Bell burrito and left me with not enough response time. Very very very thankfully that was a minor accident as I wasn't going very fast. Just the thought of it scares me when I replay it in my mind.

But, yeah, other than that incident, I've not had any accidents that were my fault just from using good driving habits.

 

[Mark44]

Last oil change they told me I needed to replace the oil pan

What goes wrong with an oil pan ?

Something like oil is collecting in it.

Oil is supposed to collect in the oil pan, but if "something like oil" is collecting there, that's not the fault of the oil pan, unless it has a hole in it and something besides oil is getting in. There's not much that can go wrong with an oil pan, short of it being punctured or bent so that it doesn't make a good seal with the underside of the engine block, or the threads of the hole for the drain plug being stripped.

 

[Vanadium 50]

you have to get a SAFETY CHECK

Not a safety check! The fiends!

 

[Mark44]

Not only that, but in MA, if you buy a car from guy across the street, guess what, You got to get BRAND NEW LICENSE PLATES if you want to be street legal. What a fu#%$ng scam. So, by the time I walked out of the registration office, I was $500 into it over the initial $1700.

As I recall, you formerly lived in Seattle. Washington does the same as you describe, although you don't have to get a safety check. The way people drive in Boston, a safety check is probably a good idea.

It won't be long before you get why MA is also called "Taxachusetts."