Why is the integral of a(x) different from the integral of a(t)?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the relationship between acceleration as a function of position and time, specifically in the context of a physics problem involving a force applied to a box on a frictionless surface. The original poster is exploring why their initial attempt at integrating acceleration with respect to position yields different results compared to integrating with respect to time.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the integration of acceleration as a function of position versus time, questioning the implications of these different approaches on the resulting velocity. There is exploration of the mathematical errors in the original poster's calculations and the conceptual understanding of work and kinetic energy.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging in clarifying the concepts of integration in relation to physical quantities. Some have pointed out potential mathematical errors in the original calculations, while others emphasize the importance of understanding the physical meaning behind the integration process. There is a recognition of the confusion surrounding the integration of acceleration as a function of different variables.

Contextual Notes

The original poster is working within the constraints of a homework problem, which may limit the information provided and the assumptions that can be made. There is an ongoing discussion about the correct interpretation of acceleration in terms of its dependence on position versus time.

Elias Waranoi
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Hello! First time poster, please treat me well! :wink: I've already solved the problem below on my second attempt with the help of kinetic energy but I want to know why my first attempt gives a wrong answer.

1. Homework Statement

A force in the +x-direction with magnitude F(x) = 18.0 N - (0.530 N/m)x is applied to a 6.00-kg box that is sitting on the horizontal, frictionless surface of a frozen lake. F(x) is the only horizontal force on the box. If the box is initially at rest at x = 0, what is its speed after it has traveled 14.0 m?

Homework Equations


a = F/m

The Attempt at a Solution


F(x) = 18.0 - 0.530x =>
a(x) = 18.0/m - 0.530x/m =>
Integrate =>
v(x) = 18.0x/m - 0.530x2/2m = 3x - 0.530/12 x2
v(14) = 33.3

Why is this incorrect? I'm guessing that the integral of a(t) is velocity but the integral of a(x) is something else.
 
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Welcome to the PF :smile:

Elias Waranoi said:
a(x) = 18.0/m - 0.530x/m =>
Integrate =>
v(x) = 18.0x/m - 0.530x2/m
When you integrate x, you don't just get x^2... :smile:
 
berkeman said:
Welcome to the PF :smile:When you integrate x, you don't just get x^2... :smile:
Oops, I edited my question. The result is still wrong though.
 
Elias Waranoi said:
v(x) = 18.0x/m - 0.530x2/2m = 3x - 0.530/12 x2
v(14) = 33.3
Looks like it's just a math error when you plug in x=14. Try again?
 
berkeman said:
Looks like it's just a math error when you plug in x=14. Try again?
I typed this into wolfram alpha "3*14 - 0.53/12*14^2" and got 33.3. When I use W = K2 - K1, W = F*s with the average force from x = 0 to x = 14 I get the velocity at 14 meters to be 8.17 which is the correct answer.
 
Elias Waranoi said:
I'm guessing that the integral of a(t) is velocity but the integral of a(x) is something else.
Exactly. If you integrate F(x)dx, you can calculate the work and thus the change in KE.
 
Elias Waranoi said:
"3*14 - 0.53/12*14^2"
You should use parenthesis, I believe. x^2 is not in the denominator...
 
Doc Al said:
Exactly. If you integrate F(x)dx, you can calculate the work and thus the change in KE.
Ah, so the choice of integral is wrong, regardless of errors in the integration. Thanks Doc.
 
Doc Al said:
Exactly. If you integrate F(x)dx, you can calculate the work and thus the change in KE.
Ahh, so if F(x)dx integrated is work I'm guessing that integrating a unit1 with unit2 equals unit1*unit2. So when I integrated a(x)dx I actually got meter2/time2 instead of velocity. Is this correct?
 
  • #10
Elias Waranoi said:
Ahh, so if F(x)dx integrated is work I'm guessing that integrating a unit1 with unit2 equals unit1*unit2. So when I integrated a(x)dx I actually got meter2/time2 instead of velocity. Is this correct?
That's true.
 
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  • #11
Elias Waranoi said:
the integral of a(t) is velocity but the integral of a(x) is something else.
It is easy to get confused here.
It depends whether you are thinking of a as the physical entity acceleration or as purely a mathematical function.
As a physical entity, it's not whether you think of a as a function of time or of displacement that matters. What matters is what you integrate with respect to, as you figured out. Integration wrt a variable is akin to multiplication by that variable. ∫a.dt gives Δv, while ∫a.dx gives Δ(v2)/2.
If you are given a as a function of displacement, ∫a.dt still yields velocity, but how are you to perform the integral? E.g. if told a=kx3, your integral is ∫kx3.dt. Since you do not know what x is as a function of t this is not directly solvable. If you are told the total displacement then you can use ∫a.dx instead to find the velocity, but what if you are only told the elapsed time? In that case you would have to write out and solve the differential equation.
 
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