Where Can I Find Real-Life Nerds Like Me?

[Calrid]

I don't find the fact that Let epsilon is less than 0 funny at all. Is there something wrong with me?

 

[JDStupi]

I was trying to make the general point that if you're going to go into geek space, don't treat it like a field trip (and yeah, I'll extend that to men too) in part 'cause in my LUG yesterday a hot girl walked in and the guys started jumping on her like flies and it was beyond off-putting. It sometimes feels like the only way to get taken seriously is to out geek the guys.

Just out of curiosity, why is this bad? It doesn't seem like they're necessarily "objectifying" the girl, but when you see a good looking girl who is also potentially interesting and intelligent, you are going to be interested. Moreover, good on them for "jumping on her", how are they supposed to potentially get in a relationship with her or get to know her if they don't talk to her?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was necessarily good either. I wasn't there, so I don't know how it went down "It's not what you say, it's how you say it", so these guys could've "jumped on her" in the wrong way, I just doing see that in it self as being bad.

It also depends on the age range we're talking here, because "objectifying" women, is going to happen at least when you're young. We wan't sex, you can't love each girl for her personality, some of them are sexual objects to you. That isn't to say they all are, that isn't to say that's what women are, or even that you think the person your sleeping with is inferior, simply that for you they were there for your sexual satisfaction that night and you may not have talked to them otherwise.

If anything, or atleast for me, you would be less likely to "objectify" the smart girl, because if you are just looking for sex, it doesn't matter if they're smart, however if you're looking for companionship, personality is a big thing.

If anything I'm saying is controversial, people aren't acknowledging the facts. You walk down the street, you see a hot girl, you may know that she's not your "type" or she's dumb as a bag of rocks. Doesn't stop you from wanting to bang her. So if you have the fortitude, you talk to her and try to get laid. It's Machiavellian, it's Politrikin. The interesting question is why do we have to go through some weird social game in order to get laid? An odd modern mating ritual. Where do we draw the line? Your Politrikin and being Machiavellian a lot in your social lives, sexual or otherwise.

You say "it seems the only way to be taken seriously is to out geek the guys". I don't know how other guys are, I take a girl seriously whether she is a geek or not. That is to say, a girl doesn't have to be a geek to be taken seriously, that's just more providential stupid BS. A girl doesn't have to be "nerdy" to be taken seriously, there is more to life then nerdiness. For me, she only has to be taken seriously if she is a person interested in something "meaningful". What the statement could also be is "It seems the only way to get taken seriously by women is to out-objectify the other guys". Sad, but true.

But again. It's all relative to your goal. If your goal is to get laid and soley to get laid, you will just play the game for your piece of the pie. If your goal is to get in a relationship, then you better come up with somethin better than your standard bag of "tricks", because nobodys connectin to a bag of tricks. (Well, surprisingly a lot of people build relationshjips off bags of tricks, but usually to their demise)

Girls want sex and guys want sex and the guys who don't "objectify" or "play the game" and "fake the funk, to stake the trunk" don't usually get laid. This leads to less know-how in getting laid, less experience, less potential confidence and then less desirability to girls. Girls are as much to blame for their own "objectification" as men are.
None of this is universal. And you may not objectify women and still find a good one to get in a relationship with, but again that's because getting laid and gettin in a relationship are two different goals.

 

[Smiles302]

I agree with the above. Sometimes it's nice to be objectified.

Once it's respectful

 

[story645]

Just out of curiosity, why is this bad?

Because when she's new to the group, it has the potential to scare her away, which is basically what happened to friend of mine when she came with me. This one poor girl becomes the main object of focus/has the spot-light on her and she's already a minority in the group, and making her standout more can make her uncomfortable. It ends up very much playing into the dynamics of female participation in STEM fields.

Moreover, good on them for "jumping on her", how are they supposed to potentially get in a relationship with her or get to know her if they don't talk to her?

*shrugs* It's not going to win many points if she thinks the only reason you're talking to her is to hit on her (at least this is my other friends experience with the guys in her engineering program).

Damn, even I think I'm coming across as a jealous brat when I really just want more girls to stick around and don't think stuff like this helps.

 

[Femme_physics]

Being the only girl in class, I like the objectification. They keep it tasteful. I don't mind being called "sweety" "babe" etc... they make me feel very comfortable, in general, and they see that I love the field of engineering a lot and I even help those who struggle (although I'm sometimes aware of the "I'll figure it out on my own, I'm a man" attitude). I think girls are missing out on the fun when they take the usual females fields of design, biology or whatever. I can't imagine going to class and not feeling super-special! Actually, I did in the past, it sucked :(

Although I'm not in the field I am because of the ratio, I'm just lucked-out the field I love has this ratio. :)

Guys rule, girls suck. No pun intended... :P

 

[story645]

Being the only girl in class, I like the objectification./QUOTE]
I get you, hell I tell girls all the time that they have no excuse for not getting recommendations 'cause they automatically stand out and I play up the girl thing sometimes by making jokes about how I can get away with anything 'cause I'm so adorable/cute/etc.

I dunno, gah, hate I seem to have hijacked this thread into the pros/cons of treating girls as "different" in a STEM context. It's hard 'cause on the one hand the objectification is useful, on the other you end with people thinking you're getting special treatment for being female and that hurts cred a lot. When this topic came up at school meetings, women consistently complained about Prof's who were easier on females 'cause it's more troublesome than anything else.

 

[Femme_physics]

I definitely feel I get preferential treatment from the professors...they're just always staying late to explain me stuff over and over, make sure I got all the stuff in my usb drive, and a few of them even told me "it's nice to have a girl in the class since there are so few if any in these studies"... can't say I'm not enjoying this. ^^ It's the best. Still can't believe girls are missing out on that. It's so much fun.

I guess the biggest downside is that employers in the field of mechanical engineers/mechatronics tend to want guys, tough guys, since there may be some rough work involved and the automatic impression of women is not "hard worker" but rather "someone who'll cry and whine that she'd break a nail during work"... whereas guys would give it their all to their cool and manly engineering profession. One guy in 2nd year of mechatronics studies even rudely told me "what'd you do with this degree?" I argued that a lot of women are into robotics, esp. in the US. The fact it's uncommon in Israel is a shame. It's a diverse field, but the job market in general favors men, and the ratio shows that. (at least in Israel - a tough military-culture country)

With respect to others knowing about my preferential treatment...meh, who cares, probably, but so far they haven't expressed it. My best friends/classmate did once joke around that I suck up to the teacher a lot and joked that's how I got A+. I don't mind the hijack, it's an interesting topic... but whatever ppl want to talk about :)

 

[Smiles302]

I've never once felt to be treated any differently in lectures than my classmates. Though Ireland I doubt would be known as a tough military country.

 

[Femme_physics]

Not so much in the lectures themselves either, but more after class and during intermissions. Maybe it's because of my curious nature and less because I'm a girl...dunno. The flirty nature definitely helps.

 

[I like Serena]

I've always wondered why there are so few women in the technical sciences.
Where are all the female nerds?
Does anyone know?

 

[I like Serena]

Hold on, there's another episode of the big bang theory out.
I need to watch it.
I'll get back to you later .

 

[Femme_physics]

But you asked the questions...er,...so you need to get back to yourself later..?

Edit: Oh, I think/hope you were talking about the moment of inertia thread ^^

 

[Lazernugget]

lol True...again though, I find it annoying I have to explain jokes I tell, even to the smartest people I know...anyone know how to use a Nabla? I'm bored and feel like learning...

 

[jhae2.718]

You mean del (\nabla)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del

 

[I like Serena]

But you asked the questions...er,...so you need to get back to yourself later..?

Edit: Oh, I think/hope you were talking about the moment of inertia thread ^^

Yes, this is a temporal quantum anomaly.

 

[I like Serena]

lol True...again though, I find it annoying I have to explain jokes I tell, even to the smartest people I know...anyone know how to use a Nabla? I'm bored and feel like learning...

Here's a nice article about nabla: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_in_cylindrical_and_spherical_coordinates

It should keep you busy for a while, especially if you try to deduce the formulas.

 

[Steppn]

I've always wondered why there are so few women in the technical sciences.
Where are all the female nerds?
Does anyone know?

...it's complicated, it can vary culture to country, a link to (some) more sites with debate, discussion and research articles:

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/links_sci.html"

Just on the objectifying of women, no, I do not like being objectified, or considered a sex relief gaming centre, I'm not particularly interested in sex for sex's sake with strangers, one night stands or a man's physical appearance-based-attraction.

I am no prude, I love intimacy, I have a healthy, robust, creative, enjoyable, sex drive/life-but my personal preference is for it 'within a relationship' and the relationship is something I am selective about. I don't consider it all some game, (just stating my preferences/beliefs here), and while attention from males can be sometimes flattering, it does absolutely nothing to my desire to jump into bed with them. Complete opposite, thankyou, but 'no' thankyou.

And the other thing with me, is my self esteem, self confidence, self worth...'how I regard myself' is healthy enough, I don't need or want guys to be fawning, or trying to charm me, just treat me with respect as a human is fine by me, as I would hope I respect and treat them. If that makes sense.

I have no issue with what others prefer/do, (given it's all consensual)-it's none of my business.

I am a get-my-mind-girl-before-the-body...prior to anyone possibly begin exchanging body fluids with me.

"Story645" I am enjoying your perspective, and your comments in this thread, I do understand what you are posting about. I get your point on what can be almost intimidating, by some males, to females, 'sometimes'.

Thankyou!

 

[Steppn]

Being called 'honey', 'sweety' and 'babe' etc by my family elders, 'think grandparents era-ish' is not offensive to me, I take it with the intention meant, that of a term of endearment, (they call me by my name anyway-mostly), however by peers, work collegues, university staff, teachers, etc.. I would ask them to please address me by name.

Very, very few do this, (use pet names, my observation here), nor have I heard any female colleagues having been addressed this way, and we can be involved (often) in male workplace fields.

Actually, I thought all that stuff went out with pointy toe shoes? Have pointy toe shoes made a comeback?

 

[story645]

Have pointy toe shoes made a comeback?

Yes, though endearments have generally been filtered out in light of sexual harassment lawsuits and the like. I don't mind some profs using 'em, but it's totally situation/context/culture/personality dependent.

I've never once felt to be treated any differently in lectures than my classmates.

I haven't either, but in one of my classes a prof was obviously going far easier on a female classmate than he would have on a male one. It's kinda random and also somewhat dependent on the girl too.

Femme_physics

I'm also wondering if your experience is a bit different because Israel has gender parity in a lot of STEM field, so even though it's rare to see women in robotics in Israel* it's nothing special to see 'em doing math and science.

*There aren't many women in robotics in the states either, at least from what I experienced doing the competitions and the like. It's gotten better, but for the longest time it seemed like all the girls at robotics competitions were either programmers or girlfriends.

 

[Femme_physics]

Ah well. It's still a good comeback to all these assholes who look down on me because I'm a girl. Seriously, it's annoying. What's so manly about it? I keep telling them, do I have to lift heavy machines in this profession? Is that it? I wonder where does the part of physical strength being important comes in in this field?Well, I don't mind being the underdog :) In fact, I thrive on that!

 

[Andre]

FP,

Could it be that the explanation for all this is somewhat different. Going on thin ice now and maybe it has been said before, but I'm just thinking out loud.

It appears that genes play an important role in how we behave. The genes want their owners to reproduce, whatever species, and for mammals that is a bit complicated due to the rather big difference in effort between the genders, required to produce offspring. Males just go and replicate whereas females are required to do a substantial investment in carrying, nursing, and often raising (alone). Optimizing the quality of the offspring, the female must therefore be very careful selecting her partner, whereas males just go and reproduce. Remember, still generalizing for mammals.

However as the females are selective in their choice, males have to demonstrate why they should be chosen. They must proof to be worthy by being superior in .. fill in whatever is required to be superior in. Experts call this behavior courtship. So in case of the Homo sapiens academensis, smartness is the thing to be superior in. Hence the males must prove that they are, or their genes get frustrated, being a failure. But what will happen if the female competes for smartness or even outsmarts them?

Could it be that this is what you experience?

Just my two cents.

 

[DanP]

One guy in 2nd year of mechatronics studies even rudely told me "what'd you do with this degree?" I argued that a lot of women are into robotics, esp. in the US. The fact it's uncommon in Israel is a shame. It's a diverse field, but the job market in general favors men, and the ratio shows that. (at least in Israel - a tough military-culture country)

Are you sure that the job market prefers man, or it may be that the job market only reflects the statistical preference of females on other jobs ?

In a word, why look at it as a discrimination against women, when it can be a simple reflection of the statistical choice women do regarding their careers ?

Looking at a ratio tells nothing about the causes of why that ratio exist in the first place. Remember , the fact that you choose a career in engineering does not make you a statistical significant marker of women behavior in regarding career choices. It may be very well that most women don't give a dime about going in engineering.

 

[story645]

I keep telling them, do I have to lift heavy machines in this profession? Is that it?

I've had to lift bots to repair them or work on them, (or to keep them up while my friend worked on them) but they haven't been all that heavy or I've had help. I think it's a girls shouldn't work with tools thing and misplaced chivalry.

It may be very well that most women don't give a dime about going in engineering.

Don't remind me. I just volunteered for a recruitment event to get girls interested in STEM fields and only two of the eight in my group were interested in STEM, and they both wanted to be in bio/pre-med. Girls in the hard sciences seem to be rare birds.

 

[DanP]

The fact it's uncommon in Israel is a shame. It's a diverse field, but the job market in general favors men, and the ratio shows that. (at least in Israel - a tough military-culture country)

:)

This bugs me a bit.

What exactly is your perception that Israel's military culture has with perception of women ?
IDF is different by most armed forces, in that they practice conscription of women. If anything, this practice shows that the "though military culture" has no gender biases, and should such biases exist, you should look for other causes then Israel's military culture.

 

[Femme_physics]

@ Andre
Maybe, but the way I see it we all just need to pass a bunch of major tests... so if we could all give each other a hand, male or female aside, we would only benefit from it at the bottom line. If you could just put your oh-so-mighty-ego aside, and you can differentiate your mating game with your degree pursuit, we might just get ahead and see how can we actually help each other. Neuroscience tells us that our brain compartmentalizes, so compartmentalize your ego/ego-brain-prowess/proving-yourself-better idea and you'll get far with the degree :)
But, perhaps I'm reading it wrong, since some strugglers do seek my help. I'm really enjoying mechanics.

@ DanP

I've actually made a presumption and stated it as a fact. Sorry. I'm trying to slap myself out of that lack of confidence. I keep thinking that employers will see it as a woman trying to play in the NBA instead of the WNBA. I hope not. I'll try to slap myself out of it. Do you guys have any famous female engineers I could name?

And yeah, it could not necessarily be military-culture, but it certainly doesn't help...dunno.

I've had to lift bots to repair them or work on them, (or to keep them up while my friend worked on them) but they haven't been all that heavy or I've had help. I think it's a girls shouldn't work with tools thing and misplaced chivalry.

Agreed!

 

[DanP]

And yeah, it could not necessarily be military-culture, but it certainly doesn't help...dunno.

I can't stop thinking at the ancient world. It was in Sparta, a classical militaristic system focused on excellence, where women enjoyed liberties and rights unmatched at that time anywhere else. Athens ? Maybe they invented democracy, but when it comes to women rights they where nothing compared to Sparta.

Not that this says anything a militaristic culture today, but still :P

 

[I like Serena]

I think a man in a technical science typically feels threatened by a woman, especially if that woman outperforms him.
In an old fashioned role pattern where the man is supposed to be the provider, it is hard to take if you can't be useful that way.
And even though this may be old fashioned, the patterns and feelings are still there.

It would make a guy be nasty to girl, just because he can't admit that he feels threatened and that he's in an emotional knot about it.
It wouldn't help if the guy was performing badly in his class to begin with.

 

[DanP]

I think a man in a technical science typically feels threatened by a woman, especially if that woman outperforms him.
In an old fashioned role pattern where the man is supposed to be the provider, it is hard to take if you can't be useful that way.
And even though this may be old fashioned, the patterns and feelings are still there.

Women in hard sciences are so under-represented that it is hard to take seriously the hypothesis of the threatened men. Especially when you argue it through the angle of "the provider". The bulk of the money in those fields go in the pockets of men, not women.

So, Id say you should start looking for another hypothesis.

 

[Steppn]

I believe we are born with the predisposition to 'love' science, to want to seek knowledge, to immerse in science, work in science (whatever the field). I do not believe it favors male or female, I think it can be 'brain hardwiring' and despite, regardless of gender.

There are commonalites between our more famous female and male scientists, (I say that because they are the ones I've had opportunity to observe).

The reason(s) more females are not representative in science fields are complex. To pick out one, a couple of reasons doesn't even begin to skim the surface. And it generalises.

I think any science person, regardless again of gender is interested in the work, the results, the research, the study, the OUTCOMES...and in this day and era what your gender is -is obselete.

To listen to any female scientist you won't necessarily hear her bemoan any glass ceiling, it's about the science, the unknowns you get into the game to begin with, to make a difference and achieve, research, get outcomes. That supercedes gender imparity, and keeps females (and males for that matter), coming back into science. It's impossible to 'not have a passion for science'. Whether you be of the softer, or the hardcore.

Just my thoughts.

Science and passion for it has transcended gender for centuries, (think Hypatia, flayed for her trouble), through to our Sally Rides...science is very powerful if your brain hardwiring is science orientated. Despite xx's or xy's.

 

[I like Serena]

Women in hard sciences are so under-represented that it is hard to take seriously the hypothesis of the threatened men. Especially when you argue it through the angle of "the provider". The bulk of the money in those fields go in the pockets of men, not women.

So, Id say you should start looking for another hypothesis.

So why would a man make a nasty remark to a woman, saying for instance that her place is in the kitchen? Or that there is no future for her in a technical science?
It is just plain rude and there is no basis for it, so why say it?