Where am I going wrong (energy transfer between black bodies)?

  • B
  • Thread starter Steve4Physics
  • Start date
  • #1
Steve4Physics
Homework Helper
Gold Member
2022 Award
1,662
1,530
TL;DR Summary
Where am I going wrong (energy transfer between black bodies)?
I have a problem with a very basic ‘thought experiment’. I can’t see my mistake(s) - I’m pretty sure there must be at least one! So I’m accepting likely humiliation/embarrassment and asking if anyone can explain where I’m going wrong...

The surface of a black body (BB1) is at temperature T and radiates at R W/m².

An ‘optical’ system collects/redirects/focuses the radiated energy from 1m² of BB1 onto a smaller black body (BB2) of area 10⁻⁴m². We now have R watts directed onto 10⁻⁴m². That’s an incident intensity onto BB2 of 10⁴R W/m².

When BB2 reaches equilibrium, the power it receives (R watts) will be the same as the power it emits. So BB2 will emit R watts from an area of 10⁻⁴m². BB2’s surface is radiating at 10⁴R W/m².

Since a black body's radiated power/unit area is proportional to ##T_{abs}^4## this means BB2’s temperature must be 10T.

So energy is spontaneously flowing from an object at temperature T to one at temperature 10T. Err...
 

Answers and Replies

  • #2
Lnewqban
Homework Helper
Gold Member
2,752
1,515
You still only have 1 watt of radiated power to be transferred among bodies.
BB2 can't radiate more than it receives from the 1 m x 1 m of BB1 surface.
 
  • #3
33,876
11,583
You appear to be assuming that all of the energy leaving a 1 square meter surface can be focused down to 1 square cm. It cannot. This is related to the conservation of etendue and view factors. I believe, without calculating it, that at most 1/10000 of the light can be focused that small.
 
  • Like
Likes mfb, Keith_McClary and Steve4Physics
  • #4
Steve4Physics
Homework Helper
Gold Member
2022 Award
1,662
1,530
You still only have 1 watt of radiated power to be transferred among bodies.
BB2 can't radiate more than it receives from the 1 m x 1 m of BB1 surface.
Not quite with you. The radiated power from 1m² BB1 is equal to the power received by (the much smaller) BB2. This, in turn is the same as the radiated power from BB2. Agreed,

But this means the power/m² radiated by BB2 is 10⁴ times the power/m² originally radiated by BB1. (Because BB2 is so much smaller than BB1.)

From the Stefan-Boltzmann law, this means BB2's temperature must be (⁴√(10⁴) =) 10 times that of BB1.
 
  • #5
Steve4Physics
Homework Helper
Gold Member
2022 Award
1,662
1,530
You appear to be assuming that all of the energy leaving a 1 square meter surface can be focused down to 1 square cm. It cannot. This is related to the conservation of etendue and view factors. I believe, without calculating it, that at most 1/10000 of the light can be focused that small.
Aha! I have indeed made that assumption. I'm not familiar with the conservation of etendue. I'll go and do some reading. Many thanks!

(Minor edit.)
 
Last edited:

Suggested for: Where am I going wrong (energy transfer between black bodies)?

Replies
17
Views
657
  • Last Post
Replies
2
Views
356
Replies
8
Views
150
Replies
19
Views
416
Replies
23
Views
766
Replies
14
Views
639
  • Last Post
Replies
12
Views
1K
  • Last Post
Replies
3
Views
535
Replies
4
Views
673
  • Last Post
Replies
5
Views
906
Top