Where Does the Second Term in the Pressure Equation for an Ideal Gas Come From?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the second term in the pressure equation for an ideal gas, specifically in the context of statistical mechanics and molecular dynamics. Participants explore the implications of particle interactions on pressure calculations, contrasting ideal gas behavior with non-ideal scenarios.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the origin of the second term in the pressure equation, noting that traditional ideal gas law is P=NkT/V.
  • Another participant asserts that in an ideal gas, the force between particles is zero, which raises questions about the relevance of the second term.
  • Some participants suggest that the second term may relate to interactions between particles and could represent a correction to the ideal gas law.
  • There is a discussion about whether the term involves simple multiplication or a dot product of vectors, with assumptions leaning towards the latter.
  • One participant proposes that the second term could be derived from empirical models like the Lennard-Jones potential, while others seek clarification on its theoretical derivation.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the equation presented does not seem familiar and expresses a desire for further investigation.
  • A later reply acknowledges the second term as a correction for interactions in non-ideal gases, indicating a shift from ideal gas assumptions.
  • One participant mentions their focus on preparing for a PhD examination, indicating a practical approach to understanding the topic without delving into full derivations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the second term is related to interactions between particles, distinguishing it from ideal gas behavior. However, there is no consensus on the exact derivation or implications of this term, and multiple competing views remain regarding its theoretical basis.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of clarity on the assumptions underlying the second term, the dependence on definitions of pressure and interactions, and unresolved questions about the mathematical treatment of the forces involved.

DanSandberg
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The following is a direct quote from Cramer's Essentials of Computational Chemistry:

Assuming ideal gas statistical mechanics and pairwise additive forces, pressure P can be computed as

P(t)=\frac{1}{V(t)}N(kb)(T(t))+(1/3)\sum\sumFF f(ij)r(ij)

My question is: I've always been taught P=NkT/V, where does the second term derive from?

EDIT: The double summation in the second term is supposed to be F(ij)r(ij) where F is the force between particles i and j and r is the distance. N is the number of particles, kb is boltzmann, T is temperature, V is volume.
 
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DanSandberg said:
My question is: I've always been taught P=NkT/V, where does the second term derive from?

EDIT: The double summation in the second term is supposed to be F(ij)r(ij) where F is the force between particles i and j and r is the distance. N is the number of particles, kb is boltzmann, T is temperature, V is volume.

In an ideal gas, F=0, does it not?

(Also, is that supposed to be simple multiplication inside the summation, or the dot product of two vectors?)
 
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I mean the following seriously, not sarcastic or anything: Is your question really a question or a statement. The "net" force within a confined system has to be 0, I suppose, or a jar filled with an "ideal gas" would fall over due to a net force in one direction. However, that would be due to collisions between particles and the container wall. The second term here seems to indicate that these are forces between particles, inside the container.

Additional research is making me think that "pressure" as it relates to molecular dynamics, is actually "stress" within a system. Could this be the answer?

As for the dot product, Cramer does not specify it is a dot product but I would assume it is. Obviously it needs to be a scalar quantity and usually when two vectors are "multiplied" to be a scalar it is a dot product. So I think Cramer wanted us to assume dot product.
 
An ideal gas is defined to have no interactions between particles. That's how relations like P=NkT/V are derived. Interactions will change these relations from their ideal gas values.
 
the_house said:
An ideal gas is defined to have no interactions between particles. That's how relations like P=NkT/V are derived. Interactions will change these relations from their ideal gas values.

Yahtzee. Agreed the second term MUST come from the fact that we have a set of interacting particles versus non-interacting. But where do we get the second term from? Is this some empirical lennard-jones treatment? Or can it be derived a priori, as they say. You know what I mean?
 
Sorry, that's all I can say at the moment. The equation doesn't look familiar at a glance and I have no time to investigate or think about it further (I really should be getting work done right now). Hopefully someone else can help.
 
As the_house says, that's the pressure of a non-ideal gas. An ideal gas has no interactions between the particles.

So all he's doing there is adding a generic interaction term in the form f(ij)r(ij) there. Could be an L-J potential, could be any potential really.
If you skip forward, can you see where he's going with this? I have a colleague with the book, I can check tomorrow otherwise.
 
Guys thank you both immensely. Alxm - Cramer goes on to ensembles for molecular dynamics and thermostat and barostat algorithms. Although I have an eternal thirst for knowledge, I'm primarily focused on passing my oral general examination for my PhD at the moment. So I am preparing for questions related to that. I think it will suffice to say without derivation, the second term is a correction to the ideal gas law to address interactions between particles and if pressed ill have to say i'll get back to them... can't know everything, right? But I can re-read 8 years worth of textbooks in a week :-)
 

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