Did I Vote for GWB for the Right Reasons?

[Townsend]

Try this link...
http://onfinite.com/libraries/126618/4ee.jpg

or this one

http://onfinite.com/libraries/126621/4ee.jpg

 

[Dayle Record]

There is a fallacy in thinking that because you work for the government, or the defense industry, you are a patriot, or you have more value to society, or you hold a higher worth. I live in a state where a lot of people graduate from high school and go to work next door on the base. They need jobs. It is a job. The job doesn't pay very well, at the lower grades, and included in the payment, is the mythology of hyper-patriotism. There is no bigger socialist system in the world, than the US Military, and Government. While you strike out at socialistic practices, you luxuriate in the fruit of them. Your education, medical, and retirement are all paid for courtesy of the American People, the American people are great employers, aren't they?

The people whose lives are on the line have my highest regard. To me, there is no easy collateral loss. We are not a Democracy, but I was raised to believe in the principles of Democracy, being that all of us are born equal, and have an equal stake in the building and perpetuation of our nation.

 

[Townsend]

There is a fallacy in thinking that because you work for the government, or the defense industry, you are a patriot, or you have more value to society, or you hold a higher worth. I live in a state where a lot of people graduate from high school and go to work next door on the base. They need jobs. It is a job. The job doesn't pay very well, at the lower grades, and included in the payment, is the mythology of hyper-patriotism. There is no bigger socialist system in the world, than the US Military, and Government. While you strike out at socialistic practices, you luxuriate in the fruit of them. Your education, medical, and retirement are all paid for courtesy of the American People, the American people are great employers, aren't they?

The people whose lives are on the line have my highest regard. To me, there is no easy collateral loss. We are not a Democracy, but I was raised to believe in the principles of Democracy, being that all of us are born equal, and have an equal stake in the building and perpetuation of our nation.

I feel like I cannot win with you people...If I was never in the military then what grounds would I have to support the GWB and the Iraq war? But if I was in the military I for some strange reason cannot support capitalism.

Whatever people! You give someone an argument that he cannot win because you are challenging his actions and then when he tries to defend himself you call him illogical. I am not illogical for defending my actions but it is illogical to bring my actionsl into question.

I am defending myself here and no longer defending my points. I should not have to defend myself to defend my policy views. It is not logical to challenge someone’s points by challenging their actions. But in so much as anyone here would like to go down that road I will because I do believe in living my life within the same moral framework as my philosophy.

Regards

 

[Townsend]

"...you luxuriate in the fruit of them..."

If you think the military is easy, if you think my service has not put me in harms way and if think I or a lot of the rest of military are over paid for the work we do then I am certain that you do not know anyone in the military who has ever had to deploy.

Regards

 

[russ_watters]

This probably belongs in another thread in another forum but since some people want to question my service I think now is a good time to go through the old photo album. This is going to be great...

I am scanning pictures right now...

Don't bother. Photos can be faked and people who don't want to believe you won't, no matter what you post. You shouldn't care about what people like that think.

tumor, stop with the personal attacks right now.

I'm also a former (but not future) sailor and I salute you as well.

 

[Dayle Record]

I found this little piece today, it purports to be a letter from a US soldier, that is soon to redeploy to Iraq. It purports, like everything else in here, in many ways. I thought this was so the flip side of this that I would post it. I saw many images on TV just before the election of guys in the field, in Iraq, stating that they wanted out, and they thought the John Kerry, would get them out. Anyway, here is that letter.
**********************************************

4 more years America
If you voted for Bush, didn't vote, or voted no on gay marriage, I hope you get drafted.
I hope they stick you in my unit, and you go with me to Iraq when my unit goes back in September. I will laugh when you see what soldiers in that country face on a daily basis. I hope you work with gay soldiers too. I did. One of them saved my life. Think he shouldn't have the right to get married? F**k you. He fought just as hard as I did and on most days, did his job better than me. Don't tell me gays don't have the same rights you do.
Think the war in Iraq is a good thing? I'll donate my M-16 to you and you can go in my place.

 

[BobG]

There is a fallacy in thinking that because you work for the government, or the defense industry, you are a patriot, or you have more value to society, or you hold a higher worth... While you strike out at socialistic practices, you luxuriate in the fruit of them. Your education, medical, and retirement are all paid for courtesy of the American People, the American people are great employers, aren't they?

Your first post is partially true, but you don't understand why. I would imagine that very few are patriotic enough to spend 20 years living in misery, but just about no one stays in the military for the money.

New recruits, as poorly paid as they are, probably make more money in the military than could in civilian life because they have no training. Still, most of them are paid little enough that a significant portion of that education money comes in the form of Pell grants, which are available to both civilians and military. There are very few jobs in the military where civilian pay would be lower as a career, even with the medical and retirement benefits. For your more technical enlisted jobs, the military throws in re-enlistment bonuses, but that is usually only enough that a person doesn't feel like a total fool for doing something they love to do, anyway.

More important is the environment. While patriotism plays at least a part of that, it's hanging around with folks that have similar values that provides the more significant motivation. Your second post supports that - even those that don't like military life learn teamwork. People in the military seem to care for each other a little more than your typical neighbors care for each other.

Anyway, here is that letter.
**********************************************

4 more years America
If you voted for Bush, didn't vote, or voted no on gay marriage, I hope you get drafted.
I hope they stick you in my unit, and you go with me to Iraq when my unit goes back in September. I will laugh when you see what soldiers in that country face on a daily basis. I hope you work with gay soldiers too. I did. One of them saved my life. Think he shouldn't have the right to get married? F**k you. He fought just as hard as I did and on most days, did his job better than me. Don't tell me gays don't have the same rights you do.
Think the war in Iraq is a good thing? I'll donate my M-16 to you and you can go in my place.

I had one of those technical jobs, so I never went anywhere dangerous. For me, hardship was being away from my family - I had to go all alone to places I probably would have never had the chance to see, otherwise - Alaska, Italy - not much of a hardship, so I'm not going to criticize that soldier's feelings.

A lot of people enter the military for a chance to contribute to their country, education, adventure, etc. and then find it isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I, and most others, were always pretty tolerant of the first termers that complained about how things turned out for them. This guy has done something good for his country and he has the right to complain.

I wouldn't say your letter reflects the attitude of your average career military member, though. After four years, you know what military life is like and those that stay in have good personal reasons for doing so. So, if you like, there is no reason for you to feel sympathy for them. There's also no reason for you to put them down either.

 

[tumor]

I only wish that now Bush reinstates military draft! and sons and daughters of Bush supporters are going to be send to Iraq and die or be maimed there!
ONLY that will teach them to think before they cast their votes!

 

[russ_watters]

tumor, Dayle you just don't get it and I honestly don't think there is any way to explain it to you.

It is true that very few people who haven't been in the military really understand it, but that's true of anything that people haven't tried. But it is willful ignorance to assume that people are lying when they aren't telling you what you want to believe.

I can tell you (and I'm sure Townsend can as well) stories of people I knew who were unhappy with their situation and didn't just write letters but acted out. It happens all the time and it has nothing to do with war (if anything, war increases morale).

There are people who signed up for the military partially/largely out of patriotism, and they are quite willing to give their lives to defend their country.

You're looking for hypocrisy where none exists.

 

[kat]

My brother re-upped after having been out of the service for quite some time. In fact his origional recall date had ended 2 months before the first gulf war preperations started. I was angry at him at first (he has two young children and a beautiful dutch wife) but when he explained that he felt it was his obligation to give back to his country and that he felt the armed services need older experienced men to lead the younger men, I understood how much it meant to him and I support him in that. So, you can keep believing that men and women are in Iraq against their will or you can understand that many men and women feel strongly that being in the armed services at this time is the right and just thing to do.
I also can't understnd the mindset that says "we lost" I hope now young men and women get sent over there to die. Maybe that's one reason that your side lost..Americans who had strong moral convictions couldn't stand seeing the small petty populace rising to the top...jest a little something to think about.

 

[franznietzsche]

Socialism does not say that whatever you do you will not be held responsible for your actions, it does not say you can live your life as a bum and live comfortably by support of the government. There are many drug addicts in my town who are living on the street because the government refuses to support people who won't do anything. They don't even get full medical treatment if they need it. They will be supported by the Government under certain conditions and if they go through rehab but not otherwise. Unemployed people will not be supported by the government if they can't get jobs (They are now, but we're going through a small recession and its hard to get a job - this will change soon).

FYI

THEN ITS NOT SOCIALISM.

End of story.

 

[nbo10]

http://www.thegreenside.com/Home.asp?SID=4170&N=Home

I found this site the other day. It tells a pretty different story from what you hear from the MSM about the soldiers over in Iraq.

 

[tumor]

About what kind of morals are we talking here? Morals to kill innocent civillians?Who the hell are we kidding here?

PS. Last True American Patriots died in the War of Independence.

 

[Lyuokdea]

PS. Last True American Patriots died in the War of Independence.

Are you seriously trying to say that we shouldn't have gotten involved in World War II? So if Country X bombs our shipyard and kills thousands of our soldiers, it is immoral and unjustifiable for us to defend ourselves, but, if our own country is taxing us too much and telling us not to kill Indians, we should be free to start a Civil War? From almost any objective standpoint, World War II was much more justifiable than the Revolutionary War.

~Lyuokdea

 

[russ_watters]

If you don't even accept that they exist, how are you ever going to get them to vote for a democrat? No wonder the party has only had one decisively elected president in 50 years.

 

[tumor]

Are you seriously trying to say that we shouldn't have gotten involved in World War II? So if Country X bombs our shipyard and kills thousands of our soldiers, it is immoral and unjustifiable for us to defend ourselves, but, if our own country is taxing us too much and telling us not to kill Indians, we should be free to start a Civil War? From almost any objective standpoint, World War II was much more justifiable than the Revolutionary War.

~Lyuokdea

WW2 and American involvement is v. complex issue,but we could have avoided it completelly.
Remember that USA and other western countries started Asian colonization by hummiliating Chinese people and all other Asians,Japan was almost colonized.
But years before WW2, USA was very aggressive in capturing most valuable assets in Asia(oil fields)right on the door steeps of Japan.Japan having at that time also colonnial interests felt some insecurity.Having big military Japanese felt this area should be under their conntrol or at least some influence(oil started to be strategic asset) USA pursuing politics of expansionism sooner or later was asking for trouble ,war was inevitable.


PS I'm thankfull for never to learn USA history from official dep. of education books.Otherwise I also would think naively that USA is shining light unto the World, innocent and peacfull nation.

 

[franznietzsche]

WW2 and American involvement is v. complex issue,but we could have avoided it completelly.
Remember that USA and other western countries started Asian colonization by hummiliating Chinese people and all other Asians,Japan was almost colonized.
But years before WW2, USA was very aggressive in capturing most valuable assets in Asia(oil fields)right on the door steeps of Japan.Japan having at that time also colonnial interests felt some insecurity.Having big military Japanese felt this area should be under their conntrol or at least some influence(oil started to be strategic asset) USA pursuing politics of expansionism sooner or later was asking for trouble ,war was inevitable.


PS I'm thankfull for never to learn USA history from official dep. of education books.Otherwise I also would think naively that USA is shining light unto the World, innocent and peacfull nation.

I read those books, but i don't remember learning that.

Of course we're an imperialist power. Of course we're out for our own self-interest. How naive do you have to be to think otherwise.

 

[Smurf]

Japan was coerced into attacking America by Roosevelt who had been imposing many demands and regulations on them, Japan either had to go to war with America or its economy would collapse, Roosevelt knew this, both sides knew wae was inevitable (which is what roosevelt wanted - he'd been trying for ages to get congress to agree to go to war in Europe).

 

[franznietzsche]

Japan was coerced into attacking America by Roosevelt who had been imposing many demands and regulations on them, Japan either had to go to war with America or its economy would collapse, Roosevelt knew this, both sides knew wae was inevitable (which is what roosevelt wanted - he'd been trying for ages to get congress to agree to go to war in Europe).

Coerced...yes...that's right. Thank god you can't vote here.

 

[Smurf]

Because my voting would count a whole 0.001% of the whole election, that is if it wasn't a rigged 2 party system run by Exxon.

 

[franznietzsche]

Ah, the disenfranchisment of the individual voter. I bask in its power...Nexxon?

 

[Smurf]

Thats Exxon, sorry
http://www.disinfotainmenttoday.com/exxon.jpg

It's kinda like that

 

[franznietzsche]

His name IS Vice President Haliburton, dag gummit!

 

[TENYEARS]

I think it is very important that as a society we agree that understanding is not forgiveness! And this is where I think a lot of you and I differ on opinions.

Just to be clear:

Innate causation is not nor will it ever be a worthy excuse for someone’s actions!

I do believe in having a social safety net to help people when they are down but that is not the same as supporting a family of three for 15 or more years. For that there is no excuse. I believe in helping people with education but not the same way you do. I believe in helping people deal with their problems in life but I do not believe giving them a free ride as I think think this is nothing more than enabling them to continue antisocial behavior.

People need to take responsibility for there actions and the people who are responsible should not be punished for being responsible. Taxing people for being successful is socialism and unfair and detrimental to the well being of society overall. That is why I reject Kerry...and no I do not like Bush but there is no way the Libertarian party could win so what choices do I have? Neither the democrats nor the republicans stand for what I believe in as I believe in more personal freedoms and support the idea of letting gay people have the same rights as heterosexual people. But voting for Kerry would not have changed society’s perception on this, but it would have increased unfair taxes that would have gone to social projects that would have failed.

Look, if you want to support socialism fine, I can understand and respect that. So why is it that you people cannot understand and accept who I support or who someone else supports? I think it is funny that liberals want to FORCE their belief system down people’s throats. I will tell you now, the more you push the harder you will be pushed back! And I can tell you also that I do not believe in giving my opponents a fair fight so if you believe that it’s just a pure numbers game that will eventually turn around you will lose every time. As minority groups gain wealth they will want to protect it and begin to see that the socialist perspective is all about the redistribution of wealth from who ever the haves are, to who ever the have nots are that that time.


Regards

You fool not that Mr Kerry was a wonderful choice, the president of the United States has comprimised the soul of america. He knew of 9/11. He was not the archietect, but he knew. The second the election was stolen from Gore and it was stolen. This is the forum of the blind, country of the blind world of the blind. You take what is easy you go with the toxic flow. You have no choice if you know it or not but the law of causality the law of physics is still intact. Every act has a price and that price will be paid. FOOlS All of you. Dam you dam you all for your unconciousness. Dam the fact that I must see and be a witness to it. IDIOT. All of you. It is not about the so called human selected, it is about the pushiing a lever of unconciousness towards a bitter end. I can and do see the future you fool. America will pay a teribble price for it's indescriessions. To make this new world order, for power, for money. Would the world be better off without humans just trees and animals which live in a more balanced perpetuation. Would it be that there be no intelligence left. lol lol lol lol lol lol

All that would be left would be intelligence. Fools. Humans are less than nothing for the madness they do. There is only one way out and dieing is not it. Lol You fools.

 

[Townsend]

You fool not that Mr Kerry was a wonderful choice, the president of the United States has comprimised the soul of america. He knew of 9/11. He was not the archietect, but he knew. The second the election was stolen from Gore and it was stolen. This is the forum of the blind, country of the blind world of the blind. You take what is easy you go with the toxic flow. You have no choice if you know it or not but the law of causality the law of physics is still intact. Every act has a price and that price will be paid. FOOlS All of you. Dam you dam you all for your unconciousness. Dam the fact that I must see and be a witness to it. IDIOT. All of you. It is not about the so called human selected, it is about the pushiing a lever of unconciousness towards a bitter end. I can and do see the future you fool. America will pay a teribble price for it's indescriessions. To make this new world order, for power, for money. Would the world be better off without humans just trees and animals which live in a more balanced perpetuation. Would it be that there be no intelligence left. lol lol lol lol lol lol

All that would be left would be intelligence. Fools. Humans are less than nothing for the madness they do. There is only one way out and dieing is not it. Lol You fools.

This is the reason that this forum needs an ignore feature. I have wasted too much time on this kind of thing and do not wish to waste future time reading thoughtless diatribe. Its too bad, really, cause there are a lot of people here who actually have some very good and interesting points. The problem is that for every few good post there is one like this and it really ruins everything else.

Regards

 

[TENYEARS]

Do you want speach or do you want reality? You voted for a man that allowed three thousand people to die for a greater cause in his warped mind. I was there that day, I witnessed the event 8 years prior in a vision. You have no idea you fool. You voted for a man who assisted in the death of three thousand people. Yes Yes

Reminds me of something though. An afterschool special over 20 years old. An aswsome one. I posted this on the old forum I think. A sociology teacher got the children together in a group for a common cause. It was an "experimental group". The group grew and all supported the cause. Those who spoke against the group were turned towards it. The group grew large and wide. Then those who spoke against it began to get hurt. There were a few who would not partake. They watched and thought it was wrong. Finally the day came when they were to meet their leader who was to consolidate all of the groups of children across the country. For the teacher told them this was happening in countless schools across the country. They gathered in the school gym and the chanting began where is our leader, or something to that affect. Finally a video began to play and they met their leader. Adolf Hitler. The whole gym burst into massive tears as they cried. And so will be that day for you.

I don't know who you think I am, but I tell you this. I know what I know and there will be few people in your life if any that will equal what I know. Not because others can't but because they don't. Credit or cash very few take the option of a prepayment plan in this day and age.

 

[Lyuokdea]

I was there that day, I witnessed the event 8 years prior in a vision.

In the immortal words of TENYEARS:

lol lol lol lol lol lol

Why then, did you not act to stop it?

 

[TENYEARS]

I did not know it was the towers themselves but I did see many other aspects of what would happen what did happen and my role in it. It all happened as I knew it would. I lived in fear of it for 8 years and it almost made me go off the deep end four years after I had the vision. I don't lie. People are so accustomed to hearing lies, to hearing egoistic fools, hearing people that just want to speak, hearing those that would decieve you for their person gain, you would not know the truth if you tripped over it a thousand times. Would any be interested in truth? No because truth surrounds you and you see it not.