News Why Are Riots Escalating in London?

[cristo]

I don't know how much international press coverage this is getting, but tonight is the third night in a row of rioting in London. It started on Saturday night in a small area of north London after a peaceful protest against a police shooting turned ugly. Each night since then things have got worse and become more and more widespread, with what can only be described as thugs burning police cars, buildings, shops, buses and looting. Parts of the capital now look like a war zone, and the metropolitan police have lost control. The prime minister and other members of the cabinet are even cutting short their holiday to return to the UK to try and sort this mess out.

These scenes are disgusting, and while the original action of a peaceful protest may have been somewhat justified, people are just jumping on the bandwagon and taking advantage of the opportunity to be violent. It's pretty embarrassing, and saddening that this is the mentality of British youth.

Here's a BBC link, though I'm sure there are many other out there: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14450248.

 

[dlgoff]

I've been watching. A protest is one thing but the destruction in pitiful.

I feel for you cristo.

 

[Evo]

We discussed this yesterday in chat.

http://news.yahoo.com/london-rioters-battle-police-shooting-protest-054921704.html

It seems the riot was fueled by social media, people that had no interest in what happened came in from other areas. Looks like a new trend in mobs and riots caused or worsened by social media.

 

[mheslep]

... Parts of the capital now look like a war zone, and the metropolitan police have lost control.

Any comment on why you believe this was allowed to happen by the police?

 

[cristo]

Any comment on why you believe this was allowed to happen by the police?

I don't think they really had a choice. From what I'm seeing on the news the scenes are the same in many areas across the city, and in other cities in the UK. The metropolitan police doesn't have enough officers to cope with such widespread idiocy. I wouldn't be surprised if the army was on the streets tomorrow night.

 

[dlgoff]

This really tells it all when it comes to the police there. They are doing their best.

[URL]http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01356/SNN0908H2G-280_1356933a.jpg[/URL]

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

http://news.yahoo.com/london-rioters-battle-police-shooting-protest-054921704.html

It seems the riot was fueled by social media, people that had no interest in what happened came in from other areas. Looks like a new trend in mobs and riots caused or worsened by social media.

Just want to make a quick comment that in my city of Milwaukee, we've been having problems with youths organizing violent mobs via social media. At our 4th of July fireworks we had a mob destroy a 7-11 and then proceed to beat up 20-30 firework watchers. Also just last week we had a mob of 200 youths causing mayhem at our state fair which sent 30 to the hospital. It's a huge issue here. Social media is rearing it's ugly head.

 

[dlgoff]

Just want to make a quick comment that in my city of Milwaukee, we've been having problems with youths organizing violent mobs via social media. At our 4th of July fireworks we had a mob destroy a 7-11 and then proceed to beat up 20-30 firework watchers. Also just last week we had a mob of 200 hundred youths causing mayhem at our state fair which sent 30 to the hospital. It's a huge issue here. Social media is rearing it's ugly head.

WTF. At least in the '70s there was a reason to protest. What can we do to stop this sort of thing? It's giving the internet a bad name.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Last night I was out celebrating with friends that we had handed in our masters thesis. We went from Hamstead (up market, quiet place) towards Euston (central) to get some food. Along the way all the restaurants and shops had closed up early. We eventually went into a fast food place and in 10 minutes yobs on the street started hurling bottles at the windows, some of which flew through the open door and smashed. They ran off quickly and we decided to call it a night, at that point though I got a call from a friend saying he was in Camden (on my route home) telling me to find another way because people were smashing up shops and running around like crazy.

It's very sad. All day people have been on the news talking about the reasons and the academic politics they think are behind it. Personally I think it's just mob mentality that has spread due to social media. Originally there was a protest that turned violent, that attracted more people and that inspired more riots elsewhere. These are mindless thugs who are only out to steal and fight.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

WTF. At least in the '70s there was a reason to protest. What can we do to stop this sort of thing? It's giving the internet a bad name.

It's becoming a widespread problem. Philly now has problems too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14466369

 

[dlgoff]

It's becoming a widespread problem. Philly now has problems too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14466369

I saw this on TV this morning here. This bothers me, but if that's what it takes, okay?

There have even been legislative efforts to criminalise flash mobs in recent months.

 

[Evo]

I've started a new thread on this disturbing trend.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=520376

 

[Evo]

Look at the destruction caused by the mobs. Horrible.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14461868

 

[Tosh5457]

saddening that this is the mentality of British youth.

These events don't reflect the mentality of British youth. The participants come from poor neighborhoods and are mostly black, which also has an influence.

 

[DaveC426913]

I just hope it's wrapped up in the next two weeks - when I head to London for a week.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

These events don't reflect the mentality of British youth. The participants come from poor neighborhoods and are mostly black, which also has an influence.

Don't even try to suggest that this is racial. The problem here is opportunistic crime caused by mob mentality facilitated by social media, nothing else.

 

[Tosh5457]

Don't even try to suggest that this is racial. The problem here is opportunistic crime caused by mob mentality facilitated by social media, nothing else.

Of course I can't suggest this is racial, race is out of the question in any debate. But there are other reasons too, for example the fact that the suburban culture on poor neighborhoods isn't the best.

 

[DaveC426913]

And what made that start? Of course I can't suggest this is racial, race is out of the question in any debate.

I think you're missing the point.

It may be poor and underprivileged that are rioting - because they may have reason to.

But being black is not reason for rioting. Correlation does not imply causation. The colour of their skin or their heritage does not affect their tendency to riot.

 

[Tosh5457]

I think you're missing the point.

It may be poor and underprivileged that are rioting - because they may have reason to.

But being black is not reason for rioting. Correlation does not imply causation. The colour of their skin or their heritage does not affect their tendency to riot.

I don't think there's any reason that's good enough to do what they're doing, and that argument is a cliche when justifying minorities' actions. Poor education and poverty are important factors of course, but there are also other factors there are overlooked. For example, many portuguese immigrants have mediocre jobs in many countries, and most have poor education, but they're known for not causing any troubles. They'd never do anything like this, even though the poverty levels and education aren't great. The same applies to immigrants from other european countries and asian immigrants. Given the same poverty and education levels, immigrants from Africa cause way more crime.

 

[Astronuc]

WTF. At least in the '70s there was a reason to protest. What can we do to stop this sort of thing? It's giving the internet a bad name.

It's not the internet or social media per se, but the ability to communicate instantaneously, as one could do with cell phones or walkie-talkies, which allow coordinated action. Any group could use the same technology, for different purposes. Folks have a choice to be productive/beneficial or destructive. And we're witnessing destructive behavior facilitated by available technology.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't think there's any reason that's good enough to do what they're doing, and that argument is a cliche when justifying minorities' actions. Poor education and poverty are important factors of course, but there are also other factors there are overlooked. For example, many portuguese immigrants have mediocre jobs in many countries, and most have poor education, but they're known for not causing any troubles. They'd never do anything like this, even though the poverty levels and education aren't great. The same applies to asian immigrants, immigrants from other european countries, and you can see where I'm going...

Agreed. I was not making the claim that poor an underprivileged are actually reasons for the riots, let alone defensible ones, simply pointing out the the inclusion of their colour made even less sense.

 

[JesseC]

Was really impressed by the Turkish community in my area of London, they were out on the streets last night defending the local shops and housing and chasing away any of the mob that got close.

 

[Astronuc]

Any comment on why you believe this was allowed to happen by the police?

I heard from the BBC that the vandals were keeping one step ahead of the police through using cell phones and internet communication. The police were outmaneuvered.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I heard from the BBC that the vandals were keeping one step ahead of the police through using cell phones and internet communication. The police were outmaneuvered.

Whilst this is true mainly they were outmanned. Only 6000 officers for 45,000 999 calls. Tonight there's over 16,000 so things are bound to be easier to control.

 

[Astronuc]

Whilst this is true mainly they were outmanned. Only 6000 officers for 45,000 999 calls. Tonight there's over 16,000 so things are bound to be easier to control.

And it's possible many calls were reporting the same event. They will need a heuristic AI filter perhaps to give a probability that a call is redundant to a given event - based on GPS information or exchange of caller.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

And it's possible many calls were reporting the same event. They will need a heuristic AI filter perhaps to give a probability that a call is redundant to a given event - based on GPS information or exchange of caller.

Indeed but that would never be used. Purely because of the simple fact that it's irrelevant how much police time and lives that saves, the one person that dies because "POLICE COMPUTER REJECTS MURDER VICTIM'S CALL AS 'REDUNDANT'" (headline) will cause a public and political outrage that would remove it and make higher up officer's heads roll.

EDIT: This is the same reason why I think that self-driving cars will face a far harder introduction than people anticipate even if the technology exists. Never underestimate the human capability to misunderstand risk.

 

[JesseC]

David Cameron pledges to be tough on the rioters...

... but do we hear a peep re-opening the youth centres or sorting out the ridiculously high levels of youth unemployment? Nope...

I seriously doubt he or the government or even the opposition will propose any meaningful solution to the sort of social conditions which lend themselves to rioting. I guess we can expect more riots in the future then after these have fizzled out :/

 

[Ryan_m_b]

David Cameron pledges to be tough on the rioters...

... but do we hear a peep re-opening the youth centres or sorting out the ridiculously high levels of youth unemployment? Nope...

I seriously doubt he or the government or even the opposition will propose any meaningful solution to the sort of social conditions which lend themselves to rioting. I guess we can expect more riots in the future then after these have fizzled out :/

The majority of people are not rioting because their youth centre has closed, they are rioting because of mob mentality and opportunistic crime. Thugs throwing bottles, organising gangs to steal plasma TVs and mothers bringing their children looting are not the result of youth program closure.

 

[drankin]

The majority of people are not rioting because their youth centre has closed, they are rioting because of mob mentality and opportunistic crime. Thugs throwing bottles, organising gangs to steal plasma TVs and mothers bringing their children looting are not the result of youth program closure.

The result of not having anything better to do would be my first guess. Unemployment etc.

 

[Tosh5457]

David Cameron pledges to be tough on the rioters...

... but do we hear a peep re-opening the youth centres or sorting out the ridiculously high levels of youth unemployment? Nope...

I seriously doubt he or the government or even the opposition will propose any meaningful solution to the sort of social conditions which lend themselves to rioting. I guess we can expect more riots in the future then after these have fizzled out :/

Deportation would do it, too bad it's easy for immigrants to have the nationality of the country they immigrated to. Immigrants are allowed to immigrate to work. If they're unemployed and causing problems they should be deported -that would also serve as example to others.

 

[JesseC]

The majority of people are not rioting because their youth centre has closed, they are rioting because of mob mentality and opportunistic crime. Thugs throwing bottles, organising gangs to steal plasma TVs and mothers bringing their children looting are not the result of youth program closure.

Of course they are not, I didn't say they were and its not fair on me that you've singled on a few words in my previous post and ignored my point. I simply mention youth centres, because its poignant reminder of the sort of services that have been taken away from these youths just in the last few weeks. The mass rioting we see across the country is not just a result of opportunistic crime and mob mentality or pure criminality or whatever you want to call it either... there are much bigger social and political problems slap bang in the middle of it all.

We can keep on denouncing the rioters forever, and I agree they should be denounced. My worry is that the government will not pay any heed to the social and political problems at the heart of the matter and simply slap the toughest sentences possible on the few looters they manage to catch.

 

[JesseC]

Deportation would do it, too bad it's easy for immigrants to have the nationality of the country they immigrated to. Immigrants are allowed to immigrate to work. If they're unemployed and causing problems they should be deported -that would also serve as example to others.

You're trolling right? Suggesting the rioters are all immigrants. You'll need to do better than that...

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Of course they are not, I didn't say they were and its not fair on me that you've singled on a few words in my previous post and ignored my point. I simply mention youth centres, because its poignant reminder of the sort of services that have been taken away from these youths just in the last few weeks. The mass rioting we see across the country is not just a result of opportunistic crime and mob mentality or pure criminality or whatever you want to call it either... there are much bigger social and political problems slap bang in the middle of it all.

We can keep on denouncing the rioters forever, and I agree they should be denounced. My worry is that the government will not pay any heed to the social and political problems at the heart of the matter and simply slap the toughest sentences possible on the few looters they manage to catch.

I've never suggested that the reasons should'nt be tackled. What I've pointed out is that these aren't the direct result of a specific event, rather a specific event allowed a mass action of crime to occur. Everyone is facing similar social and political problems, it is no excuse to riot as demonstrated by the people of poverty stricken areas who were out on mass with brooms and bins cleaning up their neighbourhood. What I'm worried about is the danger of people trying to explain this away as the governments fault when it is no-one's but the bastards who have caused such harm.

You're trolling right? Suggesting the rioters are all immigrants. You'll need to do better than that...

Check out his posts earlier, I think we have ourselves a daily mail reader.

 

[Tosh5457]

You're trolling right? Suggesting the rioters are all immigrants. You'll need to do better than that...

No I'm not trolling. Most rioters are immigrants, whether they are descendants from immigrants that were already in UK or immigrants that recently arrived. Those who were at the riot and aren't immigrants unfortunately have to be taken care of by their country.

Check out his posts earlier, I think we have ourselves a daily mail reader.

I don't know what daily mail is, and I apologize for having a different ideology from you, I guess... I don't need any newspaper to tell me what to think, I just don't know why I have to be a liberal and support mass immigration to european countries...

 

[Ryan_m_b]

No I'm not trolling. Most rioters are immigrants, whether they are descendants from immigrants that were already in UK or immigrants that recently arrived. Those who were at the riot and aren't immigrants unfortunately have to be taken care of by their country.

I don't know what daily mail is, and I apologize for having a different ideology from you, I guess...

You are not an immigrant if you are descended from immigrants. Please show some sort of reference to back up your claim, the vast majority of people I have seen on the streets around me are clearly British.

Feel free to have a different ideology from me but my respecting your right to an ideology is irrelevant to my opinion regarding your ideology.

 

[Tosh5457]

You are not an immigrant if you are descended from immigrants.

That depends on the country's policies. Descendants of immigrants can be considered immigrants if the law says so.

Please show some sort of reference to back up your claim, the vast majority of people I have seen on the streets around me are clearly British.

I think it's fair to say most on the riot are immigrants (or descendants). And what do you mean by people around you? Are you right in the middle of rioters?

 

[JesseC]

I've never suggested that the reasons should'nt be tackled. What I've pointed out is that these aren't the direct result of a specific event, rather a specific event allowed a mass action of crime to occur.

I agree with you there.

Everyone is facing similar social and political problems...

That I definitely disagree with... the UK is one of the most the most unequal developed countries in the world with some of the lowest rates of social mobility.

I would argue that large groups of people are definitely not experiencing similar social and political problems. Perhaps to some extent more of us are feeling the same economic problems, but those economic problems hit some, particularly the poor and vulnerable, much harder than others.

... it is no excuse to riot as demonstrated by the people of poverty stricken areas who were out on mass with brooms and bins cleaning up their neighbourhood.

I agree with that too, really delightful and proud to see so many helping out. If I hadn't had work, I'd have been down there too.

What I'm worried about is the danger of people trying to explain this away as the governments fault when it is no-one's but the bastards who have caused such harm.

Clearly the instances of violence and crime are the fault of those out on the streets and the question of direct blame is simple, but the indirect blame is never so simple... it is important not to exclude these from any surrounding context. As suggested by some commentators, if we'd all been paying more attention to these impoverished areas of London we might have seen this coming... instead the police and government claimed to have been taken by surprise.

Check out his posts earlier, I think we have ourselves a daily mail reader.

Oh dear... :P

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I think it's fair to say most on the riot are immigrants (or descendants). And what do you mean by people around you? Are you right in the middle of rioters?

Not this second but I live in London and have seen the riots first hand. I fail to see why you think it is fair to say most rioters are immigrants.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I
That I definitely disagree with... the UK is one of the most the most unequal developed countries in the world with some of the lowest rates of social mobility.

I would argue that large groups of people are definitely not experiencing similar social and political problems. Perhaps to some extent more of us are feeling the same economic problems, but those economic problems hit some, particularly the poor and vulnerable, much harder than others.

Glad we agree on most points on this I'm no so sure. Whilst there are obviously large wealth disparities sometimes strangely close ones (try walking from Holloway to Highgate!) many of these communities have seen people in the same poverty stricken conditions out there cleaning up their streets.

I also don't think that poverty is an excuse to do most of the things seen. People stealing TVs, alcohol and burning down buses cannot rely on the excuse of poverty in my opinion.

 

[FeDeX_LaTeX]

My uncle lost his flat because of a fire, and his job too (building where he worked burned down). He has a wife and 3 kids (all younger than 2). From where I live, you just need to walk about 200 metres of so before you see the effects of the riots, and even some active rioters. Somebody posted this;

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205877_2350941572223_1210629852_2964673_7476615_n.jpg

Hoping this will be over soon, I can't go anywhere because the rioting is basically on my doorstep.

 

[JesseC]

Whilst there are obviously large wealth disparities sometimes strangely close ones (try walking from Holloway to Highgate!) many of these communities have seen people in the same poverty stricken conditions out there cleaning up their streets.

I also don't think that poverty is an excuse to do most of the things seen. People stealing TVs, alcohol and burning down buses cannot rely on the excuse of poverty in my opinion.

Haven't heard anyone suggest its an excuse yet!

The important difference is not just wealth, but age. The media are bombarding my eardrums with the fact that all this violence is being committed by the 'youth', 'young yobs' and aside from a few exceptions, this seems to be largely true. Not only that, but youths in poor areas.

Its simply not good enough to denounce them as rats, lock some of them up and forget about them. They are human beings after all! We need to look at issues surrounding the youth in poor areas... worse schools, lack of jobs and high unemployment, surrounded by crime, cutting of benefits and opportunities and a general lack of respect or care about their lives. I'm sure you can see how those sort of conditions would provide the fuel for any spark, say a police shooting, which happened to occur.

Its probably the case that the political and social causes are lost on the rioters and looters themselves, but that doesn't mean it has to be lost on us too.

 

[JesseC]

My uncle lost his flat because of a fire, and his job too (building where he worked burned down). He has a wife and 3 kids (all younger than 2). From where I live, you just need to walk about 200 metres of so before you see the effects of the riots, and even some active rioters. Somebody posted this;

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205877_2350941572223_1210629852_2964673_7476615_n.jpg

Hoping this will be over soon, I can't go anywhere because the rioting is basically on my doorstep.

Really sorry to hear that :(

 

[mheslep]

Dismaying response here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

[BBC]You been drinking all night?

Yeah
It’s the governments fault. Conservatives.

[BBC]You reckon it will go on tonight?

Hopefully

[BBC]...Why is the targeting local people, your own people?

It’s the rich people, the people got businesses. That’s why all of this is happening.

 

[Astronuc]

Have-nots vs haves. Ignoring the fact that those who have, may and probably, did put in the effort to get what they have.

Recently my mom told me of guy who came to the door asking for money. According to her, he disclosed that he was a sports fan who had recently attended a game. So according to that story, the guy blows his money on going to games, and then goes begging in neighborhoods for money - ostensibly because he doesn't have a job, or he doesn't make sufficient money to pay for the livestyle to which he believes he is entitled!

 

[drankin]

The question being posted now by some on the net is, "will rioting begin happening in the US?".

 

[Astronuc]

The question being posted now by some on the net is, "will rioting begin happening in the US?".

Certainly, it could! Remember Summer, 1968. Chicago, Nov. 1968.

LA Riots, 1992 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

Economic hardship, discontent, disillusionment/despair = anger, and often someone else to blame, although in 1968, some of the blame was someone else. Economic hardship, discontent, disillusionment/despair are not excusable for committing violence and mayhem, but rather are common motivators or precursors to such behavior.

 

[FeDeX_LaTeX]

If I recall correctly, earlier today a Belgian MP said somewhere that he thinks the rioting could easily spread to Europe.

 

[JesseC]

Have-nots vs haves. Ignoring the fact that those who have, may and probably, did put in the effort to get what they have.

That fact would matter more if there was a level playing field to begin with. Unfortunately the UK is a country in which some are lucky enough to be born into tremendous wealth (say our Prime Minister or Mayor of London or Chancellor of the Exchequer) whilst others can work hard their entire lives and get nowhere.

But I suppose we diverge from the topic slightly...

 

[Evo]

The question being posted now by some on the net is, "will rioting begin happening in the US?".

The answer is "it already has!". Several examples have already been given, so bad in Philadelphia that curfews are in effect.

Have any of you read the thread? I keep seeing posts which indicate people aren't reading what has been posted.

 

[drankin]

The answer is "it already has!". Several examples have already been given, so bad in Philadelphia that curfews are in effect.

I had heard rumors but I couldn't find any articles. If you have a good link, please post.