Where Can I find the Einstein vs. Bohr Full Debates

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the search for original documents and transcripts of the debates between Einstein and Bohr, particularly focusing on their informal discussions and the historical significance of these exchanges. Participants express frustration over the lack of accessible primary sources and explore the nature of the debates, including their context and documentation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Historical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note the difficulty in finding actual manuscripts or recordings of the Einstein-Bohr debates, suggesting that they may not have been recorded word for word.
  • Others propose that the discussions were informal and likely not considered historically important at the time, leading to a lack of written records.
  • Several participants mention that letters and diary entries may be the only surviving documents from their interactions.
  • Links to articles and books are shared as potential resources for further research on the topic.
  • Some participants discuss the nature of the debates as a back-and-forth exchange, with Einstein challenging quantum mechanics and Bohr defending it, but there is no consensus on the specifics of their arguments.
  • There are references to the Solvay conferences as a context for their discussions, with some suggesting that summaries of the discussions may exist in published proceedings.
  • Participants express differing views on the implications of General Relativity in relation to quantum mechanics, with some arguing it is not necessary to refute Einstein's arguments, while others suggest it may be relevant.
  • There is a mention of a conjecture in the string-theory community regarding the relationship between quantum entanglement and gravity, leading to further questions about the nature of gravity in that context.
  • Questions arise about the language used during the Solvay conferences, with some suggesting it may have been French, while others speculate on the languages spoken by Einstein and Bohr during their private discussions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that original recordings or transcripts of the debates are unlikely to exist, but there are multiple competing views regarding the nature of the discussions and the relevance of General Relativity to the arguments presented. The discussion remains unresolved on several points, particularly regarding the implications of their debates and the specifics of the Solvay conferences.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential absence of recorded materials, the informal nature of the discussions, and the reliance on secondary sources for understanding the debates. There are also unresolved questions about the languages used during the Solvay conferences.

learis
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I've tried every way google searching to find the actual einstein bohr debates. But it's basically just commentary and summaries on them.

I want to actually read the debates word for word, as well as any other dialogue the two had between them that was made public. Does anyone have any sources?
 
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This task is proving to be exceedingly difficult as I delve into it. I expected to find manuscripts of such events or letters between them, but was disappointed to not be able to find anything.

We need a bigger workforce to find these debates in original script form. I suspect that the debates were not recorded word for word or even in English for that matter.
 
You mean they weren't posted on YouTube? Unbelievable! Did you try looking for the GoPro recording?
 
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phyzguy said:
You mean they weren't posted on YouTube? Unbelievable! Did you try looking for the GoPro recording?
Come on, wise guy. Have you found any actual manuscripts or real documentation and quotings from the debates?
 
lekh2003 said:
Come on, wise guy. Have you found any actual manuscripts or real documentation and quotings from the debates?

AFAIK the "debates" mainly refers to discussions between them when they met in person; i.e they were informal discussions (albeit with other people in the room).
I don't think it occurred to anyone at the time that they would turn out to be historically important.
Hence, the only written records from the time will be letters. diary entries etc.
 
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fresh_42 said:
I was thinking about the Solvay conferences, myself. I remember reading somewhere a long time ago (maybe in one of George Gamow's popular-level books) about how Bohr presented a problem at one of those conferences one day, and Einstein came back the next day with a solution. The conferences weren't literally recorded as far as I know, but I think transcribers or reporters prepared summaries of the discussions which were published in the conference proceedings.
 
lekh2003 said:
Come on, wise guy. Have you found any actual manuscripts or real documentation and quotings from the debates?

Apologies for my sarcasm. I was trying to make the point that, since modern recording devices didn't exist, I doubt that there is any transcript of the discussions. It was just a bunch of guys sitting around in a room talking.
 
  • #10
As far as I know, this was a kind of ping-pong-like game between Einstein and Bohr. Einstein day after day represented some way to avoid the uncertainty principle, proving the probabilistic nature of the natural laws on the microscopic level wrong. Over night Bohr was struggling to refute the criticism and everyday succeeded. At one occasion, he used Einstein's general relativity as an argument against one of Einstein's gedanken experiments. There's a letter by Ehrenfest in the collected works of Bohr, where you can read how stimulating this was for all the attendees of this conference, watching the two giants of their science arguing against each other.
 
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  • #11
vanhees71 said:
As far as I know, this was a kind of ping-pong-like game between Einstein and Bohr. Einstein day after day represented some way to avoid the uncertainty principle, proving the probabilistic nature of the natural laws on the microscopic level wrong. Over night Bohr was struggling to refute the criticism and everyday succeeded. At one occasion, he used Einstein's general relativity as an argument against one of Einstein's gedanken experiments. There's a letter by Ehrenfest in the collected works of Bohr, where you can read how stimulating this was for all the attendees of this conference, watching the two giants of their science arguing against each other.

If it's really the case that General Relativity is needed to refute one of Einstein's arguments against quantum mechanics, then that's pretty amazing. It would seem to mean that General Relativity (or something like it) is implied by quantum mechanics.
 
  • #12
stevendaryl said:
If it's really the case that General Relativity is needed to refute one of Einstein's arguments against quantum mechanics, then that's pretty amazing. It would seem to mean that General Relativity (or something like it) is implied by quantum mechanics.
I have shown that general relativity is in fact not needed to refute the Einstein's argument against QM:
https://arxiv.org/abs/1203.1139
 
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  • #13
stevendaryl said:
If it's really the case that General Relativity is needed to refute one of Einstein's arguments against quantum mechanics, then that's pretty amazing. It would seem to mean that General Relativity (or something like it) is implied by quantum mechanics.
I think in this case (the example with the box that's drawn exceptionally realistic with all the bolts) it is only the equivalence principle that is used. Bohr does not even mention the field equations.
 
  • #14
martinbn said:
I think in this case (the example with the box that's drawn exceptionally realistic with all the bolts) it is only the equivalence principle that is used. Bohr does not even mention the field equations.
Yes, but my paper still shows that not even the equivalence principle is needed to correctly resolve the Einstein's photon-in-the-box paradox.
 
  • #15
Demystifier said:
Yes, but my paper still shows that not even the equivalence principle is needed to correctly resolve the Einstein's photon-in-the-box paradox.
Even better. GR shouldn't be implied in any way or form from QM. :wink:
 
  • #16
martinbn said:
Even better. GR shouldn't be implied in any way or form from QM. :wink:
I agree. But still, there is a currently popular conjecture in the string-theory community that quantum entanglement and gravity are equivalent.
 
  • #17
Demystifier said:
I agree. But still, there is a currently popular conjecture in the string-theory community that quantum entanglement and gravity are equivalent.
Is the gravity in that conjecture GR?
 
  • #18
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  • #19
Just for the record, were the lectures/talks from the Solvay conferences from those years '25 to '35 held in English or in German? (Pretty sure Dirac knew German).
 
  • #20
dextercioby said:
Just for the record, were the lectures/talks from the Solvay conferences from those years '25 to '35 held in English or in German? (Pretty sure Dirac knew German).

Interesting question. The conference titles give on this Wikipedia site are in French. Since the conference was in Belgium, maybe the talks were in French.
 
  • #21
I've also found French titles from another source. As the rest of the page is in German, I suspect that the conference language was indeed French, for otherwise the titles wouldn't have been quoted in French. However, a complete different question is, whether Bohr and Einstein used it for their more or less private game. Bohr had been in UK quite some time and also visited Germany on various occasions, so he might have been spoken those languages, too##^*). ## I've even found video material from 1927 on youtube, however, to distinguish languages by lip reading is more than I'm capable of.

##^*)## I have found letters between Bohr and Pauli, which were written in German. They had no reference for a translation, so either they wrote it in German or their secretaries did. At least it indicates, that they might have had their debates in German, despite the fact of a French conference language.
 
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  • #22
I remember reading in one of Gamow's books that Bohr spoke German well, although with "Danishisms." So I would expect any personal conversations between him and Einstein to have been in German.
 
  • #23
jtbell said:
I remember reading in one of Gamow's books that Bohr spoke German well, although with "Danishisms." So I would expect any personal conversations between him and Einstein to have been in German.

Maybe in "30 years that shook physics?"
 
  • #24
dextercioby said:
Maybe in "30 years that shook physics?"
Yes, that's it! While you were posting, I was rummaging through my closet looking for it. When I retired and cleaned out my office, I didn't have enough space on my bookshelves at home, so most of my physics books ended up on the floor of the closet. I really need to re-organize things here.

Anyway, that comment is in a footnote to a translation of the Faust parody which was performed by some of Bohr's students at his institute in 1932, in which the Faust characters "map" onto various physics people and concepts: the Lord = Bohr, Mephistopheles = Pauli, Faust = Ehrenfest, Gretchen = the neutrino... and the Auerbach Keller = Mrs. Ann Arbor's speakeasy!
 
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  • #25
phyzguy said:
Interesting question. The conference titles give on this Wikipedia site are in French. Since the conference was in Belgium, maybe the talks were in French.

The reports are in French

The first Solvay Conference "Radiation Theory and the Quanta" report is in French.
The second Solvay Conference "The Structure of Matter" report is in French
...

Find from this book :

THE SOLVAY CONFERENCES ON PHYSICS
Aspects of the Development of Physics since 1911
Radiation Theory and the Quanta*
* La Théorie du Rayonnement et les Quanta, Rapports et Discussions de la Réunion tenue à Bruxelles, du 30 Octobre au 3 Novembre 1911, Publiés par MM. P. Langevin et M. de Broglie, Gauthier-Villars, Paris, 1912.

The Structure of Matter*
* La Structure de la Matière, Rapports et Discussions du Conseil de Physique tenu a Bruxelles du
27 au 31 Octobre 1913, Gauthier-Villars, Paris, 1921.

...

Best regards
Patrick
 
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