kuruman said:
I don't know about the water in your pan, but I know that I can use thermal energy to explain the change in kinetic energy of a book on my table that receives a sudden kick and slides across the table top until it stops. I can write total energy conservation from the moment the book starts moving until it stops as $$\Delta E_{\text{total}}=\Delta E_{\text{thermal}}+\Delta K=0.$$The equation explains what's happening. The kinetic energy change is negative whilst the thermal energy of the book and the table increases to keep the total energy constant.
In a more complex situation, muscles use biochemical energy stored in ATP molecules. You can view the muscle as a heat engine that takes in biochemical heat energy ##\Delta Q_{\text{in}}## and produces mechanical energy ##\Delta E_{\text{mech.}}## while rejecting heat ##\Delta Q_{\text{out}}## which is manifested as change in the thermal energy of the muscle (the muscle warms-up.) The total energy conservation equation is $$\Delta E_{\text{total}}=\Delta E_{\text{biochem.}}+\Delta E_{\text{mech.}}+\Delta E_{\text{thermal}}=0.$$The first change is always negative and the third is always positive. The second change can be either, positive if I use my muscles to lift an object up or negative if I lower an object to the ground.
My point here is that thermal energy is treated just like any other form of energy.
I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond, but I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding about what I’m asking. When mfb says “not sure what Newton III has to do with energy,” this reveals exactly the conceptual gap I’m trying to address.
Newton’s third law isn’t just about forces in isolation. It’s about the relationship between action and reaction in physical interactions, and this is directly tied to energy and work. The entire foundation of classical mechanics rests on understanding that work equals force times distance, and work equals the change in energy. So we have w=f.d and w=delta-e, which means delta-e=f.d. Force, work, and energy are not separate concepts that we can discuss independently. They’re intrinsically linked in the mathematical structure Newton gave us.
When I push a book across a table, my hand exerts a force, the book moves a distance, work is done, and the kinetic energy of the book changes. The book simultaneously exerts an equal and opposite force on my hand. This is Newton’s third law in action, and it’s inseparable from the energy transformation occurring. Every mechanical process we describe involves this interplay between forces, work, and energy changes.
Now here’s my actual question: why does thermal energy get treated as a special case where this relationship breaks down? Kuruman says thermal energy involves countless forces in random directions while other forms involve forces in observable directions. But this is exactly what I’m questioning. When water boils in my pan, I can observe the direction. The water moves upward, vapor forms and rises, convection currents flow in specific patterns. These aren’t random motions without direction. They’re organized, observable movements that clearly involve forces acting in particular ways.
The standard answer is that at the molecular level it’s all random collisions, and we use statistics because we can’t track individual molecules. Fine. But my question is more fundamental: why can we use thermal energy to explain work in an engine, where we happily connect heat to mechanical motion through expansion and pressure, but we cannot use thermal energy to explain the mechanical motion of boiling water using the same energy-force-work relationship? It’s the same energy, the same type of molecular motion, yet in one context we maintain the connection to directional forces and work, and in the other we say it’s just disordered and statistical.
I’m not claiming energy is a force. I’m asking why the transformation of thermal energy into kinetic energy and work suddenly requires us to abandon the force-work-energy framework that applies everywhere else in physics. When gravitational potential energy converts to kinetic energy, we describe it through forces and work. When elastic potential energy converts to kinetic energy, we describe it through forces and work. When electrical potential energy converts to kinetic energy, we describe it through forces and work. Why does thermal energy conversion require a completely different explanatory framework based on statistical disorder rather than physical causality?
The equation delta-E-total = delta-E-thermal + delta-K = 0 that kuruman provided describes conservation, which I’m not disputing. But conservation equations tell us that energy is accounted for, not how it physically transforms. The “how” question is what I’m asking. In every other energy transformation, we have physical mechanisms involving directional forces. In thermal processes, we replace mechanism with statistics and call it fundamental randomness.
I’m genuinely trying to understand why this one form of energy gets ontologically different treatment. If the answer is “because that’s how statistical mechanics works,” then I’m asking why we built statistical mechanics that way rather than seeking the same kind of causal, directional force explanations we demand everywhere else in physics. That’s not an undergraduate confusion about definitions. It’s a question about why our theoretical framework treats thermal phenomena as fundamentally different from all other physical phenomena.