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Van der Waals

Redlich-Kwong

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Can someone point me in the right direction in regards to which model should be best in predicting behavior of N2 and dry air at 200-300 bar around -10 deg to 30 deg celsius?

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In summary, the conversation discusses the best model to use for predicting the behavior of N2 and dry air at high pressures (200-300 bar) and temperatures (-10 to 30 degrees Celsius). Compressibility factor/corresponding states approach is recommended as the most accurate option. However, there is a question about how to calculate the new pressure state with an adiabatic process, and it is suggested to use iterative methods or plot the equations to find the intersection point. The use of the polytropic exponent is not valid for adiabatic processes and it is necessary to determine the changes in thermodynamic functions using integrations and graphs.

- #1

- 7

- 0

Van der Waals

Redlich-Kwong

Virial

Bender

Can someone point me in the right direction in regards to which model should be best in predicting behavior of N2 and dry air at 200-300 bar around -10 deg to 30 deg celsius?

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Science Advisor

Homework Helper

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Chet

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Bystander said:

Sorry about not being specific enough. I want to know the pressure after a certain change of volume with no exchange of heat with the environment i.e an adiabatic process. The gas is in a cylinder doing work on a piston.

Chestermiller said:

Chet

Good suggestion since the compressibility factor is a empirically derived factor isn't it? At least I think it is for the z factor curves I got from this site http://www.bnl.gov/magnets/staff/gupta/cryogenic-data-handbook/Section6.pdf , see the compressibility factor Z vs pressure for nitrogen below.

Can you see if I am using the compressibility factor correctly in the example I describe below?

Say I have initial states P1=250 bar and arbritrary V1. I want to find P2 when V1 has decreased to V2.

First I find the compressibility factor at 250 bar, Z1, which is ~1.1 (for 300 K)

Now I think I need to take a guess at what the pressure P2 will be at after compressing the volume from V1 to V2 in order to know the comp. factor Z2 at this new pressure.

This is where I get a bit stuck.

I cannot calculate: V1*P1 / Z1 = V2 * P2 / Z2 - > P2 = V1 * P1 / Z1 / V2 * Z2

without knowing what Z2 is, and to know Z2 I already need to know the new pressure P2.

So how should one calculate P2?

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Basically, you have two non-linear equations in 2 unknowns, P2 and Z2. One method is to plot both equations on the same graph and see where they intersect. Another method is to solve them iteratively, using successive substitution. Guess a value of Z2 (say 1), and calculate the value of P2. Look up the value of P2 on the graph, and get a new estimate of Z2. Continue this iterative procedure until the values of P2 and Z2 no longer change from one iteration to the next.

Chet

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Sorry for the misplaced question. I will remember to post them where they belong, which in this case would have been the mathematics section. I should probably read the guidelines for posting as I am new.Chestermiller said:

Basically, you have two non-linear equations in 2 unknowns, P2 and Z2. One method is to plot both equations on the same graph and see where they intersect. Another method is to solve them iteratively, using successive substitution. Guess a value of Z2 (say 1), and calculate the value of P2. Look up the value of P2 on the graph, and get a new estimate of Z2. Continue this iterative procedure until the values of P2 and Z2 no longer change from one iteration to the next.

Chet

Many thanks for answering the question despite it belonging somewhere else! I'll have a go at solving it using both methods. Also, since using the compressibility factor is the most accurate, then this can be used to check the accuracy of the other models. I'll have a go at that as well.

Oh yes, one more thing. I said I wanted to find the new pressure state with an adiabatic process, but I calculated assuming an isothermic change. When considering an adiabatic process does the use of the polytropic exponent still hold when using the compressibility factor?

I.e. is this valid? :

P1 * V1 ^ n / Z1 = P2 * V2 ^n / Z2 , where the polytropic exponent n = 1.4

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No. You need to find out how to determine the changes in the thermodynamic functions such as enthalpy and entropy when the pressure is in the non-ideal gas region. It involves integrations involving the compressibility factor, and graphs similar to the z chart are available in most thermo books and engineering handbooks to make things easy for you.peterg07 said:Sorry for the misplaced question. I will remember to post them where they belong, which in this case would have been the mathematics section. I should probably read the guidelines for posting as I am new.

Many thanks for answering the question despite it belonging somewhere else! I'll have a go at solving it using both methods. Also, since using the compressibility factor is the most accurate, then this can be used to check the accuracy of the other models. I'll have a go at that as well.

Oh yes, one more thing. I said I wanted to find the new pressure state with an adiabatic process, but I calculated assuming an isothermic change. When considering an adiabatic process does the use of the polytropic exponent still hold when using the compressibility factor?

I.e. is this valid? :

P1 * V1 ^ n / Z1 = P2 * V2 ^n / Z2 , where the polytropic exponent n = 1.4

Chet

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I really appreciate the pointers you've given. Thanks for your time. I've got some studying to do on this.Chestermiller said:No. You need to find out how to determine the changes in the thermodynamic functions such as enthalpy and entropy when the pressure is in the non-ideal gas region. It involves integrations involving the compressibility factor, and graphs similar to the z chart are available in most thermo books and engineering handbooks to make things easy for you.

Chet

The best way to determine which gas model to use is to first identify the purpose for which you need the model. Different gas models are used for different purposes, such as calculating thermodynamic properties, predicting gas behavior under different conditions, or modeling gas flows. Once you know your purpose, you can then look for a model that is specifically designed for that purpose and is applicable to dry air and N2 at 300 bar.

The main differences between gas models for dry air and N2 at 300 bar are the assumptions and equations used to describe the behavior of the gases. Some models may assume ideal gas behavior, while others may take into account real gas effects such as intermolecular forces. It is important to carefully evaluate the assumptions and limitations of each model before selecting one to use.

Yes, there are several widely accepted gas models that have been extensively tested and validated for dry air and N2 at 300 bar. These include the Ideal Gas Law, Van der Waals equation, and Peng-Robinson equation of state. However, the most appropriate model to use will depend on your specific application and the accuracy required.

The accuracy of a gas model for a specific application can be evaluated by comparing its predictions to experimental data or results from other validated models. It is also important to consider the range of conditions for which the model has been tested and if it accounts for any specific factors or phenomena that may be relevant to your application.

No, it is not recommended to use a single gas model for all calculations involving dry air and N2 at 300 bar. Each model has its own set of assumptions and limitations, and using the wrong model for a specific calculation can lead to inaccurate results. It is important to carefully select the appropriate model for each individual calculation based on its purpose and the specific conditions involved.

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