Why must an isomorphism between 2Z and 3Z result in mu(2) = +/- 3?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of the rings ##2\mathbb{Z}## and ##3\mathbb{Z}##, specifically addressing the implications of an isomorphism between them. Participants explore why an isomorphism ##\mu : 2\mathbb{Z} \to 3\mathbb{Z}## would necessitate that ##\mu(2) = \pm 3##, and they delve into the broader topic of counting homomorphisms and the distinctions between ring homomorphisms and group homomorphisms.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that if there were an isomorphism, it must map the generators of ##2\mathbb{Z}## to those of ##3\mathbb{Z}##, leading to the conclusion that ##\mu(2) = \pm 3##.
  • Another participant reiterates the necessity of preserving the property of generating the ring, which must hold for any ring isomorphism.
  • A participant questions how to count homomorphisms, suggesting that it might relate to the cyclic nature of ##2\mathbb{Z}##.
  • Some participants assert that there are no ring homomorphisms between ##2\mathbb{Z}## and ##3\mathbb{Z}##, while group homomorphisms do exist.
  • There is a discussion about the distinction between rings with unity and those without, and whether this affects the existence of homomorphisms.
  • One participant expresses confusion about how to apply the concept of counting homomorphisms while maintaining algebraic structure, specifically in the context of mapping generators.
  • A later reply explains how to determine the action of a homomorphism on a cyclic ring based on its action on a generator, emphasizing the linearity rules.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the preservation of generating properties under isomorphisms, but there is no consensus on the existence of homomorphisms between the rings, with some asserting that none exist while others explore the conditions under which they might.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention that the proof for the non-existence of ring isomorphisms does not rely on bijectivity, which may also apply to ring homomorphisms. The discussion also touches on the implications of cyclicity and the nature of the rings involved.

Mr Davis 97
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My book is trying to show that the rngs ##2 \mathbb{Z}## and ##3 \mathbb{Z}## are not isomorphic. It starts by saying that if there were an isomorphism ##\mu : 2 \mathbb{Z} \to 3 \mathbb{Z}## then by group theory we would know that ##\mu (2) = \pm 3##. It then goes on to show that this leads to a contradiction. My question has to do with why it must be true, if we assume ##\mu## is an isomorphism, that ##\mu (2) = \pm 3##
 
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##2\mathbb Z## contains exactly two elements that can generate the ring on their own. Those elements are 2 and -2.
##3\mathbb Z## contains exactly two elements that can generate the ring on their own. Those elements are 3 and -3.
Since the property of being able to generate the ring on its own is a ring property, it must be preserved by any ring isomorphism. Hence any ring isomorphism must map 2 to either 3 or -3 and must map -2 to the other one.
 
andrewkirk said:
##2\mathbb Z## contains exactly two elements that can generate the ring on their own. Those elements are 2 and -2.
##3\mathbb Z## contains exactly two elements that can generate the ring on their own. Those elements are 3 and -3.
Since the property of being able to generate the ring on its own is a ring property, it must be preserved by any ring isomorphism. Hence any ring isomorphism must map 2 to either 3 or -3 and must map -2 to the other one.
Okay, that makes sense. You need to preserve the structural properties.

To make the problem more general, how would you count how many homomorphisms there are, and not necessarily isomorphisms? I'm assuming that it might still involve the fact that ##2 \mathbb{Z}## is cyclic.
 
Mr Davis 97 said:
how would you count how many homomorphisms there are, and not necessarily isomorphisms? I'm assuming that it might still involve the fact that ##2 \mathbb{Z}## is cyclic.
There are no ring homomorphisms between the two. The proof that there are no ring isomorphisms does not use bijectivity and hence applies equally well to ring homomorphisms.

There will be group homomorphisms between the two sets as abelian groups, but no ring homomorphisms.

In general, if you want to count homomorphisms, look at how many generators there are, and how many different ways they can be mapped while preserving the algebraic structure.
 
andrewkirk said:
There are no ring homomorphisms between the two. The proof that there are no ring isomorphisms does not use bijectivity and hence applies equally well to ring homomorphisms.

There will be group homomorphisms between the two sets as abelian groups, but no ring homomorphisms.

In general, if you want to count homomorphisms, look at how many generators there are, and how many different ways they can be mapped while preserving the algebraic structure.
What if we make the distinction between rings with unity and rings without unity? Would homomorphisms exist for the latter but not the former?
 
I don't understand the scope of your question. Some pairs of rings can be connected by homorphisms and others cannot.

If we restrict ourselves to isomorphisms, IIRC all cyclic, unital rings of a given order are isomorphic. That is not the case for non-unital rings, as this example demonstrates.
 
andrewkirk said:
I don't understand the scope of your question. Some pairs of rings can be connected by homorphisms and others cannot.

If we restrict ourselves to isomorphisms, IIRC all cyclic, unital rings of a given order are isomorphic. That is not the case for non-unital rings, as this example demonstrates.
Actually, scratch that. I was confused.

Could you walk me through application of the statement: "In general, if you want to count homomorphisms, look at how many generators there are, and how many different ways they can be mapped while preserving the algebraic structure"?

In this case, we know that ##2 \mathbb{Z}## has two generators, ##-2## and ##2##. How do we determine how a homomorphism ##\mu## could map these while maintaining the algebraic structure? I don't see how in this case we use the facts ##\mu (a+b) = \mu (a) + \mu (b)## and ##\mu (ab) = \mu(a) \mu(b)##
 
Say we want to find a homomorphism ##f## from ##2\mathbb Z## to some cyclic ring ##R## which is generated by ##r##. Since 2 generates ##2\mathbb Z##, ##f(2)## must generate ##Im\ R##. To find ##f(k)## for ##k\in 2\mathbb Z## we use the linearity rules to observe that ##f(k)=f\left(\sum_{j=1}^{k/2}2\right)=\sum_{j=1}^{k/2} f(2)##, which is the image of 2 added to itself ##k/2## times. Thus, knowing the action of ##f## on ##2## tells us the action of ##f## on any other element of the domain.

More generally, if the domain is any cyclic ring, we need only determine the action of the candidate homomorphism on a generator of the domain, in order to determine the entire map.

If ##R## contains an isomorphic copy of the domain, we can find a non-trivial isomorphism, eg if ##R## is the integers or Gaussian Integers. But otherwise it may not be possible, so that the only homomorphism is the trivial one that maps everything to zero. The example given is of that kind. It is the distributive law that creates the constraints.
 

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