Why is 2L used as the distance in the derivation of 1/3nMc^2 = nRT?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the derivation of the equation 1/3nMc^2 = nRT, specifically focusing on the use of 2L as the distance in the context of calculating average force during molecular collisions with a wall. Participants explore the implications of this choice in relation to momentum change and the concept of average force in kinetic theory.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why 2L is used as the distance, suggesting that the force exerted by a molecule is only relevant during the brief moment of contact with the wall.
  • Others clarify that the time interval considered is for a round trip of the molecule, which justifies the factor of 2 in the distance and momentum change calculations.
  • A participant seeks clarification on how the change in momentum over the distance contributes to the average force, indicating a lack of familiarity with the concept of average force.
  • Another participant explains that the term 'average' is used to account for variations in individual molecular events, emphasizing the importance of averaging over many identical measurements due to the random motion of molecules.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the justification for using 2L in the derivation, with some supporting the reasoning based on average force calculations and others questioning its validity. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the conceptual understanding of average force in this context.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the need to consider the average behavior of a large number of molecules rather than individual events, which introduces complexity in understanding the derivation and the application of average force.

sgstudent
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In the derivation the first step used F=Δmv/t and for t, they used t=2L/v where L is the distance between one end to the other end of the wall.

But I don't understand why we use 2L as the distance. Isn't the force exerted by that molecule only for the very short period where the molecule is in contact with the wall only? For example when we look at a car crash we look at that short moment when the car comes to a stop from an extremely high speed- shouldn't the same be applied?
 
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sgstudent said:
In the derivation the first step used F=Δmv/t and for t, they used t=2L/v where L is the distance between one end to the other end of the wall.

But I don't understand why we use 2L as the distance

actually they calculate average force and the time interval is between two collisions taken as a round trip by a molecule after hitting a wall.
and there is a factor 2 also for the momentum change
F = delta p = 2 m v(x) x delta t and delta t= 2L/v(x)
 
drvrm said:
actually they calculate average force and the time interval is between two collisions taken as a round trip by a molecule after hitting a wall.
and there is a factor 2 also for the momentum change
F = delta p = 2 m v(x) x delta t and delta t= 2L/v(x)
Could you explain why using the change in momentum from one end to the other for the duration need (t) would give us the average force? I have not been exposed to the concept of an average force before so I'm not sure how to use it. Thanks!
 
Last edited:
sgstudent said:
Could you explain why using the change in momentum from one end to the other for the duration need (t) would give us the average force? I have not been exposed to the concept of an average force before so I'm not sure how to use it. Thanks!

i think the term 'average' is used by people if there are variations in 'individual' events but sum /total of the effect carried out can be averaged over a large number of identical measurements/events. due to large number of molecules in random motion inside the container and colliding with each other as well as with the walls of the container ,an observer can think of averaging over the state of motion rather than takinng individual molecules and adding individual characteristic path , motion and impulse transferred to the wall of the enclosure.

in kinetic theory the picture is almost above therefore the average force/average velocity and other terms are being used'
one can visit the following to
get a clear picture;

http://galileoandeinstein.physics.v...dfs/10_1425_web_Lec_31_KineticTheoryGases.pdf
 

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