Why is the frequency constant when waves pass through an interface?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of why the frequency of waves remains constant when they pass through an interface between different media, while the wavelength changes. Participants explore this concept through various theoretical and intuitive arguments, addressing boundary conditions and the implications for different types of waves, including mechanical and electromagnetic waves.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks a general reason applicable to all wave types for the constancy of frequency at an interface.
  • Another participant asserts that boundary conditions at the interface necessitate the frequencies to be the same.
  • A request for elaboration on the proof of frequency constancy is made, indicating a desire for deeper understanding.
  • One participant presents an intuitive argument involving the counting of wave crests in different media to illustrate the necessity of frequency constancy.
  • A participant introduces a "Null Argument," questioning the expected change in frequency and emphasizing the importance of boundary conditions.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of differing frequencies at the boundary, suggesting that adjacent wave portions would be out of sync, which is deemed impossible.
  • Another participant discusses the time independence of boundary conditions and the synchronous evolution of monochromatic waves as a reason for frequency constancy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints regarding the constancy of frequency at an interface, with some agreeing on the role of boundary conditions while others seek further clarification and proof. The discussion remains unresolved in terms of a definitive explanation or consensus on the underlying principles.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference boundary conditions and phase changes without fully resolving the implications or providing a complete proof. The discussion includes assumptions about wave behavior and the physical mechanisms involved, which are not universally agreed upon.

McLaren Rulez
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What the title says.. I'm looking for a general reason that will apply to everything from waves on a string to EM waves. Why is it that the wavelength is the quantity that changes while the frequency stays the same? Thank you.
 
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The boundary conditions at the interface musst hold for all times.
This requires the two frequencies to be the same.
 
Could you elaborate please? I realize that the boundary conditions must require the frequency to be constant but I want to see a proof for that. Thank you.
 
Here is an intuitive argument.

Imagine that a device calculates crests in the first substance (let's say glass) and a separate device calculates crests in the second substance. Both devices must count the same number of crests(let's say 3 E 10) for if they did not crests would accumulate at the interface which is impossible.

This is equivalent to a boundary condition.
 
There is a sort of Null Argument about this. By how much would you expect the frequency to change - up or down? If you can't think why is should then it won't.
But the boundary conditions is the clincher argument. Right on the boundary between the two media, there would have to be a step change in the phases of the EM fields on either side, which would be continuously changing as one frequency strobed through the other. However would that work?
 
Matisse, your argument is good! I can see it intuitively now. Is it possible to show that this is indeed equivalent to the boundary condition?

sophiecentaur, I'm not sure if this is the kind of Null Argument you mentioned. After all, letting it change is a weaker condition that asking it to stay constant right? Regarding the second part of your post, could you explain why there has to be a phase change in the field on either side of the boundary?

Thank you both for the help.
 
If the oscillation on both sides of the boundary don't have the same frequency, then at some point in time and at some locations along the boundary, you must have situations such as: the wave immediately next to one side of the boundary is 1/8 of the way through a cycle and moving "upwards", while the immediately adjacent portion of the wave on the other side of the boundary is 5/8 of the way through a cycle and moving "downwards."

This is impossible because adjacent portions of any wave are tied together by some physical mechanism which allows the wave to exist in the first place. With water waves and sound waves, it's intermolecular forces. With electromagnetic waves, it's the interrelationship of the electric and magnetic fields via Maxwell's equations.
 
Thank you very much, everyone!
 
Boundary conditions, most of the time, is independent of time. And monochromatic waves evolve proportional to [tex]e^{-i\omega t}[/tex]. Thus for the boundary conditions to be met, the time evolution must be synchronous, or boundary conditions will be met at one time, and not other times.
 
  • #10
McLaren Rulez said:
Matisse, your argument is good! I can see it intuitively now. Is it possible to show that this is indeed equivalent to the boundary condition?

sophiecentaur, I'm not sure if this is the kind of Null Argument you mentioned. After all, letting it change is a weaker condition that asking it to stay constant right? Regarding the second part of your post, could you explain why there has to be a phase change in the field on either side of the boundary?

Thank you both for the help.

jtbell explained what I meant about the phase.
and, yes, the easiest condition would have to be the frequency staying the same or else you'd have to involve some incredible mechanism (not involving energy being added, too) to make anything else happen.
 

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