Who Prefers Firefox and Who Prefers IE?

[Smurf]

In my opinion the EI pop-up blocker is just fine.

 

[Smurf]

but that's not to say that Firefox hasn't improved on it, we should all support freeware software like Firefox and open office.

 

[Monique]

Why should we support freeware?

 

[mattmns]

I guess because it is free. I am not sure if you like to throw away money Monique, but some people, like myself, are poor college students, and do not want to spend $200 on microsoft office, when open office works quite well.

And firefox's adblocking and popup blocking is a billion times better than IE's

 

[dduardo]

Open Source != Freeware

The reason I think people should use open source software is simple: Control.

Consumer Senerio: Let's say you recorded video of your wedding day and encoded it into microsoft's propertary format wmv because that's the only thing Window's Movie Maker supports for export. Now suppose 15 years down the road you want to show your childern your wedding day video, but Microsoft Windows 2020 no longer supports wmv. What do you now?

Business Senario: You own Company A and your whole business depends on proprietary software from company B. Now what happens if company B closes shop and your license expires? What do you do now? Say there are bugs in the software, who supports you? What if all your documents are encoded in company B's propietary format which you cannot convert to another format? Do you now spend millions upon millions of dollars changing software and redoing everything for the past 5 years?

--------

Microsoft knows that most people are not developers and uses that as leverage to control the market. By writing incompatible code they force other developers to write incompatible code. Firefox renders webpages by the standard set by W3C. IE on the other hand renders by Microsoft's standard. Any web developer will tell you that IE is the bane of their existence. I strongly believe the web would be a much better place if microsoft hadn't used their desktop dominance to set their own standards.

 

[ShawnD]

My responses are in bold

How is alt+tab in IE faster than ctrl+tab in FX?

alt+tab is a standard command that is used frequently throughout the day. ctrl+tab is a command that is only in firefox. It's like comparing the time it takes to type "the" compared to "qzd".

Adblocking is included in sp2? I would think that would be against the law for MS to do that? Could you post a screenshot of your IE in a google search please [search for "new car" ].

She's right, it is included with SP2. It actually works very well.

Well, some people, like myself, like options, and love mouse gestures.

I play with the mouse the way Moonbear does

I have never had that scroll bar issue, mine seems to be on the edge.

I've only had a problem with the scrollbar when new windows are opened not-maximized and sort of off-screen

My Fx opens new windows maximized every time.

See above

Could you post a screenshot of this please, or tell me what site this is happening on? I do not really understand what you are talking about here.

I think she means the way it builds all the components separately. It will start loading frame A then it will load frame B's pictures that are not in frame A, then build a table and move it, etc. It sort of looks like a kid moving everything around.

I personally use Opera. I was told that FF was so amazing and that I need to try it. I was very disappointed because I needed no fewer than 5 plugins to have some of the functions I like in Opera, and even then it fell behind.

1. The back button doesn't work good.
In opera, the previous page loads immediately when you click the back button, even if the server has stopped responding. This means that for those rare times when the the server craps out when I try to post something, I can click the back button, copy everything I wrote, then save it in a txt file so I can post it again when the server is back up. For FF and IE, both programs will try to communicate with the server to see the previous page, even when pages are cached. If the server is dead, clicking the back button will give you an error that basically says "this page cannot be displayed". Everything I wrote for the post that wasn't accepted is gone forever, and I need to type the whole thing out again if I want it posted later. That's just absolute BS. A few times I configured FF to cache properly to prevent the lost data problem, but pages still took a long time to load when hitting the back button. FF looks like it tries to load the pictures from the server rather than the cache; they appear one at a time as if I've never seen the page before.

2. Stalled downloads cannot be resumed.
Anybody with eMule and a router knows how UDP flooding can totally screw up your HTTP downloads. In Download Accelerator Plus, clicking resume will not resume the download; clicking "force" will resume the download. In Opera, you click "stop" then "resume" to resume the download. In FF, clicking resume does nothing, clicking pause then resume does nothing. A FF download frozen by UDP flooding is totally fudged, and you need to restart the download from scratch.

3. FF doesn't show the url of a files downloaded.
It has happened several times where I have downloaded a huge file then several days later wanted to send that file to a friend. Opera's transfer window shows quite a bit of data about the download, including the url. FF doesn't say anything about the url. It just shows how much of the file is completed; nothing more.

4. Things opens in new windows by default.
Opera automatically opens everything in a tab, so I can easily keep all pages in 1 window. FF by default requires you to either hold a key when you click a link, or right click and select open in a new tab. There is a FF plugin that fixes this problem, but I really hate searching for plugins.

5. Cache options suck.
FF's cache options are basically "cache yes/no". The yes option still hassles the server to check if the file you have is the same file the server has. This leads to slow loading pages. Opera allows you to set independent options for documents, images, and other. Images basically never change, so why bother the server? Set images to "never" check against the server, and pages load incredibly fast (especially if you have dialup). Other is things like flash and sound, and those never change. Set those to "never" check and the pages load even faster. Documents means text, and it includes PHP pages which are dynamically created, so that is best left to "always" check. You can really adjust the cache options to make Opera do exactly what you want.

6. Option menus are too simple.
FF has an insane amount of options. I believe you get to see them by going to the page "about:config". If there are that many options, why don't they appear when you go to the easy-to-find options screen most people look for? Some of those options are very important, such as the pipelining ones. Adjusting those settings makes FF load pages significantly faster, but for some reason those options do not appear under preferences. Why not? Opera doesn't even have as many options as FF, but you can see all of them in preferences, including the options for pipelining and maximum number of connections.

7. Opera can read text for me.
Sometimes my eyes get tired if I have been reading for too long. With Opera I select the text I want to hear, then hit "v" and it will say all of the text for me. This can be done in FF, but it requires a plugin, and you know I don't like looking for plugins.

8. How do I turn off pictures?
Opera has 3 settings for pictures: show pictures, show cached pictures, show no pictures. Show pictures is just normal. Show cached means it shows the pictures that are cached, but it will not load any new pictures; this is great for dialup users. Show no pictures will remove all pictures; this is great for printing things from the net when I'm interested in the text but not the banners or advertisements. FF doesn't have an option like this.

9. Lack of good right-click options.
Opera has a whole ton of right click options that are just great. For images, I can select "copy image address". This is great for sending picture links to friends; it's a must have for any SA goon. For text there is the option to translate from one language to another. For text there is the option "go to url" which is good for going to URLs that are not set as clickable links. For text there are "dictionary" and "encyclopedia" in case you don't know what a certain word means. For text there is "search with" where you can search one of many sites including google, amazon, google, price comparison, or download.com.



Firefox is seriously over-rated.

 

[mattmns]

I do not have time to read your whole post, right now. However, I want to see a screenshot of Service Pack 2 with IE in action. Please somebody with it take a screenshot of your IE on the website google with a search of "New Car" I will even make it a link http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="new+car"&btnG=Google+Search

I am curious to see the full potential of SP2s adblocking.

You also said that you play with the mouse like MB does. How could you use opera then? Unless I am terribly mistaken, opera has mouse gestures naturally included.

 

[ShawnD]

When I first play with the mouse it asks if I want o keep using mouse stuff. I just say no. I think FF has them off by default.

 

[mattmns]

Fx does not even include mouse gestures, they are an extension. Have you taken a screenshot of IE in a google search for "new car"?

I guess my only other question about mouse gestures would be: do you, or MB, move the mouse while clicking/holding the mouse buttons? I mean, I play with my mouse, and I never notice any issue with mouse gestures, and I use nothing but them.

 

[mattmns]

Ok I read your entire post. I guess it was more pro Opera, than about IE or Fx (not that that was bad or anything). I am actually in the process of trying Opera, actually downloading it right now. Almost everything you listed can be easily done with an extension or editing the about:config, as you said. In my opinion, if you are going to use firefox, then using extensions and about:config is a must. Firefox does not bloat their program with a ton of graphical options or extensions. Many people like a very simple -- straight to the point -- browser.

 

[ShawnD]

Firefox does not bloat their program with a ton of graphical options or extensions. Many people like a very simple -- straight to the point -- browser.

Sort of but not really. Firefox by itself is 4.7mb, and that's just barebones with no extensions. Opera is 3.6mb and that's including a mail client.

Firefox is a great browser, quite a bit better than normal Mozilla, but it still has a ways to go. The main problem with Firefox right now is compatibility between the plugins. Plugins for 1.0.0 and 1.0.1 do not always work for 1.0.2, and that's really frustrating because most of the better plugins are for 1.0.0 and 1.0.1

I did a google search in IE for "new car" and nothing special happened. No popups came up, but IE did not inform me of any blocked popups.

 

[mattmns]

When I said bloated I meant as in features. Firefox does not come with a billion features automatically installed, usually you have to go to the mozilla site and download which ones you want. Also, compare the default Opera look to the default Fx look and it would be hard to say that Opera is not bloated.

By plugins you are talking about extensions right? Every extension I use has worked perfectly with each new release. This is not to say that they all do though. I do agree that some extensions should be automatically included, mainly mouse gestures, but that is just me.

Also, I am talking about ads, not popups. Since nobody wants to accept my offer I will do it myself.

IE: http://img94.echo.cx/img94/754/iegooglenewcar4kw.png

Firefox: http://img151.echo.cx/img151/6606/googlefxnewcar3xd.png

Some of you are probably wondering if this is legal. Supposedly on google it is, I am not sure if it is legal everywhere though, but personally I do not care. If you are interested in how firefox can do such a thing, read this: http://www.scroogle.org/gscrape.html#ffox

 

[ShawnD]

IE: http://img94.echo.cx/img94/754/iegooglenewcar4kw.png

Firefox: http://img151.echo.cx/img151/6606/googlefxnewcar3xd.png

That's interesting.

 

[Monique]

I guess because it is free. I am not sure if you like to throw away money Monique, but some people, like myself, are poor college students, and do not want to spend $200 on microsoft office, when open office works quite well.

Don't you think that it is bad for the economy if we go to a society run by freeware? (especially since it blocks all advertisement) Property being owned by the community, that sounds very communistic to me: a gift or sharing economy.

With my question why we need to support freeware I meant that freeware can not really be supported, since it is free. I guess a way to support it is to develop code for it.

Which brings me to: how can I get the people of Fx to fix their bugs?

 

[dduardo]

I don't agree with mattmns. As I mentioned before I think we should be supporting OPEN SOURCE Software, which does not necessarily mean it is freeware. Its free as in speech, not in beer.

Which brings me to: how can I get the people of Fx to fix their bugs?

Thats the great thing about open source. You don't have to wait for the firefox team to fix bugs. You can modify fiirefox and submit your patches to mozilla. Your code will then go through a review process and if your code is deemed worthy of adding it to the main development branch then they will add it. In the mean time you can run your version of firefox with your patches.

I'm aware that not everyone is a developer, and if that's the case you can submit a bug fix request on mozilla bugzilla.

 

[mattmns]

Bad for the economy? What do you think that people are now going to save the money that they would have spent on software? People spend about 99% of their money in the US [which means they save about 1%] (I am not sure if this is the exact number, but it is at least 95%+ ). If they do not spend it on computer software they will spend it on something else.

I do agree that if everyone used fx and used the adblocking code that it probably would be bad. What would happen in my mind: Ads would either get better, or people would have to start paying more for the internet [or start paying for websites that were free]. This is one of the reasons why I try to not spread firefox too much.

 

[ShawnD]

Monique, open sourced freeware is generally all around "better" in a sense. That goes for pretty much every kind of software I've ever seen.

-Linux vs Windows-
Linux has been stable since maybe around 1991, when it was created. Windows wasn't stable until 2000, 15 years after it was created (1985). Linux still touts having a better file system (it has many systems you can use), better memory management, better process management, better network management, and more secure password management. Windows is what you see. The taskbar at the bottom, the desktop, the user login screen, Windows explorer, control panel; that's all Windows. If anyone of them crashes, you say Windows has crashed, and the computer restarts (or you logout then login if you can). Linux is essentially just a kernel, and everything you see is not Linux. The login screen, the taskbar, the start menu (for lack of a better name), the background, the file manager, network management, printer management, and drivers; they are not Linux. If one of them crashes, it's just that one thing that has crashed, it will not bring anything else down with it, and you can restart whatever crashed since Linux is still able to respond to input.
The only reason we're not all using Linux is because it lacks corperate support (companies are not making software for it).

-IE vs Firefox-
IE 1.0 (Spyglass) first came with Windows 95 Plus Pack, so 1996 is a fair assumption. Windows XP Service Pack 2 was created in 2004. It took 8 years to make IE almost secure? Even now, IE still uses ActiveX which is probably responsible for 90% of spyware. Remember bonzai buddy? That little virus used ActiveX to ask if you wanted to install it, and if you said yes, that spyware was installed on your system and you could never remove it. Same goes for Strip Saver and Comet Cursor. It's all spyware, it all uses ActiveX to install itself, and it's all impossible to remove since things installed through ActiveX generally do not register with Add/Remove programs to allow you to uninstall them. The purpose of ActiveX was to allow for easy updates for viewing sites that used things like Flash or Shockwave (I haven't seen shockwave since 99, what happened to it?). The problem is that companies abused this and started asking users to install their spyware crap under the guise of new drivers or software required for viewing. What has Microsoft done to fix it? Instead of just scrapping this retarded ActiveX idea, they release an anti-spyware kit. That's so stupid that it can't even be put into words. Rather than fix a problem that's as easy as completely turning off ActiveX (which can be done manually in IE options), they release software to fix the problems caused by IE's broken condom style security settings; good job, Microsoft, good job.
Netscape was created in 1994, somewhere along the way it branched off to form Mozilla, then Mozilla branched off to form Firefox. Netscape from the beginning was a pretty solid browser, and it has never had ActiveX support. Mozilla has had popup and banner ad blocking for quite a while now. Firefox's extension system has a lot of potential to it since each extension can be turned on or off whenever you feel like doing so; this is much better than having to install/uninstall things that integrated with IE or Opera. There isn't really much else to say about the Mozilla family.

-Microsoft Office vs Open Office-
If you go to Windows Update after a fresh install of Office XP, you'll find a bunch of security updates for Microsoft Office. The details are rather sketchy as to what the patches fix, but they do note that attackers can use Office to gain access to your system. What in the world? How? Why would Office ever be tied to security problems?
Open Office is pretty good. Key points are the equation editor (great for homework) and the fact that you can export to PDF which is great for sending documents to people. Not everybody has $400 to blow on MS Office (I don't know where you would ever find it for $200), so sending a .doc or .xls file can be as pointless as pissing into the wind if the person you're sending to doesn't have Office. PDF files can be read with PDF Reader which is free, is included with most store-bought software (including games), and comes preinstalled on OEM computers.

-IIS vs Apache- (web servers)
IIS has more security problems than you can possibly imagine. The internet is just swarming with IIS worms, and you can see all of them if you read your Apache access log. Whenever there is a line like "file not found C:/program files/apache/realdocs/../../winnt/system32/rundll32.exe " that's actually a worm trying to work its way into running weird commands on your system through IIS. IIS, like any other MS software, ties itself to the kernel, and that allows unrestricted access to your system if you can get into IIS.
Apache is the software that powers most of the world's HTTP servers. It's fast, has module support, and is very configurable. The only files that Apache itself can write to are the logs (database and file changes can be done using PHP or Perl) and Apache never reads files outside of its folder (PHP and Perl still can). Cracking your way into Apache will at best allow you to see files you are not supposed to see. It will not grant you unrestricted access to the system the way cracking IIS will.


Don't be afraid to call me on any BS in this post, if there is any

 

[Monique]

Monique, open sourced freeware is generally all around "better" in a sense. That goes for pretty much every kind of software I've ever seen.

I agree that microsoft should take a close look at the 'trash in trash out' principle: they keep building on a source that is faulty. The other systems have started from scratch and thus will be better structured.

I looked at BugZilla, and it seems that the bugs that I mentioned have actually been reported.

Bug 173155 When window is expanded to fullscreen, scrollbar isn't flush-right against edge of screen
Bug 210048 new windows opened from fullscreen (F11) window are sized full screen, not maximized
Bug 280127 Address bar dropdown menu does not update by last site visited
Bug 257610 The browser is very slow when resolving/loading a trivial page like google or teoma

 

[mattmns]

After trying Opera for a few hours, I must say it seems quite good! It seems to be quite fast, especially the back/forward thing. I have yet to get all ads blocked, but it seems doable. Also, I do not like the mouse scroll with the wheel button, but that will feel better with time. Other than those two minor things it is so far quite good. Maybe even good enough to consider switching, if I can block ads.