Insights Why You Should Not Use Wikipedia As Your Primary Source - Comments

[micromass]

That's fine, micro. I honestly don't expect anyone, or a lot of people who are not experts in the photoemission phenomenon to find anything wrong with it.

BTW, let me also try something here, and this has nothing to do with errors. When you read this (I know you did it rather quickly), did you understand it?
In other words, did you understand this 3-step model, especially Process #1?

Zz.

I don't think I understood anything of what they said.

 

[brainpushups]

Some valid points have been made both as to wikipedia's flaws and to its usefulness. I think the bottom line is that, if you want to learn something in detail, you should probably be using multiple "primary" sources. Different authors can explain things in ways that different readers can find preference for. As a quick reference for something you are already familiar with, wikipedia can a nice resource.

 

[atyy]

Yes, obviously there are degrees of viability.

If you read ZapperZ's definition of primary, it means only source. As far as I know, there is no such thing. So if there are degrees of viability, then why not consider Wikipedia a primary source with some non-zero viability.

On what grounds is ZapperZ arguing that it hs d zero viability?

Apparently, not on the basis of errors, only on the basis of authority?

 

[ZapperZ]

I don't think I understood anything of what they said.

And you know what, that is the problem, because as a professional working in photoemission and making photocathodes, *I* can't figure out what Process 1 is in that description either!

I know the Spicer 3-step process like the back of my hand. The entire description of the 3-step process in the Wikipedia entry is not only flawed (yes, there are amateur errors in there), but it is also awfully presented. This is one of my major issue with Wikipedia articles, which I had stated many times.

Zz.

 

[micromass]

If you read ZapperZ's definition of primary, it means only source. As far as I know, there is no such thing.

Many people use wikipedia as only source.

So if there are degrees of viability, then why not consider Wikipedia a primary source with some non-zero viability.

As a pedagogical tool, it has zero viability. It is simply awful. It should only be used if you already know what it is talking about.

 

[atyy]

Many people use wikipedia as only source.

But should anything be used as an only source? If there is no such thing, why single out Wikipedia, especially when he faults Wikipedia's "WHOLE PHILOSOPHY" but cannot even provide an example that Wikipedia recommends that it used as an only source.

As a pedagogical tool, it has zero viability. It is simply awful. It should only be used if you already know what it is talking about.

Why?

 

[atyy]

Sticking to the subject, you accused my "two" essays at not having to do with each other. I responded by pointing out why you simply didn't pay attention. Are you STILL under that false impression?

And no, I have no desire to answer you anymore. I'm just doing cleaning up of the previously-created mess.

Ultimately, you have only asserted that authority is necessary to be something non-existent - a recommended sole source.

 

[micromass]

But should anything be used as an only source?

Sure, why not? If I want to learn linear algebra, then relying only on the book by Treil will not give lead me astray. Many colleges (including mine) only give one source for the material. I have learned many topics using only one book as source and nothing else.

Why?

Because I have seen many discussions on these forums where people argue with me. Some of these people use wikipedia as only source for their learning and they have very glaring misconceptions which they would not have if they read a standard book on the topic.

 

[atyy]

Sure, why not? If I want to learn linear algebra, then relying only on the book by Treil will not give lead me astray. Many colleges (including mine) only give one source for the material. I have learned many topics using only one book as source and nothing else.

But now I would be using you as a "sole source" for that :)

I think relying on sole sources in general is problematic. Even the wonderful Feynman lectures had mistakes - and no, I'm not talking about the the potentially controversial parts on quantum mechanics - there was an error in Feynman's treatment of Gauss's law, which Feynman clearly understood deeply, but was careless in that presentation.

Secondly, ZapperZ is not arguing that Wikipedia not be used as a sole source because of its errors. He is concerned with authority. But in general, and certainly in maths and science, it is logic and evidence that one should be concerned with, not authority. So I cannot agree with his attack on Wikipedia's "WHOLE PHILOSOPHY" and the misleading insinuation that Wikipedia suggests that it be used as a sole source.

Because I have seen many discussions on these forums where people argue with me. Some of these people use wikipedia as only source for their learning and they have very glaring misconceptions which they would not have if they read a standard book on the topic.

But then is the problem Wikipedia's "WHOLE PHILOSOPHY" or is it these people's own personal philosophy that is problematic?

 

[micromass]

Secondly, ZapperZ is not arguing that Wikipedia not be used as a sole source because of its errors. He is concerned with authority.

No, he isn't (well he is, but that is not his main argument). You are clearly not reading him carefully enough. He is concerned with errors, sure. But he is also concerned with a nonpedagogical approach to the material. An exposition in a book would identify certain inner-relationship, special cases, examples, etc. Wikipedia does not provide this. The material in wikipedia is often hard to understand even for the expert. And it is certainly not structured in such a way that it gives a beginner a good handle on the material.

 

[atyy]

Here is a description of the basic mistake in the earlier editions of the Feynman lectures:

This second error was pointed out to Feynman by a number of readers, including Beulah Elizabeth Cox, a student at The College of William and Mary, who had relied on Feynman’s erroneous passage in an exam. To Ms. Cox, Feynman wrote in 1975,[1] “Your instructor was right not to give you any points, for your answer was wrong, as he demonstrated using Gauss’s law. You should, in science, believe logic and arguments, carefully drawn, and not authorities. You also read the book correctly and understood it. I made a mistake, so the book is wrong. I probably was thinking of a grounded conducting sphere, or else of the fact that moving the charges around in different places inside does not affect things on the outside. I am not sure how I did it, but I goofed. And you goofed, too, for believing me.”

http://www.feynmanlectures.info/flp_errata.html

 

[micromass]

But then is the problem Wikipedia's "WHOLE PHILOSOPHY" or is it these people's own personal philosophy that is problematic?

Yes, the problem is with the people who think that they should rely on wikipedia only. This is exactly what Zz means with "don't use wikipedia as primary resource".

 

[atyy]

No, he isn't (well he is, but that is not his main argument). You are clearly not reading him carefully enough. He is concerned with errors, sure. But he is also concerned with a nonpedagogical approach to the material. An exposition in a book would identify certain inner-relationship, special cases, examples, etc. Wikipedia does not provide this. The material in wikipedia is often hard to understand even for the expert. And it is certainly not structured in such a way that it gives a beginner a good handle on the material.

Yes, the problem is with the people who think that they should rely on wikipedia only. This is exactly what Zz means with "don't use wikipedia as primary resource".

He is attacking Wikipedia's "WHOLE PHILOSOPHY", so he is assigning the blame for the misuse of Wikipedia to Wikipedia, not to the erroneous philosophy or those misusing it. It would be like attacking the "WHOLE PHILOSOPHY" of the Feynman lectures, because some student learned something wrong from it.

 

[micromass]

He is attacking Wikipedia's "WHOLE PHILOSOPHY"

No, he isn't. He is saying that wikipedia shouldn't be used as primary resource, and that wikipedia's whole philosophy is responsible for this. This means that wikipedia's whole philosophy implies that wikipedia is not a good resource for learning (and neither would encyclopedia britannica, and neither would the Feynman lectures (but for a different reason)). Wikipedia's whole philosophy does make it a good resource for somebody already knowing the material, or somebody reading through a textbook and wanting to get another view on things.

 

[atyy]

No, he isn't. He is saying that wikipedia shouldn't be used as primary resource, and that wikipedia's whole philosophy is responsible for this. This means that wikipedia's whole philosophy implies that wikipedia is not a good resource for learning (and neither would encyclopedia britannica, and neither would the Feynman lectures (but for a different reason)). Wikipedia's whole philosophy does make it a good resource for somebody already knowing the material, or somebody reading through a textbook and wanting to get another view on things.

Well, I disagree. The Feynman lectures are a superb resource for learning, in spite of their errors.

(I also don't agree with you reading of ZapperZ's essay. But then that comes down to an exercise in English literature.)

 

[micromass]

Well, I disagree. The Feynman lectures are a superb resource for learning, in spite of their errors.

There are many good reasons why the Feynman lectures should not be used as an introductory physics book. One of the reasons to convince you should be that the original Feynman lectures at caltech were a failure. There are other reasons too.

The Feynman lectures ARE a superb resource, but you should be careful in how to use them. For example, you get a standard book like Halliday and Resnick (for intro physics), Kleppner (for mechanics), Purcell (for E&M), etc. You read a chapter in these books, do the problems, etc. Then you can check Feynman to see what he has to say about it. This way, you are using Feynman as a secondary resource. This is an amazing way to learn physics. But only relying on Feynman would be rather disastrous.

The same thing holds for wikipedia really. You get a standard book. You read a chapter, do the problems, etc. Then you can use wikipedia to check what they have to say about it. I do not have a problem with this approach since I do things this way myself. But then you are using wikipedia as an auxiliary resource, you would primarily be relying on the book. Relying primarily on wikipedia is a bad idea.

 

[atyy]

There are many good reasons why the Feynman lectures should not be used as an introductory physics book. One of the reasons to convince you should be that the original Feynman lectures at caltech were a failure. There are other reasons too.

The Feynman lectures ARE a superb resource, but you should be careful in how to use them. For example, you get a standard book like Halliday and Resnick (for intro physics), Kleppner (for mechanics), Purcell (for E&M), etc. You read a chapter in these books, do the problems, etc. Then you can check Feynman to see what he has to say about it. This way, you are using Feynman as a secondary resource. This is an amazing way to learn physics. But only relying on Feynman would be rather disastrous.

The same thing holds for wikipedia really. You get a standard book. You read a chapter, do the problems, etc. Then you can use wikipedia to check what they have to say about it. I do not have a problem with this approach since I do things this way myself. But then you are using wikipedia as an auxiliary resource, you would primarily be relying on the book. Relying primarily on wikipedia is a bad idea.

If one has a primary source, there cannot be secondary sources. A primary source according to ZapperZ means there are no other sources.

 

[micromass]

If one has a primary source, there cannot be secondary sources. A primary source according to ZapperZ means there are no other sources.

He doesn't mean this. You have misunderstood him. He gave you an example of a primary source. You incorrectly deduced that primary source means only source.

 

[mathwonk]

From reading the first part of Zapper's article, he seems to me to be saying that one should not depend on wikipedia, if one really wants to understand something and be confident about it. Even though I do consult wikipedia at times for a quick version of something, I tend to agree, and think his warning is an important one for learners.

As an example of mine, I once edited the article on wiki for the Riemann - Roch theorem, especially for curves, and some generalizations. I am not an expert, since I have done no research on this subject, but its use figured in my research almost every day for some 40 years, and I have studied it in primary sources and authoritative texts by experts such as: Riemann (the original preliminary source), Roch (the second and final original source), Weyl, Siegel, Gunning, Mumford, Walker, Fulton, Hartshorne (I also audited his course about 1967), Arbarello, Cornalba, P.A. Griffiths, Hormander, Springer, Seidenberg, J. Harris, Miranda, Mayer, Mattuck, Atiyah, Chern, Hirzebruch, Kodaira, Serre, Zariski (I also heard him lecture on it in about 1966), Van der Waerden, Lang, Macdonald, Chevalley, Beauvile, Kempf,... I also spent part of one summer writing a set of notes on the theorem and posted them on my website.
(I have not however studied perhaps the most significant work generalizing this theorem in the last 60 years, the work of Grothendieck, exposed by Borel and Serre in 1958.)

After all these years of studying secondary sources, following courses, teaching and using the result in my research, and writing it up, I only felt I really understood the theorem when an English language version of Riemann’s collected works became available in the last decade, and I studied the original articles closely, after being chosen by Math Reviews as the official reviewer.

With this insight, I edited the wiki article for the classical case of curves, making a few changes to correct misconceptions that persist among people who have not actually read Riemann’s own account, and a few attempts to render the text more concrete and down to earth. Then I retired from the fray, only to see someone come in almost immediately and remove some of the correct statements I had made, and replace them again with the usual misconceptions and needlessly abstract formulations. What appears there now, much later, is a brief, clear but unmotivated and unsubstantiated standard summary such as one might read in any elementary text or undergraduate thesis, but without proofs. So I definitely would not consult wikipedia for an authoritative account of subjects I already know enough about to write articles on them myself.

On the other hand, when I wanted to know some formulas for volumes of spheres in higher dimensions for a geometry class I was teaching, I found an excellent, clear and comprehensive statement in wikipedia, which I then checked myself by giving proofs of my own devising.

It seems that the wiki articles I have read on subjects that I understand best, are written by students or energetic amateurs who give an account of versions of the material they have read up in standard books. On topics I am not so competent in, I cannot judge whether they are written by experts, but it seldom seems the case when I am able to judge.

So I find wikipedia useful in areas where I am deficient, which is most, to provide brief statements of facts, (not always accurate), but a bit below par in the few areas where I am much more informed than average. Thus I would suggest using it as a sort of Schaums outline series, a source for quick and ready summaries of information, but in cases where one aspires to become expert oneself, I agree one should certainly read instead sources whose authors are known specialists and experts, if not the original source by the discoverer, i.e. primary sources. The danger may be that since one cannot become a scholar by depending on wiki, its overly widespread use may thus lead to a decline in scholarship. Perhaps this is what concerns ZapperZ.

By the way, if you want a good account of the classical Riemann Roch theorem, I recommend the one in the book of Griffiths and Harris, as closest in spirit to the original.

 

[jerromyjon]

a source for quick and ready summaries of information

That's what I use Wikipedia for, when I can't or won't read an entire book or article to find something small that I want to learn or share. It is usually direct and to the point, and once you then know the basic terms or concepts you can google for other sources for confirmation or elaboration.

 

[ZapperZ]

With this insight, I edited the wiki article for the classical case of curves, making a few changes to correct misconceptions that persist among people who have not actually read Riemann’s own account, and a few attempts to render the text more concrete and down to earth. Then I retired from the fray, only to see someone come in almost immediately and remove some of the correct statements I had made, and replace them again with the usual misconceptions and needlessly abstract formulations. What appears there now, much later, is a brief, clear but unmotivated and unsubstantiated standard summary such as one might read in any elementary text or undergraduate thesis, but without proofs. So I definitely would not consult wikipedia for an authoritative account of subjects I already know enough about to write articles on them myself.

This is what I listed as #1 on the faulty philosophy of Wikipedia. And truth be told, it was the impetus on why I wrote that original article (it was actually an entry in the old PF Blog). I had a friend who edited the biography of a famous person (not a STEM topic), and it included a first-hand eye-witness account of an incident at an event. A week later, he saw that his entry had been deleted, modified, and changed into something that contradicted what he saw, and all were based on 2nd hand, and shoddy "news" account. That was the start of a series of back-and-forth argument involving several different parties that mangled that Wikipedia page.

I followed this as long as I could stand, and that was when I decided to write that article years ago. And this was after someone was using a Wikipedia page as a source to argue against me on a topic I know very well. So there was a double-coupon reason to write this.

Zz.

P.S. My invitation to scrutinize that Photoelectric Effect page on Wikipedia still stands. I promise, I am not trying to trap you here. I need to know if you (i) understand the physics (ii) actually understood what it is trying to say and (iii) if you spot errors or something funny.

 

[Jimster41]

I don't think that accuracy is the only goal (or even the primary goal) of a live interactive, cross-linked, globally-accessible free encyclopedia - unlike anything the world has ever seen.

I believe it represents the first modern learning system - I love it because it is an "open-world" of associated concepts with introductory (or better) explanations for just about anything and everything, at the tips your fingers, steered only by your uncertainty and curiousity. It's extensibility and potential for contributing to education are limitless.

I am grateful to the people who honestly try to make it better - like correcting content to match the canon, calling out controversial stuff, policing the contribution process, adding awesome graphics and pictures, linking every page to deeper more orthodox content. I believe they are the ones with my interests at heart.

I contribute money to it regularly. Maybe rich educational institutions should do the same.

And good luck railing against it.

 

[atyy]

He doesn't mean this. You have misunderstood him. He gave you an example of a primary source. You incorrectly deduced that primary source means only source.

The irony is that only mathwonk in this thread has used "primary source" in the standard sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source

 

[micromass]

I think it should be obvious to everyone what ZapperZ meant with primary source...

 

[atyy]

I think it should be obvious to everyone what ZapperZ meant with primary source...

But the question then is whether he is using standard English.

 

[micromass]

No, he isn't. And that is again obvious to everyone who is reading this thread.

 

[Jimster41]

The irony is that only mathwonk in this thread has used "primary source" in the standard sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source

Ha Ha. fair enough. I can't imagine anyone would use it as a source in a scholarly paper, unless it was to point out how "generally accepted by most folks as true" something was. I was thinking of it in the context of a wide ranging learning conversation - like the ones that happen on this forum, and I was thinking of primary as "first".

It is great as a first resource because of what I said - It is navigable and it goes everywhere. It's like the ultimate TOC, or card catalog. I often find myself learning about something completely different than what I began looking for just by clicking on words I don't understand - and from that I'm learning the dependency tree, which is half the battle.

 

[jim mcnamara]

I think is somewhat explanatory: https://xkcd.com/978/

 

[atyy]

No, he isn't. And that is again obvious to everyone who is reading this thread.

But if Wikipedia's own philosophy is that it should not be used as a "primary source", and if ZapperZ agrees with it, yet has a problem with Wikipedia's "WHOLE PHILOSOPHY", then he is either contradicting himself or not using "WHOLE PHILOSOPHY" in any standard sense either.

 

[atyy]

This is what I listed as #1 on the faulty philosophy of Wikipedia. And truth be told, it was the impetus on why I wrote that original article (it was actually an entry in the old PF Blog). I had a friend who edited the biography of a famous person (not a STEM topic), and it included a first-hand eye-witness account of an incident at an event. A week later, he saw that his entry had been deleted, modified, and changed into something that contradicted what he saw, and all were based on 2nd hand, and shoddy "news" account. That was the start of a series of back-and-forth argument involving several different parties that mangled that Wikipedia page.

I followed this as long as I could stand, and that was when I decided to write that article years ago. And this was after someone was using a Wikipedia page as a source to argue against me on a topic I know very well. So there was a double-coupon reason to write this.

Zz.

P.S. My invitation to scrutinize that Photoelectric Effect page on Wikipedia still stands. I promise, I am not trying to trap you here. I need to know if you (i) understand the physics (ii) actually understood what it is trying to say and (iii) if you spot errors or something funny.

A first hand account is a "primary source". So your complaint is with Wikipedia's "WHOLE PHILOSOPHY" is that it is not intended to be a primary source? I see, you are insisting that Wikipedia should be a primary source. Yes, that is indeed a disagreement with its "WHOLE PHILOSOPHY".