News Why Does Israel Target Civilian Water Infrastructure?

[humanino]

Can someone explain me why

- Israel would bomb a water well, upon which the survival of innocent lives relies ?
- Israel would forbid plastic remplacement pieces for those wells to cross the borders ? Plastic cannot be melt to built weapons.

As the days, the weeks, and the years go along, I just do not understand how one can sympathize with Israel. As the facts gather, the more I read the news, I just build up guilt because of the feelings that I grow towards this country.

 

[Evo]

Hi humanino, please post a link to the source so we can discuss.

Thanks.

 

[tiny-tim]

speculation time!

Can someone explain me why

- Israel would bomb a water well, upon which the survival of innocent lives relies ?
- Israel would forbid plastic remplacement pieces for those wells to cross the borders ? Plastic cannot be melt to built weapons.

oh, it's speculation time!

(perhaps this should be transferred to the https://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=33" sub-forum? )

let's see …

is this in the gaza strip? … let's assume it is …

the gaza strip isn't a desert, and it has a proper water distribution system, both for drinking water and waste water, so the survival of lives can't depend on one well …

is that the right answer? ​

As the days, the weeks, and the years go along, I just do not understand how one can sympathize with Israel. As the facts gather, the more I read the news, I just build up guilt because of the feelings that I grow towards this country.

since you appear to want to sympathise with israel, i suggest you concentrate on the eight years of fatal rocket attacks on israeli civilian towns, and the israeli insistence on allowing sufficient food electricity and other essential humanitarian supplies as an exception to the israeli-egyptian economic sanctions

 

[Moridin]

I can only find one sided reports on the incidents you mention. If you want to support Israel, I recommend reading pro-Israel material. If you want to oppose Israel and side with the Palestinians, I recommend reading anti-Israel material.

tiny-tim,

Fatalities in the recent Israeli war on Gaza: 1300 (and more indirect deaths)
Fatalities from Hamas rockets that made Israel attack: 3

http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTopNews/idUKTRE50I2LU20090119
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rael-under-huge-pressure-to-halt-attacks.html

The numbers speak for themselves, and demonstrates why animosity exists towards Israel. The numbers indicate that you have one superpower trying to bully millions of people who cannot defend themselves or have sufficient food, water or electricity.

 

[tiny-tim]

selective statistics

tiny-tim,

Fatalities in the recent Israeli war on Gaza: 1300 (and more indirect deaths)
Fatalities from Hamas rockets that made Israel attack: 3
…
The numbers speak for themselves, and demonstrates why animosity exists towards Israel.

that's a rather one-sided selection of statistics …

the israelis seem to think that hamas has been attacking civilian towns with rockets, with many fatalities, for 8 years …

i wonder whether they might be right?

but i agree with you … if people use statistics as selectively as those, then no wonder those people have animosity towards israel …

 

[turbo]

http://cgi.wn.com/?action=display&article=82352466&template=worldnews/paidnews.txt&index=recent

"Eight main water artesian wells were either fully or partially destroyed during the [Israeli] bombardments," Shoblak said.

But repair work is hampered by import bans. Israel has banned imports of items such as pipes, saying they may be used for making bombs. The CMWU was also not able to import excavators, heavy vehicles, and other specialist equipment. During the Israeli offensive virtually no repair work could be carried out, Shoblak said, adding: "Eight repair workers were killed in the Israeli attacks."

Israel also raised the ire of the French Foreign Minister by holding up a French diplomatic delegation trying to enter Gaza, and by refusing to allow a badly-needed French-made water treatment plant into Gaza. He called the Israeli ambassador to Paris to explain the refusal and got no satisfactory reasons.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/palestine/?id=30133

The plant could have supplied 2000 cubic meters of clean water per day.

 

[tiny-tim]

http://cgi.wn.com/?action=display&article=82352466&template=worldnews/paidnews.txt&index=recent

hmm … that's from 19 days ago … it comes from Gaza's top water engineer, Majed Ghannam … it begins …

With Gaza's sewerage system on the verge of collapse, a top water engineer has warned of the risk of groundwater contamination in the enclave, making clean water scarcer than it already is.

Gaza is particularly vulnerable to groundwater contamination since its sandy desert soil easily absorbs water - or sewage from leaking sewage pipes. Compounding the risk is the fact that groundwater is relatively near the surface, and wells dug to access it tend to be shallow.

'sfunny how 19 days later we haven't heard of sewerage collapse or groundwater contamination or indeed any water-related problem …

i wonder why this news is being suppressed?

 

[nabki]

Because it's been happening since the siege on gaza started? I don't know where you get your news, but I've been seeing a lot of videos on various networks of water problems in gaza.
The fact that a water processing plant is not being allowed into gaza is pretty funny. let's analyze this situation:
Hamas uses rockets to attack israel.
Rockets are either imported grad rockets or home brew pipes with a funnel at the top, some sugar, gunpowder spice (TNT, urea nitrates), and explosive nice.
Lets be stupid for a minute, and pretend that water treatment plants can be reverse engineered and used for military purposes, or even more silly and pretend that hamas are going to use the piping for rockets.
That means the french were ignorant enough to send some weapons to hamas.

Now, let's snap back to reality. why was the water treatment plant refused entry into gaza? tiny-tim, this question is directed to you specifically. Why was it not allowed into gaza?

 

[tiny-tim]

What is wrong with the French?

Now, let's snap back to reality. why was the water treatment plant refused entry into gaza?

i assume it's because the water treatment plant wasn't sufficiently necessary to justify making an exception to the israeli-egyptian economic sanctions against gaza

the whole point of economic sanctions is to make things difficult …

so long as the water supply is sufficient, the inconvenience of having to use bowsers is no reason why israel and egypt should allow the french to weaken their economic sanctions

israel and egypt have of course been continuously allowing humanitarian aid in … see http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Governmen...ian_aid_Gaza_after_IDF_operation_Jan_2009.htm for details up to Feb 16

 

[Gokul43201]

'sfunny how 19 days later we haven't heard of sewerage collapse or groundwater contamination or indeed any water-related problem …

Doesn't seem all that funny to me. Here's a more recent report:

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/MUMA-7PC2XE?OpenDocument

 

[russ_watters]

I'm going to operate on the assumption that the information in the OP is accurate, for the purpose of the discussion...

Can someone explain me why

- Israel would bomb a water well, upon which the survival of innocent lives relies ?
- Israel would forbid plastic remplacement pieces for those wells to cross the borders ? Plastic cannot be melt to built weapons.

The best way to deal with this would be for you to read-up on the concept of siege warfare and then ask specific questions about what you don't understand. Here's the wiki on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege

In short, though, since the military and civilians are completely intertwined, in order to attack the military supply sources in Gaza, you must attack the civilian ones as well. A random water well likely serves both civilians and the military. The necessity of this and the blockade can easily be seen by the fact that the Hamas military loots humanitarian relief for the purpose of sustaining it's military. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=29802&Cr=gaza&Cr1=unrwa

The intertwining of the civilian and military supply strucutres and therefore the insertion of them into the conflict is Hama's choice, not Israel's.

As the days, the weeks, and the years go along, I just do not understand how one can sympathize with Israel. As the facts gather, the more I read the news, I just build up guilt because of the feelings that I grow towards this country.

That's a very odd thing to say. Israeli attacks on Gaza do not in any way harm Israel directly, so searching for sympathy for Israel in them is a complete irrelevancy. Quite obviously, if one wants to look for reasons to sympathize with Israel, they should look to the actions of Hamas against Israel. Based on your wording here, it implies you have no interest in analyzing the situation objectively, but are looking only for reasons to demonize Israel.

Note, the inverse is slightly different: reasons for sympathizing with the Palestinians can be found in both Israel's actions (such as the ones you listed) and with Hamas's (such as the issue I brought up above). Hamas picks the battlefield and chooses to put the civilians of Gaza at risk as a calculated strategy in this conflict.

 

[russ_watters]

tiny-tim,

Fatalities in the recent Israeli war on Gaza: 1300 (and more indirect deaths)
Fatalities from Hamas rockets that made Israel attack: 3

http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTopNews/idUKTRE50I2LU20090119
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rael-under-huge-pressure-to-halt-attacks.html

The numbers speak for themselves, and demonstrates why animosity exists towards Israel. The numbers indicate that you have one superpower trying to bully millions of people who cannot defend themselves or have sufficient food, water or electricity.

Animosity toward Israel is not based on that body count - if it were, the many cease-fires that Israel has tried would end up being permanent. If you want to know why the animosity exists, just ask Hamas: It exists because Israel exists on land they claim as their own. Thus it is quite logically clear that any peace under the current status quo is to Israel's benefit and Hamas's detriment: so it is in Hamas's interest to continue to fight -- which is, of course, why the fighting continues.

 

[turbo]

i assume it's because the water treatment plant wasn't sufficiently necessary to justify making an exception to the israeli-egyptian economic sanctions against gaza

the whole point of economic sanctions is to make things difficult …

so long as the water supply is sufficient, the inconvenience of having to use bowsers is no reason why israel and egypt should allow the french to weaken their economic sanctions

israel and egypt have of course been continuously allowing humanitarian aid in … see http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Governmen...ian_aid_Gaza_after_IDF_operation_Jan_2009.htm for details up to Feb 16

You seem to be missing the point that denying adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc to a population under occupation is a crime under international law. Israel is letting in a bit of humanitarian aid as a fig-leaf - the sad fact it that it is far too little to relieve the deprivations that Palestinians in Gaza are suffering. Collective punishment of this type is criminal.

 

[humanino]

Hi humanino, please post a link to the source so we can discuss.

Hi Evo. The reason I chose not to post a link is that I wonder how someone who is not already aware of those events could have a relevant opinion on those questions anyway. If this is not suitable to PF guidelines, you are welcome to close.

Fatalities in the recent Israeli war on Gaza: 1300 (and more indirect deaths)
Fatalities from Hamas rockets that made Israel attack: 3

So at some point it is not even a matter of quantity anymore, it is a matter of different quality. Please pardon my french, but we have reached a phase transition here.

Based on your wording here, it implies you have no interest in analyzing the situation objectively, but are looking only for reasons to demonize Israel.

Then my wording must be deeply wrong. I think I'd better stop the discussion until my head cools down.

 

[russ_watters]

i assume it's because the water treatment plant wasn't sufficiently necessary to justify making an exception to the israeli-egyptian economic sanctions against gaza

the whole point of economic sanctions is to make things difficult …

so long as the water supply is sufficient, the inconvenience of having to use bowsers is no reason why israel and egypt should allow the french to weaken their economic sanctions

israel and egypt have of course been continuously allowing humanitarian aid in … see http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Governmen...ian_aid_Gaza_after_IDF_operation_Jan_2009.htm for details up to Feb 16

Note (to all) that this explanation requires a conclusion or assumption that Israel's explanation for the denial is a lie or incomplete. I'm ok with that: war isn't PC, so giving the full military reason for making life difficult for everyone in Gaza would not be in Israel's interest. People (as we can clearly see in this thread) have blinders on and don't view the entire situation in it's proper context. This is how war works, guys, and you need to deal with it. Hamas is in control of the direction of the war: they are the ones who have objectives to achieve via fighting, not Israel. They are responsible for the plight they put their citizens in by continuing to fight.

 

[humanino]

denying adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc to a population under occupation is a crime under international law

And what I am wondering about is crystal clear : when will it no longer be inappropriate for the international community to state it clearly against Israel ?

 

[tiny-tim]

Here's a more recent report:

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/MUMA-7PC2XE?OpenDocument

well, that oxfam report confirms that repairs are well in hand, without french assistance …

The wrecked electrical control panel has been replaced by water utility engineers. Outside, the huge orange generator sits smashed, awaiting repair. Shrapnel holes in the diesel tank have already been welded over.

and even that report doesn't allege that there is any general sewerage collapse or groundwater contamination (though there is considerable damage to the surface soil of farmland near the sewage plant)

 

[Proton Soup]

russ is right. there's really no such thing as humanitarian aid in a war. the warriors just divert the aid. or if it's an entire government you're dealing with like in Iraq, it just means there is that much less the government has to do to sustain the population, and so it takes pressure off the government, materially and politically.

 

[russ_watters]

You seem to be missing the point that denying adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc to a population under occupation is a crime under international law. Israel is letting in a bit of humanitarian aid as a fig-leaf - the sad fact it that it is far too little to relieve the deprivations that Palestinians in Gaza are suffering. Collective punishment of this type is criminal.

Israel does not recognize that they are an occupying force in Gaza. The internationl community may not have lifted that designation, but neither are they willing to attempt to enforce the requirements of the label. They know that the situation is not as simple as that. They know that Hamas, not Israel, is the main reason for the suffering of the citizens of Gaza. They know that enforcing the rules of war must start with the removal of Hamas and prosecution of most of it's members, so to go after Israel would be a rediculous hypocrisy.

 

[russ_watters]

Hi Evo. The reason I chose not to post a link is that I wonder how someone who is not already aware of those events could have a relevant opinion on those questions anyway.

I hope you realize you just declared yourself an authority on the subject. We don't accept that. That's why you must post your links: it isn't just for the knowledge of others, it is to prove that what you say is true.

 

[russ_watters]

And what I am wondering about is crystal clear : when will it no longer be inappropriate for the international community to state it clearly against Israel ?

As soon as the international community deals with the cause of the problem: Hamas. To go after Israel first would be hypocritical.

 

[russ_watters]

russ is right. there's really no such thing as humanitarian aid in a war. the warriors just divert the aid. or if it's an entire government you're dealing with like in Iraq, it just means there is that much less the government has to do to sustain the population, and so it takes pressure off the government, materially and politically.

Note, this is also the situation in North Korea, but for some reason, sympathy for the North Koreans isn't popular these days. No doubt, though, if North Korea started lobbing rockets across the border and South Korea responded, people would be demonizing South Korea despite the fact that North Korea has been a self-imposed humanitarian disaster for decades.

 

[Skyhunter]

Note, this is also the situation in North Korea, but for some reason, sympathy for the North Koreans isn't popular these days. No doubt, though, if North Korea started lobbing rockets across the border and South Korea responded, people would be demonizing South Korea despite the fact that North Korea has been a self-imposed humanitarian disaster for decades.

No it is not the same. The two scenarios are quite unique.

For one, Hamas was a legally elected to the government.

 

[turbo]

Israel does not recognize that they are an occupying force in Gaza. The internationl community may not have lifted that designation, but neither are they willing to attempt to enforce the requirements of the label. They know that the situation is not as simple as that. They know that Hamas, not Israel, is the main reason for the suffering of the citizens of Gaza. They know that enforcing the rules of war must start with the removal of Hamas and prosecution of most of it's members, so to go after Israel would be a rediculous hypocrisy.

Israel was complicit in the rise of Hamas, when they were trying to divide the Palestinians and reduce the authority of the PLO. Guess what? When Hamas won a democratic election, Israel and the US found it inconvenient to deal with Hamas. They had done their level best to isolate the PLO and avoid any substantive negotiations, and then when Hamas was elected, they had to demonize that organization, too.

 

[tiny-tim]

adequate humanitarian supplies

You seem to be missing the point that denying adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc to a population under occupation is a crime under international law.

well, obviously it is … who's denying that?

you're missing the point that israel and egypt are allowing adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc into gaza …

see eg the link i posted earlier … http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government...n_Jan_2009.htm

denying adequate water, food, medicine, fuel, etc to a population under occupation is a crime under international law

And what I am wondering about is crystal clear : when will it no longer be inappropriate for the international community to state it clearly against Israel ?

and against egypt? or just against israel?

well … it would need to be true, for a start …

the international community has a high regard for truth!

 

[humanino]

I hope you realize you just declared yourself an authority on the subject.

No I don't realize that. If I post a discussion saying "How do you like the new president Obama ?", do I have to provide a link proving that he was elected ? No, because everybody knows he was. If one is unaware of the events I refer to in the first post, my horribly biased opinion is that this person is not competent to discuss them. I don't understand how I become an authority in anything here.

 

[turbo]

No I don't realize that. If I post a discussion saying "How do you like the new president Obama ?", do I have to provide a link proving that he was elected ? No, because everybody knows he was. If one is unaware of the events I refer to in the first post, my horribly biased opinion is that this person is not competent to discuss them. I don't understand how I become an authority in anything here.

It is clear that humanino is well-aware of the fact that Israel has refused to allow a water-treatment system given by the French people to the Palestinians under siege in Gaza to be delivered to them. If my country's humanitarian efforts had been rebuffed in such a way, I would feel the same. Worse, actually, since the US arms and finances Israel and supports it campaigns against the Palestinians.

 

[Proton Soup]

No it is not the same. The two scenarios are quite unique.

For one, Hamas was a legally elected to the government.

only elected governments are legal?

or perhaps your point is that the palestinian people are to blame for the rockets, and not hamas. so, it is logical to attack the people since they are the source of the problem.

 

[tiny-tim]

awareness vs. understanding

It is clear that humanino is well-aware of the fact that Israel has refused to allow a water-treatment system given by the French people to the Palestinians under siege in Gaza to be delivered to them. …

yes, but although she was aware, she specifically said that she didn't understand, and she asked for help …

Can someone explain me why - Israel would …

and …

As the days, the weeks, and the years go along, I just do not understand how one can sympathize with Israel. …

and since she didn't say which sources her information came from, it was a little difficult for other members to help her by directing to other sources that would increase her understanding

if you're asking for members to help you, it's really only common-sense to say what work you've already done

 

[Gokul43201]

'sfunny how 19 days later we haven't heard of sewerage collapse or groundwater contamination or indeed any water-related problem …

I believe the report addressed the third clause (bolded by me), which (I think) was subsequently acknowledged by you.

and even that report doesn't allege that there is any general sewerage collapse or groundwater contamination (though there is considerable damage to the surface soil of farmland near the sewage plant)

 

[Skyhunter]

only elected governments are legal?

or perhaps your point is that the palestinian people are to blame for the rockets, and not hamas. so, it is logical to attack the people since they are the source of the problem.

Those are your arguments not mine.

I was simply stating that the two are not comparable.

 

[Gokul43201]

yes, but although she was aware, she specifically said that she didn't understand, and she asked for help …

and …


and since she didn't say which sources her information came from, it was a little difficult for other members to help her by directing to other sources that would increase her understanding

if you're asking for members to help you, it's really only common-sense to say what work you've already done

Psst...she's a he!

 

[turbo]

Psst...she's a he!

humaino has at least one really hot girl-friend.

 

[Proton Soup]

Those are your arguments not mine.

I was simply stating that the two are not comparable.

i'm stating that they are comparable.

 

[russ_watters]

For one, Hamas was a legally elected to the government.

"Was" being the operative word there, of course - once Hamas destroyed dissent with military force, they became an illegal government.

But that doesn't really have anything to do with the subject of the thread...

 

[turbo]

"Was" being the operative word there, of course - once Hamas destroyed dissent with military force, they became an illegal government.

But that doesn't really have anything to do with the subject of the thread...

It is interesting that on this forum you can get away with claiming that Hamas' election was equivalent to destroying an existing government with military force. Prove it or back down and apologize for the lies. I'm getting sick of the constant Israel suck-up and the constant demonization of Palestinians who were driven from their homes driven into refugee status by the Zionists. I know that the the Jews were badly treated by anti-Semites in Europe. It sucks to see them subject the Palestinians to the same type of treatment.

 

[Proton Soup]

It is interesting that on this forum you can get away with claiming that Hamas' election was equivalent to destroying an existing government with military force. Prove it or back down and apologize for the lies. I'm getting sick of the constant Israel suck-up and the constant demonization of Palestinians who were driven from their homes driven into refugee status by the Zionists. I know that the the Jews were badly treated by anti-Semites in Europe. It sucks to see them subject the Palestinians to the same type of treatment.

i believe it has a lot to do with the constant threat of annihilation that israel receives from its neighbors. if it hadn't been for the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War" , there would be no gaza situation to speak of. so, sure, i find it very difficult to sympathize with gazans. they've had plenty of time to move out.

 

[russ_watters]

It is interesting that on this forum you can get away with claiming that Hamas' election was equivalent to destroying an existing government with military force.

I did nothing of the sort! What I said was that Hamas was elected, then they destroyed opposition and the rest of the government with military force.

Prove it or back down and apologize for the lies. I'm getting sick of the constant Israel suck-up...

Jeez, talk about common knowledge events that people forget easily!:

The Fatah-Hamas conflict (Arabic: النزاع بين فتح و حماس‎ Al-Nizāʿ bain Fataḥ wa Ḥamās), also referred to as the Palestinian Civil War (Arabic: الحرب الأهلية الفلسطينية Al-Ḥarb al-ʾAhliyyah al-Filisṭīnīyah), and the Conflict of Brothers (Arabic: صراع الأخوة Ṣirāʿ al-Ikhwah), began in 2006 and has continued, in one form or another, into 2009. The conflict is between the two main Palestinian parties, Fatah and Hamas. The majority of the fighting is occurring in the Gaza Strip where fighting began after Hamas' legislative victories. Hamas remains in control of the Gaza Strip. The conflict is called Wakseh among Palestinians, meaning humiliation, ruin, and collapse as a result of self-inflicted damage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_civil_skirmishes

Key point:

On June 14th Abbas dissolved the Palestinian-Hamas unity government, on June 15th, Hamas completed the control over Gaza.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007 )

...and the constant demonization of Palestinians who were driven from their homes driven into refugee status by the Zionists.

You must be misreading. Most people (including me) show a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people - it is Hamas that we don't like.

...I know that the the Jews were badly treated by anti-Semites in Europe. It sucks to see them subject the Palestinians to the same type of treatment.

Yikes, Turbo, the same type of treatment? Honestly, that's sick that you would make such a comparison. Seriously, it is disturbing that such thoughts could exist in your head.

 

[humanino]

Yikes, Turbo, the same type of treatment? Honestly, that's sick that you would make such a comparison. Seriously, it is disturbing that such thoughts could exist in your head.

It is very sick, yes. It gives me quite some pain down in my belly. I started this thread because I need help stopping those thoughts to come to my mind as I read the news everyday.

 

[Evo]

It is interesting that on this forum you can get away with claiming that Hamas' election was equivalent to destroying an existing government with military force. Prove it or back down and apologize for the lies. I'm getting sick of the constant Israel suck-up and the constant demonization of Palestinians who were driven from their homes driven into refugee status by the Zionists. I know that the the Jews were badly treated by anti-Semites in Europe. It sucks to see them subject the Palestinians to the same type of treatment.

Hamas first took over by force then "won" an election. Fair election? When people are in fear of their lives?

Also, can the attitude.

 

[russ_watters]

Hamas first took over by force then "won" an election. Fair election? When people are in fear of their lives?

I think you have it backwards...

[edit] Actually - I guess they just had another election, so maybe not...

 

[nabki]

for those of you who don't know: look at the reports on an American payed Fatah militia leader Dahlan overthrow attempt against Hamas with the money going through Bandar Bin Sultan, and the training happening in Egypt. then you know why Hamas went and overthrew Fatah in Gaza. now, i don't agree with Hamas on some of its methods, but Fatah has become more and more corrupt, more and more unpopular, and more and more tyrannical. Israel is sieging Gaza, i don't see how this is different from the siege of Sarajevo or the siege of Palestinian refugee camps in the Lebanon civil war. let me get this point across: Hamas WILL have the ability to keep on firing rockets and making them. as many chemists here might know, you can use almost anything to make said rockets. when Israel stopped anything from entering the strip, it still had rockets being fired against it. the siege was and is ineffective against hams. it is very effective against the Palestinian civilians. its effect on Palestinian civilians is as follows: they now support Hamas less than they initially did, but the support Fatah even less and they loath Israel even more than they did before the siege.

 

[FredericGos]

What a utterly stupid discussion.

The ONLY conclusion to the whole israeli/palestine mess is that a BIG PART of both sides are just crazy and simply are not human anymore after years and years of fueling hatred. I have no respect for either side as they both stink.

Taking part in any discussion favoring either side is just stupidity. Pardon my french.

And the funny thing, they are excatly the same people. so sad.

 

[tiny-tim]

"demonising"

I'm getting sick of the constant Israel suck-up and the constant demonization of Palestinians …

Nobody is "demonising" the Palestininans, or Fatah …

the "demonising" is of Hamas.

See this commentary of the Hamas charter … http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
"Copyright by MidEastWeb for Coexistence R.A - Middle East - http://www.mideastweb.org. All rights reserved." …

Hamas Principles

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."​

The charter is a rather classical Islamist document, applied to the local issues. It declares that Jihad (in the sense of armed battle) is the only solution. It cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a ludicrous anti-Semitic forgery.

The "Zionists" and the freemasons and others are blamed for what Hamas and radical Islamists see as the major calamities of the world, especially the French Revolution.

One of the most ominous aspects of the Charter however, is this Hadith:

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).​

The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas "aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take."

That's pretty demonic, isn't it?

… who were driven from their homes driven into refugee status by the Zionists. I know that the the Jews were badly treated by anti-Semites in Europe.

The Jews were also badly treated in Arab countries …

what about the Jews "who were driven from their homes driven into refugee status" during the Jewish naqba, at the same time as the Palestinian naqba?

For example, the 120,000 Iraqi Jews, mostly from Baghdad, who were expelled, with nobody now clamouring for their right of return to Baghdad? … http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands#Iraq

 

[nabki]

maybe because that was a direct result of the palestinian nakba? and because they are now an 'occupying' force, instead of an occupied force?

 

[turbo]

It is very sick, yes. It gives me quite some pain down in my belly. I started this thread because I need help stopping those thoughts to come to my mind as I read the news everyday.

At least you get the news in your media, humanino. You can search US media in vain for any mention of Israel's refusal to allow France's gift of a water treatment system to enter Gaza, though on January 30th, it hit the media all over the world after France was forced to repatriate the system. It is no wonder that many people in the US are unaware of human-rights abuses against Palestinians - they are simply not reported in the US media. The World Bank has spent a lot of time and money improving Gaza's water systems - now further improvements must wait until destroyed wells and pumping systems can be repaired.

 

[seycyrus]

I for one am getting sick and tired of the people who throw down the same reasoning that has been soundly defeated time and time and time again. Doing a simple body count comparison! Such intentional deception should be grounds for banning in my opinion.

Hamas shoots rockets into Israel. It doesn't matter that they miss their target! I call anyone who makes such a proposal a hypocrite.

 

[Gokul43201]

I for one am getting sick and tired of the people who throw down the same reasoning that has been soundly defeated time and time and time again. Doing a simple body count comparison! Such intentional deception should be grounds for banning in my opinion.

Hamas shoots rockets into Israel. It doesn't matter that they miss their target! I call anyone who makes such a proposal a hypocrite.

It's not clear what specific proposal you are attacking, but to play devil's advocate for a bit, here's a question: how do you determine what level of aggression (and accordingly, what level of collateral damage) is justified by any given threat?

For instance, your argument above does not provide any reason to criticize Israel if they simply nuked (or carpet bombed) all of Gaza, so would you support or condone such an action?

I agree that an "argument" that begins and ends at a body count fails to meet the definition of an argument, but I do not believe that a comparison of body counts can not be a part of a rational argument.

 

[seycyrus]

It's not clear what specific proposal you are attacking, but to play devil's advocate for a bit, here's a question: how do you determine what level of aggression (and accordingly, what level of collateral damage) is justified by any given threat?

I do not have a formula to calculate the level of a justified response. But to simply dismiss any attack due to the fact that the attacker is inept, is ridiculous.

We do not live our daily lives that way. If someone was shooting at you, it is not deemed necessary for them to actually wound or kill you before you return fire. And if you are a better shot and/or have a bigger gun...

For instance, your argument above does not provide any reason to criticize Israel if they simply nuked (or carpet bombed) all of Gaza, so would you support or condone such an action?

I guess (as i thought was clear), I would have to know the stimulus that was provoking such a response.

OTH, suppose it was discovered that Hamas was continually trying to nuke Israel, but was failing because they are inept. What level of cuplability do you assign them if Israel nukes them back? Closer to 0% or closer to 100% ?

 

[Moridin]

Animosity toward Israel is not based on that body count - if it were, the many cease-fires that Israel has tried would end up being permanent. If you want to know why the animosity exists, just ask Hamas: It exists because Israel exists on land they claim as their own. Thus it is quite logically clear that any peace under the current status quo is to Israel's benefit and Hamas's detriment: so it is in Hamas's interest to continue to fight -- which is, of course, why the fighting continues.

If I kill millions of your country men, and then when you attempt to defend yourself against the holocaust, I call a cease-fire, and then claim that your self defense is an act of aggression, how could that make any such cease-fires be permanent? I'm curious. How could animosity towards Israel not be based on body count? That's like arguing that "the hostility towards Nazism is not based on body count, because if the Jews would just surrender to Nazism as that ideology demanded, there would be a permanent cease-fire".