News Why does the U.S. continue to provide military aid to Israel?

[tiny-tim]

Sorry, I meant to say "wild neighbors." Wild dogs is an american saying

"Lame dogs", yes. "Wild horses", yes.

but since when was "wild dogs" an American saying?

I understand you don't love the countries around you; however, blind hatred is only going to lead you, and your country, into years of more aggression.

Who said anything about hatred, blind or otherwise? …

you made that up! ​

"Our wild neighbors will never rest in fact, until this hatred will be kicked out of them and will be replaced by stunning fear."

That would fall under the definition of blind hated, in my opinion.

Yes, estro, in the words you've highlighted, was very clearly describing the neighbouring countries

But you were acccusing estro (or Israel) of hatred …

and you did make that up.​

… That was a slip, as I pointed out. I corrected that in my post above.

Ah, yes. You are correct, I misread that part. My apologies.

Three strikes.

 

[Cyrus]

"Lame dogs", yes. "Wild horses", yes.

but since when was "wild dogs" an American saying?

You've never heard someone say "wild as a dog"? (Anyways, if you have not it doesn't really matter and arguing this any further is a waste of time).

Yes, estro, in the words you've highlighted, was very clearly describing the neighbouring countries

But you were acccusing estro (or Israel) of hatred …

and you did make that up.​

Three strikes.

Tim, he clearly said: "until this hatred will be kicked out of them and will be replaced by stunning fear."

He said, quite clearly, that the surrounding countries will never end their hatred towards Israel until it is replaced by "stunning fear". I did not make this up. Reread his statement.

 

[Cyrus]

An equally absurd statement would be akin to:

"Well, you see, the United States could drop all our nuclear bombs on Iraq and Afghanistan and end the war on terrorism; but we are too peace loving to do that so we don't".

You take the most extreme position in the first sentence, and then contrast it by saying how you are so peaceful because you don't actually do it in the next sentence. That is not a demonstration of being peaceful.

 

[vertices]

terror is too rooted in their culture[/B]

When you say things like this and when you constantly refer to Arabs as "wild", what you are doing is dehumanising them which really makes me despair.

Do you live in Sderot or Askhelon? I've been there (to Sderot) and I know how it affects people living in constant fear of rocket attacks - I really do.

But hatred flows both ways. I made a point to see how the other side lives and although I won't share with you what I witnessed, suffice it to say, I saw some pretty twisted things which must have been sanctioned by the Government (not the Israeli people).

What I did take away from my trip is that Israel (Jerusalem in particular) is a truly magical place where Jews, Muslims and Christians historically lived alongside each other in peace and harmony. This is how it is meant to be.

The only way to restore it is to stop both sides dehumanising each other. And this is possible and happening right now - take the village of Neve Shalom, where Arabs and Jews live together - it is so touching to see these two communities living out the ideals of equality and peace.

ANYWAY.. a bit more ON TOPIC:

As regards your point about Israel's survival.

What I am saying is that it is simply not true to say that at present Israel is surrounded by states hell bent on its destruction. Israel now has peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan and the Saudis recognises Israel. Ofcourse there is tension with Syria over Golan Heights, but do you honestly think Syria will attack Israel militarily?

 

[estro]

When you say things like this and when you constantly refer to Arabs as "wild", what you are doing is dehumanising them which really makes me despair.

I have seen it from inside.

Do you live in Sderot or Askhelon?

No, but I have lost friends in the army.

The only way to restore it is to stop both sides dehumanising each other. And this is possible and happening right now - take the village of Neve Shalom, where Arabs and Jews live together - it is so touching to see these two communities living out the ideals of equality and peace.

This is my dream.

As regards your point about Israel's survival.

What I am saying is that it is simply not true to say that at present Israel is surrounded by states hell bent on its destruction. Israel now has peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan and the Saudis recognises Israel. Ofcourse there is tension with Syria over Golan Heights, but do you honestly think Syria will attack Israel militarily?

Syria restrained by fear, but we can't disregard their ability to cause serious damage (They have massive quantity of artillery [long/short range])
What about Iran?

 

[vertices]

This is my dream.

Estro, I don't think it's a dream. It's a real possibility although it might not look like it. Have you heard of a band called Idan Raichel Project (they are amazing!)?

I went to one of their gigs in Jerusalem: they have a gorgeous Ethiopian lady, a Palestinian Arab as well as Jews from all over the world. To me the band symbolises what Israel can and should be.

Syria restrained by fear, but we can't disregard their ability to cause serious damage (They have massive quantity of artillery [long/short range])
What about Iran?

Well, Iran may be hostile but again, I don't think it will do anything to attack Israel. Interestingly, a couple of the people I met in Hebron who happened to be Hamas supporters told me they really do not trust Iran at all because they belong to a different Islamic sect...

 

[Office_Shredder]

Well, Iran may be hostile but again, I don't think it will do anything to attack Israel. Interestingly, a couple of the people I met in Hebron who happened to be Hamas supporters told me they really do not trust Iran at all because they belong to a different Islamic sect...

Oh crap, we all forgot UN Resolution 1492: Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend

This could have all been sorted out back in 1968

 

[estro]

Estro, I don't think it's a dream. It's a real possibility although it might not look like it. Have you heard of a band called Idan Raichel Project (they are amazing!)?

Yes they are!

I went to one of their gigs in Jerusalem: they have a gorgeous Ethiopian lady, a Palestinian Arab as well as Jews from all over the world. To me the band symbolises what Israel can and should be.

Amen!

...
Interestingly, a couple of the people I met in Hebron who happened to be Hamas supporters told me they really do not trust Iran at all because they belong to a different Islamic sect...

I remember doing a mounted patrol in Hevron, they drooped refrigerator on our jeep.

 

[Cyrus]

I remember doing a mounted patrol in Hevron, they drooped refrigerator on our jeep.

lol, that's hilarious. I hope no one got hurt. What did you guys do in return?

 

[estro]

lol, that's hilarious. What did you guys do in return?

Checked out the Palestinian kitchen.

 

[Cyrus]

Checked out the Palestinian kitchen.

You should have put the fridge back in the kitchen for them and say "I think you dropped this."

 

[estro]

lol, that's hilarious. I hope no one got hurt. What did you guys do in return?

Actually there is nothing we could do. Palestinians are very creative and such things were almost a routine.

 

[vertices]

I thought of something else today... Israel won every territory it has in wars that it didn't start. Is this not correct? It won the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and the Gaza Strip in wars that Israel, quite frankly, did not instigate. Now, my facts may be wrong on the war in 1967 (tbh I can't remember if Israel started the war or not), but I know the 1948 war was defensive. And if you win territory in a war you didn't start... I say let them keep it. To the victor go the spoils of the enemy.

Well the territory captured by Israel in 1967 is theirs - this is uncontroversial insofar as all the Arab states are willing to accept this.

However, it is unacceptable and morally reprehensible when Israel encroaches further and further into Palestinian territories, annexing land that is clearly not their's. The whole world recognises that this is wrong and totally in defiance of International Law (hence the term "occupied territories"). I mean, imagine the trauma of having menacing soldiers barge their way into your home to forcibly evict you in the middle of the night (that's when it always happens) - hundreds of Arabs who've lived in Jerusalem for generations are in this awful predicament. This is one of the state policies alongside the crippling, pain and death-inducing blockade imposed on Gazans that Israel must immediately reconsider.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Well the territory captured by Israel in 1967 is theirs - this is uncontroversial insofar as all the Arab states are willing to accept this.

However, it is unacceptable and morally reprehensible when Israel encroaches further and further into Palestinian territories, annexing land that is clearly not their's. The whole world recognises that this is wrong and totally in defiance of International Law (hence the term "occupied territories"). I mean, imagine the trauma of having menacing soldiers barge their way into your home to forcibly evict you in the middle of the night (that's when it always happens) - hundreds of Arabs who've lived in Jerusalem for generations are in this awful predicament. This is one of the state policies alongside the crippling, pain and death-inducing blockade imposed on Gazans that Israel must immediately reconsider.

The West Bank was captured in 1967, as was the Gaza strip, and Israel ended up giving back other territories for peace.

 

[zomgwtf]

I somewhat cringe when I hear people continually say 'international law'. I'm not entirely sure why people think international law is ACTUALLY 'laws' that need to upheld. It's just an 'idea', one that in my opinion fails miserably.

I tend to think people should be more realist than idealist. And right now the 'realist' in me is saying that if no one is willing to stop Israel then Israel has every right to do whatever it wants to. I also feel that if no one is going to stop a nation from commiting genocide then it has every right to. I wouldn't agree that no one should stop them, but if no one is going to then shut up.

Zombieland: Nut up or shut up. International law warriors have yet to nut up.

 

[mheslep]

...I remember doing a mounted patrol in Hevron, they drooped refrigerator on our jeep.

Along with a cry of Allahu Akbar! ?

 

[vertices]

I somewhat cringe when I hear people continually say 'international law'. I'm not entirely sure why people think international law is ACTUALLY 'laws' that need to upheld. It's just an 'idea', one that in my opinion fails miserably.

I tend to think people should be more realist than idealist. And right now the 'realist' in me is saying that if no one is willing to stop Israel then Israel has every right to do whatever it wants to. I also feel that if no one is going to stop a nation from commiting genocide then it has every right to. I wouldn't agree that no one should stop them, but if no one is going to then shut up.

Zombieland: Nut up or shut up. International law warriors have yet to nut up.

I mentioned International Law once in a very specific context - the whole world thinks Israel is wrong in continuing to expropriate land from the Palestinians (the land grabs go way beyond the internationally recognised 1967 'green line') and displace people from their homes.

I wasn't actually discussing the merits of it but because you want me to(!), these are two pennies:

I kind of disagree with your logic that because IL can't be enforced, this renders it useless (this is essentially what you're saying right?). Yes it is a mere 'idea' but it is one that's incredibly powerful.

In game theory you have a situation called the prisoners dilemma which stipulates that you have a lot to lose if you don't play by the rules. In the case of the 'players' of the game being human beings, the state can perhaps mete out punishment to the cheaters (eg. people being fined for speeding).

When the players are nation states, there is no agent to keep them in check as such. However, the damage to nasty state's 'reputation' is a stern form of punishment. Israel is fast becoming a pariah state; it has already lost Turkey as an ally and even the US is beginning to see it as a liability.

 

[mheslep]

- the whole world thinks

When will folks finally stop posting on behalf of the whole world? It's ridiculous.

 

[Evo]

I mentioned International Law once in a very specific context - the whole world thinks Israel is wrong in continuing to expropriate land from the Palestinians (the land grabs go way beyond the internationally recognised 1967 'green line') and displace people from their homes.

No, only a tiny fragment think that. And it's not hard to guess who those are.

 

[vertices]

No, only a tiny fragment think that. And it's not hard to guess who those are.

I have to go to bed now, but yes sorry when I said the "whole world", what I meant was the "whole world minus Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Tuvalu and Nauru". I'm sorry if I have offended anyone from these countries

See: http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/ga10791.doc.htm. Scroll down to Annex IV (UN Vote on Peaceful Settlement - ie. the resolution that calls for a two-state settlement based on the June 1967 border)

The resolution itself can be found here:

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/cd358b22995a4b078525767e006ac786?OpenDocument

 

[Evo]

I have to go to bed now, but yes sorry when I said the "whole world", what I meant was the "whole world minus Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Tuvalu and Nauru". I'm sorry if I have offended anyone from these countries

See: http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/ga10791.doc.htm. Scroll down to Annex IV (UN Vote on Peaceful Settlement - ie. the resolution that calls for a two-state settlement based on the June 1967 border)

The resolution itself can be found here:

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/cd358b22995a4b078525767e006ac786?OpenDocument

The UN is not viewed favorably by many.

 

[zomgwtf]

The UN is not viewed favorably by many.

me included! *raises hand*

 

[estro]

...
I have to go to bed now, but yes sorry when I said the "whole world", what I meant was the "whole world minus Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Tuvalu and Nauru". I'm sorry if I have offended anyone from these countries
...

I believe you forgot a couple of countries or two...

I mentioned International Law once in a very specific context - the whole world thinks Israel is wrong in continuing to expropriate land from the Palestinians (the land grabs go way beyond the internationally recognised 1967 'green line') and displace people from their homes.

Can you be specific? What lands?
I believe we can make this interesting...

 

[vertices]

The UN is not viewed favorably by many.

Did you read the Annex 4?

The question isn't about how favourably UN is seen - it is about how the world voted in a modest resolution calling on Israel not to encroach and build settlements on land that is not their's.

BTW Evo where do you get your facts from (genuine question)? Other than the US and Israel, can you name me one democratic state that has ever been consistently against the UN on record? (I'd be interested to know).

 

[vertices]

Can you be specific? What lands?
I believe we can make this interesting...

I am primarily talking about East Jerusalem (although land grabs may well be occurring in other WB areas, but I don't know about them)

Take the separation wall - to Israel I'm sure it is seen as a means of security, but to Palestinians it is an apartheid wall which cruelly and ruthlessly snakes through Palestinian land. As an Israeli you cannot see this, but do you have an idea how much damage and distress it causes to ordinary Palestinians? This is an example of what I way saying about both sides being unable to comprehend the misery felt by the other..

 

[zomgwtf]

Did you read the Annex 4?

The question isn't about how favourably UN is seen - it is about how the world voted in a modest resolution calling on Israel not to encroach and build settlements on land that is not their's.

BTW Evo where do you get your facts from (genuine question)? Other than the US and Israel, can you name me one democratic state that has ever been consistently against the UN on record? (I'd be interested to know).

It's become a joke and I think all the developed nations recognize that. Have you ever heard of the 'League of Nations'. Yet another fail.

It doesn't matter what the governments say in these meetings, their foreign policy matters and what their citizens say. I can tell you that a lot of Canadians don't care about the UN or "International Laws" and I can say that most Americans don't care either. The Americans aren't surprising considering how much money they fork out. A lot of European countries don't care for it anymore. I'd say NATO is a better option.

The only countries that really 'embrace' the UN idea or International Laws idea are the small useless countries of the world. Normally they embrace it just to take advantage of it. "LOL International Law SAYS SO!". How many criminals has USA given up according to International Law?

 

[estro]

I am primarily talking about East Jerusalem (although land grabs may well be occurring in other WB areas, but I don't know about them)

Jerusalem is a Jewish capital since ancient times, and will be such forever.

Take the separation wall - to Israel I'm sure it is seen as a means of security, but to Palestinians it is an apartheid wall which cruelly and ruthlessly snakes through Palestinian land. As an Israeli you cannot see this, but do you have an idea how much damage and distress it causes to ordinary Palestinians? This is an example of what I way saying about both sides being unable to comprehend the misery felt by the other..

The wall in on our territory [67, you mentioned before?], are you sure you know what you talking about?

 

[OmCheeto]

...

Take the separation wall - to Israel I'm sure it is seen as a means of security, but to Palestinians it is an apartheid wall which cruelly and ruthlessly snakes through Palestinian land. As an Israeli you cannot see this, but do you have an idea how much damage and distress it causes to ordinary Palestinians? This is an example of what I way saying about both sides being unable to comprehend the misery felt by the other..

Oh! We've got those here in America also. We call them fences. They are everywhere. I've never quite seen them as cruel or ruthless, just necessary devices. Kind of like having a door on the bathroom, to keep people out while you are pooping.

One thing we don't have to do though is make them out of steel and extend them many meters underground, like the Egyptian fence does.

Wait a minute. What does this have to do with financial aid to Israel? Are the walls funded by other countries?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Jerusalem is a Jewish capital since ancient times, and will be such forever.

It's also been a holy city of Islam for 1500 years.

 

[estro]

...
Wait a minute. What does this have to do with financial aid to Israel? Are the walls funded by other countries?

No, we just having discussion on some other interesting points=)
So you are aware of historic events, now you just have to be aware of the timeline involving these events.

It's also been a holy city of Islam for 1500 years.

Oh, really? What is your points? The Islam is little bit late on making Jerusalem holy for them. [By another 1500 years]

The oldest part of the city, the City of David was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making it one of the oldest cities in the world. Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism and has been the spiritual center of the Jewish people since c. 1000 BCE, when David the King of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel, and his son Solomon commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.

The al-Aqsa Mosque was originally a small prayer house built by the Rashidun caliph Umar, but was rebuilt and expanded by the Ummayad caliph Abd al-Malik and finished by his son al-Walid in 705 CE.

- Wikipedia.

1. Al-Aqsa was build on the ruins of Jewish most sacred temple.

2. Jerusalem was build by the Jews, and destroyed many times by others, including the Muslims.

0. (Before anything else). I advise you to learn some history before making chichi statements. PM me and I happily advise some good books on the topic. This way the opinionated kid will transform to the knowing kid.