News Why is the security of Israel so important to the United States

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm acknowledging Russ's claim in my question. Again, I'm curious to know working to create a balance of power in the region which would necessitate securing permanent boarders could be considered anything but more conducive to stability in the region in comparison to our current backing of Israel as they expand their colonization of the West Bank?

I can't say that it's an entirely logical position. There is some logic in the idea that the US can hold the "leash" for Isreal and try to keep it out of trouble. Much of the motivation to do this is just as selfserving as it is for promotion of stability in the region, which is likely a major element in its simultaneous destabilizing effect. Its sort of a catch 22. So long as the US works with Isreal the other nations in the area will be less willing to work diplomatically with the US. But if the US were to stop working with Isreal to work with the other nations its quite possible that all bets will be off on keeping Isreal at bey.

 

[quadraphonics]

So long as the US works with Isreal the other nations in the area will be less willing to work diplomatically with the US. But if the US were to stop working with Isreal to work with the other nations its quite possible that all bets will be off on keeping Isreal at bey.

We should also keep in mind that the US did originally try to strike a more balanced (or, even, pro-Arab) stance, to the extent of undermining not only Israel, but also France and the UK, in the Suez Crisis. Such an approach did not yield the desired cooperation from the Arab states, who instead jumped into bed with the Soviets, leaving a very bitter taste in America's mouth. Part of the calculus now seems to be the assumption that the Arab states are too politically fragile and disfunctional to make worthwhile diplomatic partners, whereas Israel is not, and that one gains more leverage over the Arab states by keeping Israel on-side anyway.

 

[mheslep]

Before WWII, there was not really a Jewish state but an enclave under the British Mandate (1920–1948). Before that it was a territory under rule of Ottomans, Egyptians or other Arabic group. Immigration of Jews (in large numbers) from Europe would have been virtually impossible prior to WWII given the politics of the 19th and 20th centuries...

You are right. It was a mistake for me to call the Jewish enclave a state when it was not a state...

Certainly there was a Jewish state in Palestine before the Middle Ages, on and off up until, say, 70AD and the Roman destruction of the temple.

 

[mjolnir80]

in laymans terms Israel is Americas strongest military base in the middle east
also IMHO jewish people are some of the wealthiest in the world (yes this is kind of stereotypical but its true) and they control many of the worlds biggest companies. America wants to have good relations with these people by seeming to support their "homeland"

and the only reason politicians are saying that iran is a threat is because they are planning on changing the currency which they use for international transactions from american dollars to euros
this change will cause the american dollar to drop significantly. its not a military threat its a financial threat

 

[sketchtrack]

Maybe It is a lot to do with the Freemasons. They have a history that traces back to Israel, and they are said to have a considerable amount of power not only in the U.S., but world wide.

 

[wildman]

and the only reason politicians are saying that iran is a threat is because they are planning on changing the currency which they use for international transactions from american dollars to euros
this change will cause the american dollar to drop significantly. its not a military threat its a financial threat

There are theories that the invasion of Iraq had something to do with that also. Basically the US Government is trying to prop up the dollar with military action. Unfortunately, it eventually will not work no matter what we do. We have moved our industry offshore which is causing the current accounts deficit to balloon. Along with our dependence on foreign oil, this will eventually cause the dollar to collapse.

As a wag once said: "Off shoring results in lower prices... for a while!". (Then the dollar collapses and everything becomes very expensive forever).

 

[Astronuc]

Maybe It is a lot to do with the Freemasons. They have a history that traces back to Israel, and they are said to have a considerable amount of power not only in the U.S., but world wide.

Somewhat inaccurate!

They were stonemasons who built castles and cathedrals in England and Scotland. Because of the inherent danger of their work, many stonemasons formed local organizations, called lodges, to take care of sick and injured members as well as the widows and orphans of those who were killed on the job. The masons also used the lodges as places to meet, receive their pay, plan their work, train new apprentices, and socialize.

In 1717, the first Grand Lodge was established in London. Within the next two decades, English Freemasonry spread throughout Europe and eventually made its way to the American colonies. The first lodge organized on American soil appeared in Philadelphia around 1730. By 1733 a Provincial Grand Lodge was organized in Boston. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, and other founding fathers were among the first Masons in America. Of the 39 men who signed the U.S. Constitution, 13 were Masons.

http://www.freemason.org/about_us/history.php

Freemasons have as much common history with Israel as any person who is not a Freemason.

 

[Astronuc]

Just a reminder - https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=113181

Please refrain from innuendo and stereotyping or otherwise gross generalizations of groups of people, otherwise posts will be deleted and/or the thread will be locked.

 

[sketchtrack]

Just a reminder - https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=113181

Please refrain from innuendo and stereotyping or otherwise gross generalizations of groups of people, otherwise posts will be deleted and/or the thread will be locked.

"The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (Latin: Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici), commonly known as the Knights Templar or the Order of the Temple (French: Ordre du Temple or Templiers), were among the most famous of the Western Christian military orders.[3] The organization existed for approximately two centuries in the Middle Ages. It was founded in the aftermath of the First Crusade of 1096, its original purpose to ensure the safety of the many Christians who made the pilgrimage to Jerusalem after its conquest.
Officially endorsed by the Roman Catholic Church around 1129, the Order became a favored charity throughout Christendom and grew rapidly in membership and power. Templar knights, in their distinctive white mantles quartered by a red cross, were among the most skilled fighting units of the Crusades.[4] Non-combatant members of the Order managed a large economic infrastructure throughout Christendom, innovating financial techniques that were an early form of banking,[5][6] and building many fortifications throughout the Mediterranean and the Holy Land.
The Templars' success was tied closely to the Crusades; when the Holy Land was lost, support for the Order faded. Rumors about the Templars' secret initiation ceremony created mistrust, and King Philip IV of France, deeply in debt to the Order, began pressuring Pope Clement V to take action against the Order. In 1307, many of the Order's members in France were arrested, tortured into giving false confessions, and then burned at the stake.[7] In 1312, Pope Clement, under continuing pressure from King Philip, disbanded the Order. The abrupt disappearance of a major part of the societal infrastructure gave rise to speculation and legends, which have kept the "Templar" name alive into the modern day."

I guess the connection between Nights Templar and Freemasonry isn't fact, and I watch to much history channel.

 

[Astronuc]

"The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (Latin: Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici), commonly known as the Knights Templar or the Order of the Temple (French: Ordre du Temple or Templiers), were among the most famous of the Western Christian military orders.[3] The organization existed for approximately two centuries in the Middle Ages. It was founded in the aftermath of the First Crusade of 1096, its original purpose to ensure the safety of the many Christians who made the pilgrimage to Jerusalem after its conquest.
Officially endorsed by the Roman Catholic Church around 1129, the Order became a favored charity throughout Christendom and grew rapidly in membership and power. Templar knights, in their distinctive white mantles quartered by a red cross, were among the most skilled fighting units of the Crusades.[4] Non-combatant members of the Order managed a large economic infrastructure throughout Christendom, innovating financial techniques that were an early form of banking,[5][6] and building many fortifications throughout the Mediterranean and the Holy Land.
The Templars' success was tied closely to the Crusades; when the Holy Land was lost, support for the Order faded. Rumors about the Templars' secret initiation ceremony created mistrust, and King Philip IV of France, deeply in debt to the Order, began pressuring Pope Clement V to take action against the Order. In 1307, many of the Order's members in France were arrested, tortured into giving false confessions, and then burned at the stake.[7] In 1312, Pope Clement, under continuing pressure from King Philip, disbanded the Order. The abrupt disappearance of a major part of the societal infrastructure gave rise to speculation and legends, which have kept the "Templar" name alive into the modern day."

To simplify the story without attempting to elaborate or quote various researchers, all we know is that when Templary emerged in the early 1700's it was a part of Freemasonry. THERE IS NO PROOF OF DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN THE ANCIENT ORDER AND THE MODERN ORDER KNOWN TO DAY AS THE KNIGHTS TEMPLAR.

http://www.knightstemplar.org/faq1.html#connection

I guess the connection between Nights Templar and Freemasonry isn't fact, and I watch to much history channel.

There is no apparent connection between the modern day Knights Templar and the older order, which was established in 1096 - except perhaps the name.

When the original Knights Templar was formed - there was no kingdom or state of Israel from 125 CE on. It had been part of the Roman and Byzantine empires as well as various caliphates of different Muslim groups.

 

[sketchtrack]

I'm not against masonry, and I didn't mean to misinform anyone. Maybe the two do have no connection, but still, the 13th degree of masonry is called "The Royal Arch of Solomon", and the 15th is called "Prince of Jerusalem"

I can gather that Jerusalem is a sacred place to masons.

 

[quadraphonics]

France is one of the most pro-palestinian country in Europe.

Ignoring the implication that one cannot be both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian, it bears mentioning that for the formative years of Israel's history as an independent state, France was their best friend and patron. There would be no Israel if France had not pushed so hard for it, and Israel's relations with the Arab states might be markedly different if France hadn't used Israel as a launching pad for attacks on Egypt aimed at controlling the Suez Canal. France and the UK spent most of the 20th century royally screwing up the entire Middle East in the name of colonial glory, and then dumped it into America's lap when it all blew up in their faces. Now they sit around complaining about how evil Israel is, and how bad America is for dealing with the situation (*cough* Vietnam *cough*), apparently oblivious to their leading roles in creating the situation, and the fact that Israel has been much more peaceful and restrained under American patronage than it ever was under Franco-British patronage, who literaly used Israel as a military base for imperialist aggression.

Also, when it comes to respect for one's neighbors, I'd spend a few minutes thinking about Algeria before casting stones at the United States.

 

[Coldcall]

Whats interesting is that it was not always like this. Initially the US did not really support Israel and instead countries like France were far more supportive. Its really when the cold war spread to the Middle East that the US started funding and supporting Israel. If one recalls 67 was not just about the Middle East but was about the big powers (US & Soviet Union) manipulating their proxies, such as Israel, Egypt, Syria etc..

So today's strong US support for Israel stems from the cold war where Israel was the most loyal, democratic ally in the region. If anything, Al Qaeda and the new "Islamist" form of terrorism has in fact only tightened that Israeli/US relationship from a military-security perspective, as Israel has been combatting Palestinian miltants/terrorists for much longer.

Other contributing factors are a strong US Jewish lobby, the US Christian right, and no doubt some feeling of protection of Jews re the Holocaust.

So its a pretty rational relationship when people lose the "jewish cabal" stereoyped concepts which normally invade these sorts of discussions.

 

[Evo]

There seems that there is nothing left to discuss, so thread closed.