Why is the Carnot Cycle so Important?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the significance of the Carnot Cycle in thermodynamics, particularly its role in establishing the maximum efficiency of heat engines. Participants explore why the Carnot Cycle is emphasized despite the existence of other reversible processes that could theoretically demonstrate similar efficiency limits.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that all reversible cyclic processes have the same efficiency, described by the formula 1-T2/T1, as demonstrated by the Carnot Cycle.
  • Others question the necessity of the Carnot Cycle's specific path (isothermal and adiabatic processes) for demonstrating maximum efficiency, suggesting that other cycles could also illustrate this point.
  • A participant emphasizes that to create a reversible cycle, heat flow must occur at infinitesimal temperature differences, which aligns with the Carnot Cycle's structure.
  • One participant notes that while the Carnot Cycle represents maximum efficiency, real engines experience losses that prevent them from achieving this efficiency.
  • Another participant mentions that alternative cycles, such as those involving isobaric and isochoric processes, are less efficient and more irreversible compared to the Carnot Cycle.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the importance of the Carnot Cycle compared to other reversible processes. There is no consensus on whether the Carnot Cycle is uniquely important or if other cycles could serve the same purpose in demonstrating efficiency limits.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexities involved in defining reversible processes and the assumptions necessary for establishing efficiency limits. Participants acknowledge the dependence on specific conditions and the implications of irreversibility in practical engines.

SUDOnym
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All reversible cyclic processes (engines) have the same efficiency: 1-T2/T1.

And Carnot demostrated this efficiency with the Carnot Cycle and went on to use this to demonstrate that this was the upper limit for efficiency.

My question is, why is it that there is such importance placed on the Carnot Cycle? ie. since all reversible processes have this same efficiency couldn't we say just take an engine whos path is:

a isobaric b isochoric c isobaric d isochoric a isobaric b isochoric c isobaric d isochoric ...and so on.

and use this engine to also demonstrate that the upper limit is 1-T2/T1? is it simply that with the carnot cycle, which is:

a isotherm b adiabat c isotherm d adiabat a isotherm b adiabat c isotherm d adiabat ... and so on

makes it easy to demonstrate this result?
 
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SUDOnym said:
My question is, why is it that there is such importance placed on the Carnot Cycle? ie. since all reversible processes have this same efficiency couldn't we say just take an engine whos path is:

a isobaric b isochoric c isobaric d isochoric a isobaric b isochoric c isobaric d isochoric ...and so on.

and use this engine to also demonstrate that the upper limit is 1-T2/T1? is it simply that with the carnot cycle, which is:

a isotherm b adiabat c isotherm d adiabat a isotherm b adiabat c isotherm d adiabat ... and so on

makes it easy to demonstrate this result?
In order to create a reversible cycle, all heat flow has to occur at infinitessimal temperature differences. In other words, heat flow from the hot reservoir to the system has to occur with the reservoir and system at the same temperature AND heat flow from the system to the cold reservoir has to occur with the system and cold reservoir at the same temperature. In order to get from the hot temperature to the cold temperature and vice-versa without increasing entropy, the expansions and compressions cannot involve heat flow.

So any reversible cycle must be equivalent to the Carnot cycle: isothermal (expansion), adiabatic (expansion), isothermal (compression), adiabatic (compression).

AM
 
SUDOnym said:
My question is, why is it that there is such importance placed on the Carnot Cycle? ie. since all reversible processes have this same efficiency couldn't we say just take an engine whos path is:

a isobaric b isochoric c isobaric d isochoric a isobaric b isochoric c isobaric d isochoric ...and so on.

this cycle is highly irreversible and much less efficient than carnot's cycle
 

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