Why Do Some Mathematicians Struggle with Basic Math?

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Mathematicians often struggle with basic arithmetic tasks like balancing checkbooks or calculating tips, not due to a lack of ability but because their focus is on abstract concepts rather than simple calculations. This distinction between arithmetic and higher mathematics suggests that while mathematicians may make mistakes in basic math, they are generally more adept at complex mathematical reasoning. The discussion highlights that many mathematicians prioritize understanding the 'why' behind mathematical principles over rote memorization of basic calculations. Additionally, the reliance on calculators in modern education may contribute to a decline in basic arithmetic skills among students. Ultimately, the perception that mathematicians cannot perform simple math is largely a misunderstanding of their expertise and focus.
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I keep hearing about mathematicians not being able to do basic math. I mean, that they have trouble balancing their checkbook, or can't figure out a 15% tip. Is there any reason for this? I'm thinking that it's just too basic for them. Thoughts?
 
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I believe your premise is in error! :-)
 
Balancing checkbooks is more a matter of discipline, and some mathematicians may not possesses that in quantity. But I doubt any mathematician would have difficulty approximating 15 percent of a number in his/her head.
 
Mathematicians are know to make simple mistakes on the blackboard while discussing their work. There is story that comes out of "Racing for the Bomb, General Leslie R. Groves, the Manhattan Projects Indispensable Man."

A General, much to the horror of the scientists, was put in charge of operations. This General antagonized the scientists by telling them that he had learned the calculus on his own. He also claimed that through self-study he had acquired the worth of two PhDs.

In October 1942, General Groves caught an error on the blackboard which came about from failing to correctly copy a figure from one line to the next. Groves then spoke up and told the scientists about it. While Groves might have believed that he was being set-up to look like a fool, he went on with his remark about the calculus and how he ought to have been awarded two PhDs.

After Groves left the room, nuclear scientist Szilard exploded, "See what I told you? How can you work with people like that?"

Szilard is credited with explaining the idea of the chain reaction to Einstein. Goves said of Szilard, "The kind of man that any employer would have fired as a troublemaker."

Groves said that he wanted a noble prize winner to head the civilian end of the operation, because a noble prize winner in physics is the equivalent of a General in the Army. Groves originally wanted all scientists to wear a uniform at work, but Oppenheimer balked and said, “It would result in the loss of scientific autonomy.”
 
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There is a lot of difference between arithmetic and Math. Accounts do arithmetic, mathematicians do math. Balancing a check book is account work, it has little to do with mathematics.
 
figuring out a 15% tip isn't math, it's arithmetic. by about 3rd year of a math degree people are beyond calculating things, and it;s more about abstract concepts and why things work the way they do. It's like Morpheus saying to Neo, "welcome to the real world" :biggrin: Real math (pure math anyway) is much more like philosophy since it's more about concepts than a science or calculuations, I think.
 
Basic maths, real basic maths like solving the root of ax^2 + bx + c = 0 is something that mathematicians remember for a very long time. Unlike other subjects were bits are forgotten a lot of maths is built on knowing more elementary maths and so on and so forth, so knowing bits like is useful the whole way.
 
Integral said:
There is a lot of difference between arithmetic and Math. Accounts do arithmetic, mathematicians do math. Balancing a check book is account work, it has little to do with mathematics.

I like what you said here. At leat now I won't feel so bad when I take five minutes to add or subtract.
 
It's not that mathematicians are more likely to make mistakes, but people who didn't study anything math-related tend to think it's a big deal that a mathematician made such a mistake so it gets noticed more.
 
  • #10
It's not that mathematicians are more likely to make mistakes, but people who didn't study anything math-related tend to think it's a big deal that a mathematician made such a mistake so it gets noticed more.

Yep, I'd go along with this. Just by spending your days doing math does not make you immune to petty mistakes nor does it provide you superb arithmetic skills. Its actually sometimes quite neat how serious math guys solve elementary math problems their "own way".
 
  • #11
I think that is a more powerful tool learn how to do the things, instead of memorize them.

For me, is irrelevant to know the 15% of 75 if I know the math it in case I need it. And instead of 15% I would have said the calculation of a complex integral. Probably I would need a book to remind me how to work out it, but if I learned it in the past, I will be able to do it in the future. I am pretty sure of this.

Brain is not unlimited, and the less important things we remind, the more birthdates we will be able to memorize :)
 
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  • #12
MiGUi said:
Brain is not unlimited, and the less important things we remind, the more birthdates we will be able to memorize :)

Entirely true.

Archimedes was known to forget things like eating and sleeping. Same with Einstein.

Honestly, if God (if he exists :confused: ) said he will give me the power to know everything that is going on right now (including everything in all the journals :bugeye: ), and all I have to do is lose the ability to remember names (including gf's name), I would.

I mean, who wouldn't.

A mathematician chooses to not care about 2+2=4, but chooses to understand why 2+2=4.
 
  • #13
JasonRox said:
A mathematician chooses to not care about 2+2=4, but chooses to understand why 2+2=4.

I like this. :approve:

It must be a generalization about mathematicians that the know and can do everthing mathematically; from simple arithmetic to the most advanced thing out there.
 
  • #14
It does annoy me when people cannot do simple mathematics when it is more or less answered for you in the question.

What is this world coming to?

The Bob (2004 ©)
 
  • #15
The Bob said:
What is this world coming to?

To an IQ of 2+2=3.
 
  • #16
The Bob said:
It does annoy me when people cannot do simple mathematics when it is more or less answered for you in the question.

What kind of questions you mean, Bob?
 
  • #17
I'll have to disagree with the original post. Mathematicians may be reluctant (even abhorrent) to balance checkbooks, but they certainly will calculate a 15% tip better and faster than the average person. However, they may sometime use methods which on a rare occasion may lead to a stumble.

Let me give you an example :

I'm no mathematician, but I like to convert degrees F to degress C {C = (F-32)*5/9} using a bit of a numerical approximation.

I find it faster to calculate the result (to the required extent of) (F-32)[\frac {4.5}{9} + \frac {0.45}{9} + \frac {0.045}{9} +...] than to divide by 9 and multiply by 5. Occasionally (actually, this happended once, and ONLY once), this will cause me to say something like F=59 (so F-32 = 27) implies C is nearly 15...when in fact it is exactly 15.
 
  • #18
Only once of course. ;)
 
  • #19
I don't understand...how do you use that numerical approximation method, and how is it faster? (Especially in your head!)
 
  • #20
Chrono said:
What kind of questions you mean, Bob?
Well there is a simple chemistry question that uses simple mathematics:

The relative atomic mass of antimony is 121.75. Antimony exists as two isotopes, antimony-121 and antimony-123. Calculate the relative abundance of the two isotopes.

Now all you have to do is make an equation to work the relative abundance and use simple algebra to rearrange the equation and get an answer. My class knew how to work the relative abundance when the percentages were given but now that one percentage is missing and they have the relative atomic mass they are stuck. Also they can't handle two negative numbers on either side of the equals sign.

How simple is that question? Really? Only three people in the group got them right. Then there are simple maths question, but if you want them I will post them later.

The Bob (2004 ©)
 
  • #21
The Bob said:
Then there are simple maths question, but if you want them I will post them later.

Sure, though I'm not into chemistry very much.
 
  • #22
Nothing annoys me more than watching people memorizing physics formulas for a test.

Then they get there and have no idea which one to apply if it deviates even slightly from what they've seen.
 
  • #23
Gokul43201 said:
I'll have to disagree with the original post. Mathematicians may be reluctant (even abhorrent) to balance checkbooks, but they certainly will calculate a 15% tip better and faster than the average person. However, they may sometime use methods which on a rare occasion may lead to a stumble.

I realized I can't do that. I remember I tried to do something like, just add $1.50 for every ten dollars on the total balance. I doubt that's hardly better and faster.
 
  • #24
I consider myself a mathematician, since I have a PhD in math. I have always been able to do arithmetic pretty easily, and accurately, and so can all the other mathematicians I know. So I believe those stories about mathematicians not being able to do arithmetic are pretty much false. My wife balances the checkbook, but I could also do it. I might be more accurate, but suffer much more at it. In this task, patience is also a virtue.

Mathematicians make elementary mistakes like everyone else, but in general are far less likely to do so, rather than more likely. E.g. as a young man (less than 50 or 60), I never used a calculator to add up my grades because I could accurately add the scores in my head, faster than I could punch the buttons on the calculator.

Once at church when the calculator seemed to fail, I added up all the collection moneys and checks from all the plates in my head as they read them out, perfectly. The man following along on the adding machine made an error but I did not.

This is no longer true, as I have aged, I have become less quick, but am still much faster and more accurate at arithmetic than my students by and large. Probably this is not because I am a mathematician but rather because I was trained in high school this way as a child, before calculators were introduced. Calculator use is probably the main reason students today cannot calculate.

On the other hand it is true that when a mathematician makes a computational mistake he is usually not lost because he still knows what he is doing, so he does not worry about it so much. For example I assume the people on this site who go on and on about tensors being various kinds of matrices or symbols with indices, are non mathematicians who depend more on calculations for dealing with mathematics, and are not guided by the meaning of the concepts.

I would say a mathematician is someone who tries to understand, and add some unbderstanding to, number theory or geometry, or some such topic. Thus the person who pointed to the difference between whether 2+2=4 and why 2+2 =4 was on the right track, although perhaps not with such trivial examples.

Fermat asked himself which primes p could be expressed as n^2 + m^2 = p? for integers n,m. This is beautiful problem that can appeal to a junior high student, and whose most natural solution uses complex numbers (to show that if the equation above has a solution, then p = (n+mi)(n-mi) would no longer be prime over the complex numbers.)

I am not particularly advanced as mathematicians go, and I have recently been curious as to why the dimension of the space of sections h^0(L) of a line bundle L on a compact Riemann surface X is equal to

1-genus(X) + degree(L) + h^0(K-L), where K is the cotangent bundle of X.

and why generalizations of this to higher dimensional manifolds hold.

Mathematicians are more likely to wonder why that is true than why 2+2 = 4, but they still might remember it wrong as 1-genus(X) + degree(L) - h^0(K-L), for instance.

I was once amused while reading the works of a much stronger mathematician than myself who asserted that no one could be a grownup algebraic geometer until he/she had learned the riemann roch theorem for surfaces, and then proceeded to state it incorrectly.

I am also proud of my recently acquired familiarity with that theorem and why it is true. I have even worked out detailed proofs of it in many important special cases, but I am not sure I can correctly state it either. So it is definitely true I care more why it is true than exactly what the formula says.

For example, the key point of the previous formula for line bundles on "curves" is the fact that the difference h^0(L) - h^0(K-L), although defined in terms of the analytic structure of X, can be expressed merely in terms of the topology of X and K, i.e. as 1-g + degree(L).

Now simply knowing there is such a formula is already something, and then knowing the actual formula is a bit more. (for surfaces i will guess the formula says that h^0(L)+h^0(L) >= (1/2)(L.([L-K]) + (1/12)(K^2 + chi(top)).

but i am not sure and would have to go through the proof to be sure.

the point again is that a certain combination of h^0's on the left equals a number on the right which is purely topological.



In elementary mathematics the more difficult question of whether a problem does or does not have a solution is often ignored, and the explicit solution to a problem which does have one, is merely displayed without comment, to be memorized.

it is more enlightening to ask why one problem has a solution, but another similar one does not. E.g. why are there solution formulas for polynomial equaitons of degrees 1,2,3,4, but none in general for degree 5?

This is a much deeper and more interesting question than merely knowing what is the explicit formula for a 4th degree polynomial. or in calculus, not just what is the integral of this function, but are there any functions which do not have integrals? if so, which ones do have?

Mathematicians are not mindless memorizers, or calculating machines, they are curious scientists.

Still it is likely thay have more than the average skill in the simplest mechanical aspects of their subject. Julia Child probably knew how to break eggs too, even if she declined to do so for Martha Stewart.

peace
 
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  • #25
The Bob said:
Well there is a simple chemistry question that uses simple mathematics:

The relative atomic mass of antimony is 121.75. Antimony exists as two isotopes, antimony-121 and antimony-123. Calculate the relative abundance of the two isotopes...

Oh, yes, I think this is a pretty easy question and I also know how to get the answer by the method required, and that is because I was being forced to do so for thousands of times (of course not that much) in my Chinese high school chemistry... and I guess this might be the reason that I am not good at series and integration...
 
  • #26
by the way my mother in law taught me to figure 15% of a check, just take 10% and then add half more.
 
  • #27
cepheid said:
I don't understand...how do you use that numerical approximation method, and how is it faster? (Especially in your head!)

Everyone has to do the F - 32 bit. Notice that 5/9 = .555... = 0.5 + 0.05 + ...usually, these first two terms are enough to get you close, and the third term will often tell you what the exact number is.

Let me give you an example. F = 64, say (tomorrow's projected high temperature here).

So F-32 = 32. Half of that is 16. A tenth of this is 1.6, and another tenth is 0.16 so that makes C = 16 + ~1.8 = 17.8 or about 18. Even with the first two terms you get 17.6, and it dousn't take ten seconds to do this in your head.

This method works even better for converting from C to F. F = 9C/5 + 32, and 9/5 = 1.8 = 2 - 0.2, so you double C and then take away a tenth of this.
 
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  • #28
JasonRox said:
Only once of course. ;)

Yes, only once...but it was quite embarrassing. I was the only "scientist" among a group of "engineers" - all students really. And they wouldn't stop yanking my chain for the rest of that evening. :frown:
 
  • #29
Gokul43201 said:
Everyone has to do the F - 32 bit. Notice that 5/9 = .555... = 0.5 + 0.05 + ...usually, these first two terms are enough to get you close, and the third term will often tell you what the exact number is.

Let me give you an example. F = 64, say (tomorrow's projected high temperature here).

So F-32 = 32. Half of that is 16. A tenth of this is 1.6, and another tenth is 0.16 so that makes C = 16 + ~1.8 = 17.8 or about 18. Even with the first two terms you get 17.6, and it dousn't take ten seconds to do this in your head.

Also, keeping in mind that all fifths must end in .0, .2, .4, .6, or .8, it's clear that 17.8 is the exact answer.

This method works even better for converting from C to F. F = 9C/5 + 32, and 9/5 = 1.8 = 2 - 0.2, so you double C and then take away a tenth of this.

Thanks for explaining that! Let's see...as fast as I can type then...15 degrees C = 30 - 3 + 32 = 59?
 
  • #30
Ignore this post...I was being stupid.
 
  • #31
ThomasJoe40 said:
Oh, yes, I think this is a pretty easy question and I also know how to get the answer by the method required, and that is because I was being forced to do so for thousands of times (of course not that much) in my Chinese high school chemistry... and I guess this might be the reason that I am not good at series and integration...
I know. You can see this as a Chemistry question if you wish but really it is simple maths with a little chemical know how.

The Bob (2004 ©)
 
  • #32
Chrono said:
Sure, though I'm not into chemistry very much.
Try working the chemistry out. It is really very, very simple. Also I hate it when people cannot do simultaneous equations. They are so simple.

The Bob (2004 ©)
 
  • #33
Honestly when it comes to arithmetic I suck. I never balance my check book. I just go to the atm and look at the balance. I am extremely lazy when it comes to arithmetic, I always use a calculator to add and subtract things, not because I don't want to, but because it is a waste of time doing the same thing over and over again that you already know how to do. As my high school calc teacher always said, "Good mathematicians are notoriously lazy."
 
  • #34
For my arithmetics, I atleast get a good approximation. I'm not a fan of pulling out calculators.
 
  • #35
The Bob said:
Also I hate it when people cannot do simultaneous equations. They are so simple.

Sorry, dude. I can usually solve the not so simple things, and usually have some trouble with the simple stuff. I don't know what it is.
 
  • #36
Chrono said:
Sorry, dude. I can usually solve the not so simple things, and usually have some trouble with the simple stuff. I don't know what it is.
It must seem to easy so you complicate it.

The Bob (2004 ©)
 
  • #37
mathwonk said:
I am not particularly advanced as mathematicians go, and I have recently been curious as to why the dimension of the space of sections h^0(L) of a line bundle L on a compact Riemann surface X is equal to

1-genus(X) + degree(L) + h^0(K-L), where K is the cotangent bundle of X.

and why generalizations of this to higher dimensional manifolds hold.

Mathematicians are more likely to wonder why that is true than why 2+2 = 4, but they still might remember it wrong as 1-genus(X) + degree(L) - h^0(K-L), for instance.
:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:


A tutor guy I know showed me a speedy calculation trick once. Check it out:
17*15 = 255 because 17*15 = (16+1)*(16-1) = 16^2 - 1 = 255. It works the same for any numbers like that.
 
  • #38
The Bob said:
It must seem to easy so you complicate it.

You're exactly right.
 
  • #39
The bottom line is...

We all love math.

We love it so much we study it beyond possible application.

Note: I am a first year student, but I do plan on studying math forever regardless of whether or not the material is useless in someone else's eyes.
 
  • #40
JasonRox said:
The bottom line is...

We all love math.

We love it so much we study it beyond possible application.

Note: I am a first year student, but I do plan on studying math forever regardless of whether or not the material is useless in someone else's eyes.

Sounds good and I also plan on doing the same. By the way, my arithmetic has gotten exponentially better than it was two years ago before Calculus.
 
  • #41
to convert (roughly) from centigrade to fahrenheit my mother in law also taught me to "double it and add 30".

Now isn't that easier than multiplying by 9/5 and adding 32?

and that is a neat trick to multiply toe numbers that differ by two, i.e. (a-1)(a+1) = a^2 -1. it also works for numbers that differ bya ny even number i guess,

(a-k)(a+k) = a^2 - k^2, so 15(19) = (17-2)(17+2) = 289-4 =, 285. cool!

thanks Fourier junior!
 
  • #42
do you think it's necessary to know arithmetic before mathematics?
 
  • #43
sj_iii said:
do you think it's necessary to know arithmetic before mathematics?

Well, of course. That's why they teach it to you first. It'd be real hard to solve equations if you didn't.
 
  • #44
fourier jr said:
:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:


A tutor guy I know showed me a speedy calculation trick once. Check it out:
17*15 = 255 because 17*15 = (16+1)*(16-1) = 16^2 - 1 = 255. It works the same for any numbers like that.

(x-y)(x+y) = x^2 - y^2
so
(x - 1)(x + 1) = x^2 - 1

That's an easy one. I prefer the problems where you break numbers into smaller ones and recombine to make the problem easier.

IE: 66*23 = 11*6*23 = 138*11 = 138 + 1380 = 1518
 
  • #45
I've always been better at solving things in my head than writing it all down on paper, it really gets me in quite a bit of trouble some times. It's just the more steps I have to write the more likely I'll write it down wrong where if it's in my head it is one thing and not all broken up.
 
  • #46
Ba said:
I've always been better at solving things in my head than writing it all down on paper, it really gets me in quite a bit of trouble some times. It's just the more steps I have to write the more likely I'll write it down wrong where if it's in my head it is one thing and not all broken up.
You see, I am the opposite. It needs to worked out in my head but then written down so as to continue or my brain gets too full.

The Bob (2004 ©)
 
  • #47
I work both ways. In my head when I'm lazy, or on paper when I'm tired.
 
  • #48
Paper makes the problems too easy. People are ruining their calculating potential by using paper! :rolleyes:
 
  • #49
Alkatran said:
Paper makes the problems too easy. People are ruining their calculating potential by using paper! :rolleyes:

I always try to do it in my head before I do it on paper.
 
  • #50
I like using my head because during lectures it is easier to follow if you do learn to use your head. People often complain about how hard it is to write notes and keep up at the same time. They forget to realize that you don't have to write the examples down, unless you believe it is a good one and can be useful for studying.

Students were writing down a lame explanation of a vector. That is sad... very sad.
 
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