Why Does Light Travel the Shortest Path?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of why light and other objects travel the shortest path between two points in both flat and curved space or spacetime. Participants explore the implications of forces, geodesics, and the nature of spacetime in relation to this phenomenon.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that light travels along geodesics only when in free fall, while others note that this does not apply if forces are acting on it.
  • A participant questions the meaning of "shortest path," distinguishing between spatial and spacetime paths, and argues that the concept of a shortest path in spacetime has no meaning for light, as its spacetime interval is always zero.
  • Another participant emphasizes that a geodesic is defined as the path taken by a freely falling object, suggesting that this definition is crucial for the spacetime geometry model to make accurate predictions.
  • Some participants express confusion about the mechanism behind the bending of space and why planets follow geodesics around the sun, indicating a desire for a deeper understanding of the underlying physics.
  • One participant posits that the idea of geodesics is a human-made model that effectively predicts outcomes, while questioning the order of physics and modeling in this context.
  • Another participant suggests that the principle of objects traveling along geodesics may be an axiom of physics, prompting a discussion about the implications if this principle were not true.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the nature of geodesics and the conditions under which light and objects travel along them. There is no consensus on the underlying mechanisms or the interpretation of these concepts, indicating that multiple competing views remain.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for specificity regarding the scenarios being discussed, particularly in distinguishing between spatial and spacetime paths. There are unresolved questions about the definitions and implications of geodesics, as well as the relationship between physics and the models used to describe it.

Cobalt101
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Why does light (or indeed any object) travel the shortest path between two points (whether for flat or curved space/space-time) ?
 
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Cobalt101 said:
Why does light (or indeed any object) travel the shortest path between two points (whether for flat or curved space/space-time) ?
Well, it DOESN'T travel on a geodesic if there is a force acting on it, only if it is in freefall (no forces).
 
But my question is if there is no force acting on it (i.e. free fall) why does it travel on the geodesic?
 
Cobalt101 said:
Why does light (or indeed any object) travel the shortest path between two points (whether for flat or curved space/space-time) ?

Do you mean the shortest path in space or the shortest path in spacetime?

If you mean the shortest path in space, it's not always the case that light, or any object, takes that path. You need to be more specific about what scenario you are talking about.

If you mean the shortest path in spacetime, that concept as you state it has no meaning for light, since the spacetime interval along a light ray's worldline in spacetime is always zero. For ordinary objects, if they are in free fall, then the path they take through spacetime is the longest path between two events, not the shortest.
 
Cobalt101 said:
if there is no force acting on it (i.e. free fall) why does it travel on the geodesic?

A geodesic is defined as the path in spacetime that a freely falling object takes. The reason it's defined that way is that that's what makes the spacetime geometry model work correctly, i.e., make correct predictions.
 
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PeterDonis said:
Do you mean the shortest path in space or the shortest path in spacetime?

If you mean the shortest path in space, it's not always the case that light, or any object, takes that path. You need to be more specific about what scenario you are talking about.

If you mean the shortest path in spacetime, that concept as you state it has no meaning for light, since the spacetime interval along a light ray's worldline in spacetime is always zero. For ordinary objects, if they are in free fall, then the path they take through spacetime is the longest path between two events, not the shortest.

I guess my question is at the basic end of things, trying to understand how the bending of space actually "works", what is the mechanism- for example, why does a planet follow the geodesic around the sun ?
 
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Cobalt101 said:
why does a planet follow the geodesic around the sun ?
Geodesics in space-time is a human made model. It's our interpretation of the world. Why we use that interpretation? Because it works for making quantitative predictions.
 
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Cobalt101 said:
I guess my question is at the basic end of things, trying to understand how the bending of space actually "works", what is the mechanism- for example, why does a planet follow the geodesic around the sun ?

Well, if you consider a classical flat space you could then ask why objects travel on straight lines when not subject to a net force.
 
Yes - that is a subset of the question. Is there any understanding as to why this is the case (ie as no forces are involved)
 
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I believe it is simply an axiom of physics. Perhaps it would be better to ask what would happen if that principle wasn't true?
 
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Cobalt101 said:
what is the mechanism- for example, why does a planet follow the geodesic around the sun ?

You're looking at things backwards. Saying that a planet follows a geodesic is our way of modeling what happens; we model it that way because we've found that that model makes good predictions. But the physics comes first, then the model. Asking why planets follow geodesics implies that the model comes first, then the physics; that's backwards.
 
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