Where's my mistake? (Pendulum with gravity)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the dynamics of a pendulum under the influence of gravity, focusing on the mathematical modeling of the system. Participants explore the relationships between angular displacement, tension, and gravitational forces, while attempting to identify mistakes in the derivations presented.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a series of equations relating to the motion of a pendulum, including expressions for position, velocity, and acceleration.
  • Another participant suggests checking the units of the expressions to identify potential errors.
  • A participant acknowledges a mistake regarding the squaring of the denominator in their calculations.
  • There is a mention of confusion regarding the centripetal force, with a participant clarifying that tension should not be solely considered as the centripetal force.
  • Several participants express feelings of embarrassment over their mistakes but also highlight the importance of learning from errors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the importance of verifying calculations and learning from mistakes. However, there is no consensus on the correctness of the initial equations or the specific errors identified, as some participants have acknowledged mistakes while others have not fully resolved the mathematical issues presented.

Contextual Notes

Some expressions may depend on specific assumptions about the pendulum's motion, and there are unresolved mathematical steps that could affect the validity of the conclusions drawn.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and enthusiasts of physics and mathematics who are interested in the dynamics of pendulum systems and the common pitfalls in mathematical modeling.

Efeguleroglu
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I have a pendulum and an object with radius "R" and mass "m". There are forces: constant gravitational acceleration and tension on the rope. I can write:
$$x=R sin(\theta) \ \ y=R cos(\theta)$$
$$\dot{x}=R\dot{\theta}cos(\theta) \ \ \dot{y}=-R\dot{\theta}sin(\theta)$$
$$\ddot{x}=R\ddot{\theta}cos(\theta)-R{\dot{\theta}}^{2}sin(\theta)\ \ \ (1)$$
$$\ddot{y}=-R\ddot{\theta}sin(\theta)-R{\dot{\theta}}^{2}cos(\theta)\ \ \ (2)$$
$$a=\frac{T}{m}=\frac{{\dot{x}}^{2}+{\dot{y}}^{2}}{R}={\dot{\theta}}^{2}R\ \ \ (3)$$
$$R\ddot{\theta}cos(\theta)-R{\dot{\theta}}^{2}sin(\theta)=\frac{T}{m}sin(\theta)={\dot{\theta}}^{2}Rsin(\theta)$$
Combine (1) and (3).
$$\ddot{\theta}cos(\theta)-{\dot{\theta}}^{2}sin(\theta)={\dot{\theta}}^{2}sin(\theta)$$
$$tan(\theta)=\frac{\ddot{\theta}}{2{\dot{\theta}}^{2}}\ \ \ (4)$$
Combine (2) and (3).
$$-R\ddot{\theta}sin(\theta)-R{\dot{\theta}}^{2}cos(\theta)=\frac{T}{m}cos(\theta)-g=R{\dot{\theta}}^{2}cos(\theta)-g$$
Find tan(θ) and equate to (4).
$$tan(\theta)=-\frac{2{\dot{\theta}}^{2}}{\ddot{\theta}}+\frac{g}{cos(\theta)R\ddot{\theta}}=\frac{\ddot{\theta}}{2{\dot{\theta}}^{2}}\ \ \ (5)$$
$$cos(\theta)=\frac{2{\dot{\theta}}^{2}g}{R({\ddot{\theta}}^{2}+4{\dot{\theta}}^{4})}\ \ \ and\ \ \ y=\frac{2{\dot{\theta}}^{2}g}{({\ddot{\theta}}^{2}+4{\dot{\theta}}^{4})}\ \ \ (6)$$
From (4).
$$cot(\theta)=\frac{2{\dot{\theta}}^{2}}{\ddot{\theta}}\ \ \ (7)$$
Combine (2) and (3).
$$-R\ddot{\theta}sin(\theta)-R{\dot{\theta}}^{2}cos(\theta)=\frac{T}{m}cos(\theta)-g=R{\dot{\theta}}^{2}cos(\theta)-g$$
Find cot(θ) and equate to (7).
$$cot(\theta)=\frac{g}{2sin(\theta){\dot{\theta}}^{2}{R}}-\frac{\ddot{\theta}}{2{\dot{\theta}}^{2}}=\frac{2{\dot{\theta}}^{2}}{\ddot{\theta}}\ \ \ (8)$$
$$sin(\theta)=\frac{\ddot{\theta}g}{(4{\dot{\theta}}^{4}+{\ddot{\theta}}^{2})R}\ \ \ and \ \ \ x=\frac{\ddot{\theta}g}{(4{\dot{\theta}}^{4}+{\ddot{\theta}}^{2})}\ \ \ (9)$$
So from (6) and (9).
$$x^{2}+y^{2}=g^{2}$$
But that doesn't make sense. There must be a mistake. How does
$$g=R$$
have to be hold?
 
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Check the units of each expression you have written and you will find your error where they do not match. Do this always. I am terrible at Algebra.
 
That's too embarassing. I forgot to square the denominator. Forgive me for wasting your time :(
 
Efeguleroglu said:
That's too embarassing. I forgot to square the denominator. Forgive me for wasting your time :(
Efeguleroglu said:
That's too embarassing. I forgot to square the denominator. Forgive me for wasting your time :(
Not a waste if you develop good habits! Glad I could help.
 
How will I delete this thread?
 
Efeguleroglu said:
How will I delete this thread?

it's left there ... some one else may learn from it :smile:
 
I wrote
$$a_c=\frac{T}{m}$$
But it must be equal to
$$a_c=\frac{T+mgcos(\theta)}{m}$$
Actually I mistakenly used T as the centripetal force. It can easily be replaced. I just wanted to fix that.
 
Efeguleroglu said:
That's too embarassing. I forgot to square the denominator. Forgive me for wasting your time :(
Hi, @Efeguleroglu, I haven't checked the math, but I just want to say that "to err is human." I've done plenty of mistakes during the years, and I still do, though I hope the frequency has been reduced :smile:. And errors and failures are excellent learning opportunities!
 
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