News Why is the US/UK at war with Iraq?

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The discussion centers on the justification for the war in Iraq, with participants expressing a range of views on the motivations and implications of military action. Key points include the belief that Saddam Hussein's brutal dictatorship warranted intervention, with some arguing that the U.S. had a moral imperative to act against tyranny. Critics highlight the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction and question the legitimacy of bypassing the United Nations, suggesting that the war is driven by imperialistic motives and oil interests. The conversation also touches on the potential for increased terrorism as a consequence of military action, with some asserting that removing Saddam could ultimately stabilize the region. The debate reflects deep divisions over the ethics of intervention, the effectiveness of diplomacy, and the consequences of military engagement in a complex geopolitical landscape.
  • #301
wait i have found more info from the same article:

Asked whether they view the U.S.-led coalition as "liberators" or "occupiers," 71% of all respondents say "occupiers."

That figure reaches 81% if the separatist, pro-U.S. Kurdish minority in northern Iraq is not included. The negative characterization is just as high among the Shiite Muslims who were oppressed for decades by Saddam as it is among the Sunni Muslims who embraced him.

The growing negative attitude toward the Americans is also reflected in two related survey questions: 53% say they would feel less secure without the coalition in Iraq, but 57% say the foreign troops should leave anyway. Those answers were given before the current showdowns in Fallujah and Najaf between U.S. troops and guerrilla fighters.

"I would shoot at the Americans right now if I had the chance," says Abbas Kadhum Muia, 24, who owns a bicycle shop in Sadr City, a Shiite slum of 2 million people in Baghdad that was strongly anti-Saddam and once friendly to the Americans. "At the beginning ... there were no problems, but gradually they started to show disrespect (and) encroach on our rights, arresting people."

Sabah Yeldo, a Christian who owns a liquor store across town, says American failures have left the capital with higher crime and less-reliable services, including electricity. That is "making everybody look back and seriously consider having Saddam back again instead of the Americans."

In the multiethnic Baghdad area, where a Gallup Poll last summer of 1,178 residents permits a valid comparison, only 13% of the people now say the invasion of Iraq was morally justifiable. In the 2003 poll, more than twice that number saw it as the right thing to do.

Americans regard their men and women in uniform as liberators who are trying to help Iraq. But the Iraqis now see them as a threat and focus their anger on them.

"When they pass by on the street, we are curious, so we go out to look and they immediately point their gun at you," says Muia, the bicycle shop owner.

Except for the Kurds, such feelings are widely held. For example:

Two-thirds say soldiers in the U.S.-led coalition make no attempt to keep ordinary Iraqis from being killed or wounded during exchanges of gunfire.

58% say the soldiers conduct themselves badly or very badly.

60% say the troops show disrespect for Iraqi people in searches of their homes, and 42% say U.S. forces have shown disrespect toward mosques.

46% say the soldiers show a lack of respect for Iraqi women.

Only 11% of Iraqis say coalition forces are trying hard to restore basic services such as electricity and clean drinking water.
 
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  • #302
That is "making everybody look back and seriously consider having Saddam back again instead of the Americans."

Josef Stalin, murderer of over 20 million people, was widely mourned across the Soviet Union when he died. There are still people who moan about his absence. "The trains ran on time" is a common theme expressed by those that weren't personally persecuted.
 
  • #303
JohnDubYa said:
Well, it was a BAD analogy.

The idea that Saddam treated Shias and Kurds equally to Sunnis is laughable and unsupportable. Saddam's blatant suppression of the Sunnis and their religious ceremonies is well-documented. Besides, your analogy falls apart with his treatment of Kurds.

Actually the Kurds in northern Iraq were troubled far more by the Turkish. Saddam was a secondary concern for them.
 
  • #304
russ_watters said:
Wait, no, I get it - if there are twice as many oranges than lemons but you only have two fists, squashing the same percentage of oranges as lemons takes twice as much effort!

Ugh, I feel dumber for understanding Adam's line of reasoning.

Wow. A misrepresentation and an ad hominem, all in one little post. Well done russ_watters.
 
  • #305
I doubt anyone could describe Saddam as a mere "secondary concern" to the Kurds. He slaughtered them by the thousands. Do you have any references to back up your claim that he carried out such progroms against the Sunnis?
 
  • #306
Klusener, it is natural for the citizens of any country to be distrustful and incipiently opposed to any occupying force. If a marine sees someone poking his head out his window, sure he'll point his gun at the head. Wouldn't you, if you were there ? But that's a good example of how little it takes for the occupier the make the native feel oppressed.

On the other hand, this does make Bush's words a lie every time he says : "The people of Iraq are better off now". Not if a majority of them don't feel that way.

As a counter-argument to this last point, what an Iraqi says to a western journalist may not be really what (s)he feels and may be deliberately (or at least subconsciously) biased.

To summarize : "The Iraqi people don't really know what's good for them. The President of the United States does." :wink: :biggrin:

Go ahead, call me a flip-flopper...
 
  • #307
Yay for Manifest Destiny...
 
  • #308
Klusener, it is natural for the citizens of any country to be distrustful and incipiently opposed to any occupying force. If a marine sees someone poking his head out his window, sure he'll point his gun at the head. Wouldn't you, if you were there ? But that's a good example of how little it takes for the occupier the make the native feel oppressed.

I would have to live under Saddam's rule for 25 years in order to answer that question.

On the other hand, this does make Bush's words a lie every time he says : "The people of Iraq are better off now". Not if a majority of them don't feel that way.

You assume that being better off is merely a matter of opinion, and that everyone can accurately gauge how much better off the people as a whole are in any situation.

Applying your reasoning, the economy would never be a campaign issue. Even if the unemployment rate hits 10%, 90% of the people would have few complaints. Instead, people vote based on how OTHERS are doing, not just themselves. What you are seeing from Iraqis is tunnel-vision --- since Saddam didn't torture and kill the majority of the population, this majority feels that living under Saddam was better.

Ending the sanctions alone will improve the lives of Iraqis. But those Iraqis who, themselves, were unaffected by the sanctions apparently couldn't care less about those that died from starvation and disease.

Those that wish the US had never invaded are just selfish. They couldn't care less about those that Saddam tortured. They couldn't care less about those that died from the sanctions. All they care about are their own personal living conditions.

I think these attitudes are based largely on religious bigotry. If the US had invaded with an army of Muslims, I am sure the opinion polls would have been different.

As a counter-argument to this last point, what an Iraqi says to a western journalist may not be really what (s)he feels and may be deliberately (or at least subconsciously) biased.

To summarize : "The Iraqi people don't really know what's good for them. The President of the United States does.

Do you really think Saddam Hussein was good for the Iraqi people? Were the sanctions imposed by the United Nations good for the Iraqi people? Or are the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people just a matter of opinion?
 
  • #309
Who provided Saddam those gases he killed Kurds with? i never actually found out. He was ****** he killed all those people but those who were not against him fared well. He was the man who never listened to the opposition. Instead he killed them. i don't know how some of them survived but they were lucky.

i do want to know who gave saddam those gases or the technology to prepare them?
 
  • #310
Ethanol said:
i do want to know who gave saddam those gases or the technology to prepare them?
ICI. Rotterdam. Special containers.

(corrected ICC to ICI)
 
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