News Why does the U.S. continue to provide military aid to Israel?

[Char. Limit]

it was later declared an accident? i would say that was diplomacy, given that the Sec. State says he still doesn't believe it was an accident.

Does a former Secretary of State represent the U.S. Government now?

Personally, I would support Israel because we have to. If we attempted to support the Arab nations, keeping in mind the fact that we need them, they don't need us, they'd soon betray us, make our lives miserable, etc. Israel needs us to survive, and we should support the one least likely to betray us. The Arab nations, upon whom we depend but who do not depend upon us, are far more likely to betray us than Israel, who depends on us.

Also, the right wing in our country would never allow us to endorse a nation that espouses, heaven forbid, Islam! Remember that whole anti-Arab, anti-Muslim current in our right wing? They'd just filibuster.

 

[estro]

Does a former Secretary of State represent the U.S. Government now?

Personally, I would support Israel because we have to. If we attempted to support the Arab nations, keeping in mind the fact that we need them, they don't need us, they'd soon betray us, make our lives miserable, etc. Israel needs us to survive, and we should support the one least likely to betray us. The Arab nations, upon whom we depend but who do not depend upon us, are far more likely to betray us than Israel, who depends on us.

Also, the right wing in our country would never allow us to endorse a nation that espouses, heaven forbid, Islam! Remember that whole anti-Arab, anti-Muslim current in our right wing? They'd just filibuster.

I think there is another reason for US-Israel ties.
Many governments in Europe are under constant pressure by their Muslim population, and which in turn influences their policies towards Israel.
But in the US the opposite phenomena occurs, many high profile post are held by Jews, and the Jewish population make itself known.

 

[russ_watters]

Is the cost of the first Gulf War included in our "aid" to Saudia Arabia and Kuwait?

 

[vertices]

Israel needs us to survive, and we should support the one least likely to betray us.

This language makes me a bit uncomfortable. It is Holocaust tinged and appeals to emotion. I don't for a second doubt that the regimes surrounding Israel are despotic and extremely repressive, but it would be absurd to suggest that they wish to destroy Israel.

The fact of the matter it is not is any nation's interest to blindly support Israel's increasingly outrageous actions. As much as the world adores him, Barack O. stands to lose a great deal of moral credibility if he continues to tactilely support Israeli intransigence.

 

[Evo]

This language makes me a bit uncomfortable. It is Holocaust tinged and appeals to emotion. I don't for a second doubt that the regimes surrounding Israel are despotic and extremely repressive, but it would be absurd to suggest that they wish to destroy Israel.

You do know that they have said that they will not be happy until Israel ceases to exist?

 

[tiny-tim]

This language makes me a bit uncomfortable. It is Holocaust tinged … Israel's increasingly outrageous actions … Israeli intransigence.

Your language makes me uncomfortable …

you raise the Holocaust when nobody else has mentioned it, and you criticize Israel as being outrageous and intransigent without giving any reasons, as if it was obvious to anyone of your intelligence.

The fact of the matter it is not is any nation's interest …

This is a scientific forum …

do you actually understand the difference between fact and opinion?

 

[vertices]

tiny-tim - I was thinking about Israel's actions in Gaza last year which left hundreds of children dead, and the fact it forged UK passports in order to carry out an extra judicial assassination in a sovereign nation (you can't make this up!). And more recently ofcourse, this flotilla incident, technically an act of piracy.

Evo - Well, I'm guessing you're referring to Iran - specifically Mr Ahmadinjad's comment that he wishes to see "Israel wiped off the map"? As much as I hate the guy (and the wacky views he espouses), this comment was infact a mistranslation.

An Iranian friend was explaining that Farsi is a poetic metaphor-ridden language (in contrast to English which is clinically precise). These things happen, and should not be blown out of context for political reasons.

 

[tiny-tim]

tiny-tim - I was thinking about Israel's actions …

Having objected to your language, you now make it worse by going completely off-topic, with remarks both highly biased and highly questionable.

Evo - Well, I'm guessing you're referring to Iran - specifically Mr Ahmadinjad's comment that he wishes to see "Israel wiped off the map"?

Since Evo clearly used a different phrase, I expect she wasn't referring to Iran. Again, you're raising off-topic material for no apparent reason (and accurate Farsi translate is obviously possible … you can find accurate English translations of Ahmadinejad's words fairly quickly on a google search, if you can be bothered).

 

[zomgwtf]

tiny-tim - I was thinking about Israel's actions in Gaza last year which left hundreds of children dead, and the fact it forged UK passports in order to carry out an extra judicial assassination in a sovereign nation (you can't make this up!). And more recently ofcourse, this flotilla incident, technically an act of piracy.

Evo - Well, I'm guessing you're referring to Iran - specifically Mr Ahmadinjad's comment that he wishes to see "Israel wiped off the map"? As much as I hate the guy (and the wacky views he espouses), this comment was infact a mistranslation.

An Iranian friend was explaining that Farsi is a poetic metaphor-ridden language (in contrast to English which is clinically precise). These things happen, and should not be blown out of context for political reasons.

I would much rather you didn't drag this topic further off course . I was actually interested in the answers, considering many people on these forums are American. I know their answers and opinions have been given but I'd still rather this topic not be locked in case something else comes up or something.

 

[vertices]

I would much rather you didn't drag this topic further off course

That wasn't my intention. tiny-tim pointed out that I had criticised Israel "without giving any reasons". I gave my reasons in couple of lines. Let's move on.

tiny-tim:

I don't want to prejudge Evo's response, but I am pretty certain that no other state in the Middle East (you guys call it the "Near East"?) has said anything to that effect, other than Iran. As for the mistranslation: well, it is an illustration of the power of media- repeat something often enough, it becomes the "truth". "Wiping of the map" is more headline grabbing than "vanish from the page of time".

ON TOPIC: I don't get why the US gives so much aid to a relatively well-off, 1st world country anyway. It shouldn't be called aid. There are 30,000 children dying per day of starvation: as a Brit I have no right to berate the US (as my government's record is pretty bad on this front), but even in terms of cold hard utilitarian calculus, the combined $4billion Israel and Egypt get, could do so much more good elsewhere.

 

[Evo]

I don't want to prejudge Evo's response, but I am pretty certain that no other state in the Middle East (you guys call it the "Near East"?) has said anything to that effect, other than Iran. As for the mistranslation: well, it is an illustration of the power of media- repeat something often enough, it becomes the "truth". "Wiping of the map" is more headline grabbing than "vanish from the page of time".

Hamas has made similar statements, was just reading one from one of their leaders the other day, I don't remember which article it was in.

 

[vertices]

Hamas has made similar statements, was just reading one from one of their leaders the other day, I don't remember which article it was in.

Yes but Hamas isn't a state, it's an organisation. As such, it is comprised of a bunch of people (yes, some of them are terrorists) who tend to spew great deal of rhetoric that is often-times beneath contempt. It doesn't have press offices to vet the comments people make.

 

[estro]

...
but it would be absurd to suggest that they wish to destroy Israel.

So you say that the 7 wars we had to fight (many, for our existence) are not because they want to destroy us but a gesture of love?

I think your reasoning is blocked by hatred, the same hatred flows and floods in our wild neighbors veins .
Our wild neighbors will never rest in fact, until this hatred will be kicked out of them and will be replaced by stunning fear. But I believe we are too peace loving for doing that...

*sorry for being too emotional, these kind of "opinions" make me boil.

 

[Cyrus]

Our wild neighbors will never rest in fact, until this hatred will be kicked out of them and will be replaced by stunning fear. But I believe we are too peace loving for doing that...

Guess what estro, the more you call them your 'wild neighbors' the more they won't like you either. Overall, I think this statement is a bit absurd on many levels.

 

[estro]

Guess what estro, the more you call them your 'wild neighbors' the more they won't like you either. Overall, I think this statement is a bit absurd on many levels.

Your talking based on air, my talking based on blood.
You opinions based on media (cartoon network?), my based on blood.

 

[Cyrus]

Your talking based on air, my talking based on blood.

<shrug> Okayyyyy??...

 

[estro]

All things seem very simple, when they are far away...

 

[Cyrus]

All things seem very simple, when they are far away...

<shrug> Okayyy...? When did I say anything was simple?

 

[estro]

<shrug> Okayyy...?

I'm happy we reached agreement =)

 

[Cyrus]

I'm happy we reached agreement =)

My point is this: I understand you don't love the countries around you; however, blind hatred is only going to lead you, and your country, into years of more aggression. Consider what I just said, and your reply a few posts back about wild dogs and your proposed 'solution' to this problem.

 

[estro]

My point is this: I understand you don't love the countries around you; however, blind hatred is only going to lead you, and your country, into years of more aggression. Consider what I just said, and your reply a few posts back about wild dogs and your proposed 'solution' to this problem.

1. I never said "dogs".
2. Israeli policy (which I fully support) has nothing to do with hatred.
3. I would love to love them (heh), the problem they will never love me back.

 

[Char. Limit]

I thought of something else today... Israel won every territory it has in wars that it didn't start. Is this not correct? It won the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and the Gaza Strip in wars that Israel, quite frankly, did not instigate. Now, my facts may be wrong on the war in 1967 (tbh I can't remember if Israel started the war or not), but I know the 1948 war was defensive. And if you win territory in a war you didn't start... I say let them keep it. To the victor go the spoils of the enemy.

 

[Cyrus]

1. I never said "dogs".
2. Israeli policy (which I fully support) has nothing to do with hatred.
3. I would love to love them (heh), the problem they will never love me back.

Sorry, I meant to say "wild neighbors." Wild dogs is an american saying, and I accidentally mixed the two up when I replied to your post.

To your second item, your reply was just that - yours. Not Israeli policy, as far as I am aware.

To your third point, don't underestimate other people. Not all of them are the same.

 

[estro]

I thought of something else today... Israel won every territory it has in wars that it didn't start. Is this not correct? It won the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and the Gaza Strip in wars that Israel, quite frankly, did not instigate. Now, my facts may be wrong on the war in 1967 (tbh I can't remember if Israel started the war or not), but I know the 1948 war was defensive. And if you win territory in a war you didn't start... I say let them keep it. To the victor go the spoils of the enemy.

The 1967 war started after Israeli intelligence revealed Egypt have plan to attack, in this war we conquered the Sinai. (returned by peace treaty)

 

[tiny-tim]

… blind hatred is only going to lead you, and your country, into years of more aggression. Consider what I just said, and your reply a few posts back about wild dogs and your proposed 'solution' to this problem.

Who said anything about hatred, blind or otherwise? …

you made that up! ​

Who said anything about dogs? …

you made that up! ​

And estro made it clear that, although he said other countries hate Israel, Israel didn't hate them and was too peace-loving to stop the hatred (by "stunning fear").

"blind" well describes your reading of estro's post ​

 

[estro]

Sorry, I meant to say "wild neighbors." Wild dogs is an american saying, and I accidentally mixed the two up when I replied to your post.

To your second item, your reply was just that - yours. Not Israeli policy, as far as I am aware.

To your third point, don't underestimate other people. Not all of them are the same.

I don't make policies and don't want to, I voted for PM B. Netanyahu whom I trust to deal with policies.

I never talked about all people, I talked about the majority.

 

[Cyrus]

Who said anything about hatred, blind or otherwise? …

you made that up! ​

"Our wild neighbors will never rest in fact, until this hatred will be kicked out of them and will be replaced by stunning fear."

That would fall under the definition of blind hated, in my opinion. This statement doesn't make sense at any level to be taken seriously.

Who said anything about dogs? …

you made that up! ​

That was a slip, as I pointed out. I corrected that in my post above.

And estro made it clear that, although he said other countries hate Israel, Israel didn't hate them and was too peace-loving to stop the hatred (by "stunning fear").

"blind" well describes your reading of estro's post ​

Ah, yes. You are correct, I misread that part. My apologies.

That being said though, I do not buy the argument that Israel is "too peace loving to stop the hatred" based on its actions in the past, but I am not going to go into it and derail the thread.

 

[estro]

I think sometimes my clumsy English backfires on me =)

Off Topic: (About the Palestinians).

Many times IDF soldiers we have to deal with Palestinian civilians, and many times I got the impression they trust us more then they trust their "goverment" and in fact are prisoners of their extremists...
I know not all of them want this conflict, but terror is too rooted in their culture.
(Hamas brainwashing kinds from very early)

 

[Cyrus]

I think sometimes my clumsy English backfires on me =)

Your English fine .

 

[estro]

Your English fine .

So you think it is my opinions?