News Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[Anttech]

Our civilians are being attacked. Do you really expect us not to defend ourselves?! You are so "understanding" to terrorists and radicals but you do not recognise this basic right of self-defence? Get some sense man, this isn't a random shooting, it's not a wave of suicide attacks.

You are kidding yourself if you believe what is going on could be called self-defence. You have killed over 400 people in Lebanon now. Hezbollah have killed about 40 Israeli's. What is happening is you are attacking Hezbollah, using the smoke screen of self-defence, "Well they started it". You are going for the proverbial jugular. Which is very short sighted I may add.

Look I understand your basic need to defend yourselfs, but I do not understand why you are using such brutal force.

Look at the bloody stats:

600,000 people in 2 weeks have been made refugees or displaced.
400 people (mostly civilian) have been killed
All major Bridges have been destroyed, and some eyewitnesses are saying also the foundations have been bombed, which I find peculiar.
You have attacked and disrupted most Television stations
You have bombed the Beruit Airport Runway
You have completely annihilated the south of Beruit
You have attacked the UN observers
You have Bomb Civilian truck convoys
Eye witness have stated that Factories making food have been hit
Major Roads used to evacuate Displaced civilians have been hit
Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli planes

And still the US is shipping more rockets and ammo to you!

This is not self defence, its an all out attack on Lebanon.

 

[Anttech]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5219360.stm
All southerners terrorists'

He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there can be considered Hezbollah supporters.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

What a clever man.

Perhaps there are people who are too scared to leave, or physically cant. You can't give yourselfs a carte blancs to kill anybody you see.

"We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world... to continue the operation," Justice Minister Haim Ramon said.

Apart from the UN stating very clearly that the Hostilities must stop.

 

[Yonoz]

You are kidding yourself if you believe what is going on could be called self-defence. You have killed over 400 people in Lebanon now. Hezbollah have killed about 40 Israeli's. What is happening is you are attacking Hezbollah, using the smoke screen of self-defence, "Well they started it". You are going for the proverbial jugular. Which is very short sighted I may add.

Should we apologize for having too low a casualty count?!
Should we apologize for building and maintaining bomb shelters, at great expense may I add? Should we apologize for having an experienced state of the art military? Should we apologize for the fact that our population and economy are strong? Should we apologize for governing our own country? Should we apologize for Hizbullah's human shield strategy? Should we apologize for trying to stop the daily firing of dozens of rockets at our cities? THIS IS A SERIOUS RISK TO OUR CIVILIAN POPULATION. WE'RE LUCKY TO HAVE SO FEW CASUALTIES. WE'RE LUCKY NO ROCKETS LANDED IN THE PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRIES IN HAIFA. Show me one country that would behave differently when faced with such a grave threat to its citizens.

Look I understand your basic need to defend yourselfs, but I do not understand why you are using such brutal force.

It is not brutal force. See that NY Times article.

BEIRUT, Lebanon, July 24 — The Paul Restaurant is still serving elegant lunches of prosciutto and chèvre. At the Printania, an elegant hotel on a hill east of the capital, stylish guests sip Arabic coffee near a glass display case of éclairs and chilled chocolate mousse.

FYI the restaurants in Haifa are all closed.

Look at the bloody stats:

600,000 people in 2 weeks have been made refugees or displaced.

So has 1/3rd of northern Israel's population.

400 people (mostly civilian) have been killed

1400 rockets landed in Israel, each with the potential to kill a large number of people by expelling supersonic pellets to high distances. One such rocket killed 8 railway workers. Hizbullah is trying to hit the petrochemical industries in Haifa, in a hope to create an environmental disaster.

All major Bridges have been destroyed, and some eyewitnesses are saying also the foundations have been bombed, which I find peculiar.
Major Roads used to evacuate Displaced civilians have been hit.

Those are legitimate targets that have prevented the flow of more rockets and launchers closer to the border, distancing many Israelis from danger. The foundations play a major role in keeping the bridge up as you may know, it's quite probable they'd get damaged if the bridge is knocked down.

You have attacked and disrupted most Television stations

Israel has attacked Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV and radio station, and has bombed communication infrastructure such as antennae that Hizbullah uses.

You have bombed the Beruit Airport Runway

In full compliance with international law, to stop more weapons coming in and the kidnapped soldiers moved out.

You have completely annihilated the south of Beruit

Only the Dahiya neighbourhood was majorly affected and that neighbourhood was a giant Hizbullah compund.

You have attacked the UN observers
You have Bomb Civilian truck convoys

Unfortunate incidents that need to be inverstigated. Civilians and and the UN are not targetted intentionally. Entire convoys were not attacked. Many more trucks carrying weapons have also been destroyed, you don't hear that on the news, do you?

Eye witness have stated that Factories making food have been hit

Food is in no shortage in Lebanon. Eyewitness reports are not facts.

Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli planes

Absolutely false.

And still the US is shipping more rockets and ammo to you!

Of course it is. Iran is also shipping more weapons to Hizbullah. Why don't you run up to complain to them?

This is not self defence, its an all out attack on Lebanon.

False.

 

[Yonoz]

What a clever man.

Perhaps there are people who are too scared to leave, or physically cant. You can't give yourselfs a carte blancs to kill anybody you see.

Seriously, if you're still in south Lebanon it's not because you're scared or disabled.

Apart from the UN stating very clearly that the Hostilities must stop.

Then let them enforce UNSC resolution 1559.

 

[Anttech]

Should we apologize for having too low a casualty count?!

No you should apologise to lebanon for killing so many innocent people.

Should we apologize for building and maintaining bomb shelters, at great expense may I add?

No

Should we apologize for having an experienced state of the art military?

nope, but you should probably say thank-you.

Should we apologize for the fact that our population and economy are strong?

Nope

Should we apologize for governing our own country?

Nope, but you should acknowledge that your imediate neighbours are suffering, and your 'strong' population and 'strong' ecconomy should be helping them

Should we apologize for Hizbullah's human shield strategy?

No but you should not use it as an excuse, which is what you are clearly doing

Should we apologize for trying to stop the daily firing of dozens of rockets at our cities?

Nope, but your war has actually increased the amount of rockets, so you government should be appologising to you for being wrong about its tactics

Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli planes

Absolutely false.

Aid convoys have been hit by Israeli air strikes in the south. Six Lebanese Red Cross paramedics were wounded in an Israeli strike on Sunday http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5216326.stm

 

[Yonoz]

No you should apologise to lebanon for killing so many innocent people.

I've yet to see anyone apologize to Israel for Israeli civilians killed. Our civilians are purposefuly targetted, theirs aren't. We should not apologize for protecting our own civilians.

nope, but you should probably say thank-you.

I thought you were against foreign influence on countries in this region. Sudden change of heart?

Nope, but you should acknowledge that your imediate neighbours are suffering, and your 'strong' population and 'strong' ecconomy should be helping them

Oh but we are. Believe me, it would be easiest to end this quickly with a massive bombardment, without waiting for civilians to leave. We could carpet bomb entire villages like has been done by many other countries in the recent past. Instead we send our troops in, and some of them don't come back. That is a price WE PAY to avoid unnecessary civilian deaths. You don't seem to appreciate that at all.

No but you should not use it as an excuse, which is what you are clearly doing

An excuse? Shame on you. Hizbullah are attacking us from behind innocent people and now you're saying we're using that as an excuse? Is every time Israel is attacked simply an excuse to kill Arabs? Who do you think we are?

Nope, but your war has actually increased the amount of rockets, so you government should be appologising to you for being wrong about its tactics

Hahaha now we're guilty of being fired upon. Hyppocrite.

 

[Anttech]

You like to read what you want, don't you?

An excuse? Shame on you. Hizbullah are attacking us from behind innocent people and now you're saying we're using that as an excuse? Is every time Israel is attacked simply an excuse to kill Arabs? Who do you think we are?

You are Arabs with a different religion that others, but you are Arabs neither the less. You are using the fact that (disgusting as it is) hezbollah are using gurrilea warfair tactics against you, as the excuse behind the disproportional amount of Lebanese lifes that have been taken.

nope, but you should probably say thank-you.
I thought you were against foreign influence on countries in this region. Sudden change of heart?

I was being Ironic! Its part of the problem you know, the lopsided generosity that has been shown to Israel as oppose to any other ME country. People arent stupid, they see this with there own eyes. Look at Palestine, its literally, inside Israel yet it is so poor.

I've yet to see anyone apologize to Israel for Israeli civilians killed. Our civilians are purposefully targeted, theirs aren't. We should not apologize for protecting our own civilians.

Honestly, don't take this the wrong way, because it isn't directed at you: I don't believe that you (The Israli army) are not purposefully targeting civilians. This was proven to the world after you purposefully targeted a UN Observation post, using Laser guided Missiles after the Unarmed Observers had radioed to your Army 10 times they were there. That was the UN, who are protected up to the eyeballs with treaties and international coverage. I can imagine what must be happening in Beruit to ordinary noncombantants. And as a matter of fact, we don't need to imagine, we can just go and read up on the last time you shelled Beruit in the conquest of defeting the PLO.

 

[Anttech]

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel.lebanon.FINAL2.pdf

During the Bush administration, from 2001 to 2005, Israel has actually received
more in U.S. military aid than it has in U.S. arms deliveries. Over this time period
Israel received $10.5 billion in Foreign Military Financing – the Pentagon’s biggest
military aid program – and $6.3 billion in U.S. arms deliveries. The aid figure is
larger than the arms transfer figure because it includes financing for major arms
agreements for which the equipment has yet to be fully delivered. The most prominent of
these deals is a $4.5 billion sale of 102 Lockheed Martin F-16s to Israel. “When it comes
to getting arms from the U.S., Israel has money in the bank,” noted Hartung.
There are precedents for U.S. criticism of Israel’s use of weapons in human rights abuses,
including “extrajudicial killings” and “excessive use of force.” In the State Department’s
human rights reports for 2003, 2004, and 2005, incidents mentioned include missile
strikes on a refugee camp that killed six people and wounded 19; the shooting and killing
of four Palestinian children; the demolition of Palestinian homes using tank shells, heavy
machine guns, and rockets (deemed an excessive use of force); the use of rocket fire in
targeted killing of leaders of Hamas; the killing of 47 civilian bystanders in an operation
aimed at suspected terrorists in the occupied territories; and the use of tank shells,
machine-gun rounds and rockets fired from aircraft against Palestinian towns and cities

Surely This should stop until we can establish if the Israeli's are not breaking human rights laws, like what happened when Regan was in power!

During the last major Israeli incursion into Lebanon, in 1981, the Reagan administration
cut off U.S. military aid and arms deliveries for ten weeks while it investigated whether
Israel was using weapons for “defensive purposes,” as required under U.S. law.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

A few things are clear, the west has condemned Israel for it's "attrocities", UN officials visitng the area have already mentioned the breaches of humanitarian law in Israels attacks(you can specualte all you like on what that will mean) It's going to be hard to convince anyone what you did is right or justified under the considerable pressure from outside the Middle East, it's too late for that now anyway, you should be looking at damage limitation ATM, making the utmost effort to only target military targets and avoiding areas where this is not possible, maybe using small elite forces to take out areas where civillians still remain, i.e being more discriminatory. Reputation repair.

The UN cannot enforce any resolution against Israel particularly not the ones you mentioned, the US will veto any action taken against Israel atm, which is why many of the 170+ resolutions you face have never been enforced, however we appreciate when you try to conform to them of your own free will, because there is no threat implicit in them, sanctions can and will not be imposed while big brother is escalating this one sided campaign and refusing to acknowledge the existence of the other sides involved. It is plain to see that the US has moved away from a more impartial overseer and part of the blame for the middle East situation should be laid at there door for losing perspective.

Another point I'd like to make is that you guys are repeating yoursleves a fair bit, and both of you are ignoring good points made by the other. I think personally the discussion needs to move forward because playing the blame game against Israel is all very well but 20 pages later twe still haven't convinced Yonoz that what Israel did is wrong, do you think there is much chance we ever can?

OK Yonoz I put up a suggestion of how to handle the situation, it appears you had no interest in someone answering your question or that you did not like my answer, in either case can we ask what you would have done in this situation, everything the same or perhaps changed your tack? Time for you assume the position of arm chair general, since you are obviously in the most knowledgeable position, living as you do in Israel and having had experience with the situation first hand, what is it you would have done, would do now, and will do to tackle the situation in the future?

 

[Hurkyl]

You are Arabs with a different religion that others, but you are Arabs neither the less. You are using the fact that (disgusting as it is) hezbollah are using gurrilea warfair tactics against you, as the excuse behind the disproportional amount of Lebanese lifes that have been taken.

If you're going to accuse Israel if actually wanting to slaughter Lebanese citizens, then come right out and say it.

 

[Anttech]

Wanting is a very strong term, and not the one I used, nor will.

Deliberate killing of civilians, and UN Observers because of the Israeli perceived need to and specifically in the context of trying to destroy Hezbollah is different than *wanting* to.

Are you trying to get an emotional reaction, Hurkyl?

 

[Anttech]

http://www.itv.com/news/world_783f5cda9528072c5e0da70ea805110e.html
The second in command to Osama bin Laden has warned that al-Qaeda will not stand idle while Israelis "burn the Muslim brothers in Gaza and Lebanon".

In a reference to the US and its allies the deputy leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, said that the bombs being dropped on Lebanon "are not purely Israeli but provided and financed by all the crusaders alliance countries."

In a taped message broadcast by the Arab satellite network al-Jazeera, Zawahiri said that al-Qaeda now saw "all the world as a battlefield open in front of us."

Zawahiri wore a grey robe and white turban. A picture of the burning World Trade Centre was on the wall behind him along with pictures of two other militants.

Blah Blah Blah. of course Al-Qaeda had to get in on the action. So I wonder where they stand on the Christians and Jews that are being bombed by Israel in Lebanon? I wonder what exactly they intend on doing? Considering they are Sunni's not Sh'ites.

 

[mbrmbrg]

Are you trying to get an emotional reaction, Hurkyl?

It seems to me like the last two pages have been pretty emotional all around, maybe the al queada angle won't get so emotional (unless, of course, some of our posters are al qeada members )

This was in yesterday's NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/opinion/26haykel.html?_r=1&oref=slogin"

what if everyone just imploded out of frustration?? in my dreams...

 

[Yonoz]

Just popped into post this: http://www.nysun.com/article/36860"

A Canadian U.N. observer, one of four killed at a UNIFIL position near the southern Lebanese town of Khiyam on Tuesday, sent an e-mail to his former commander, a Canadian retired major-general, Lewis MacKenzie, in which he wrote that Hezbollah fighters were "all over" the U.N. position, Mr. MacKenzie said. Hezbollah troops, not the United Nations, were Israel's target, the deceased observer wrote.

"We've received e-mails from him a few days ago and he was describing the fact that he was taking fire within, in one case, three meters of his position ‘for tactical necessity — not being targeted,'" Mr. MacKenzie said he wrote.

In one such e-mail, obtained by The New York Sun, Hess-von Kruedener wrote about heavy IDF artillery and aerial bombardment "within 2 meters of our position." The Israeli shooting, he added, "has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity."

The correspondence between the trooper and former commander amounted to "veiled speech in the military," Mr. MacKenzie, who once commanded the U.N. troops in Bosnia, told the CBC. "What he was telling us was Hezbollah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them, and that's a favorite trick by people who don't have representation in the U.N. They use the U.N. as shields knowing that they cannot be punished for it."

 

[Hurkyl]

Wanting is a very strong term, and not the one I used, nor will.

Deliberate killing of civilians, and UN Observers because of the Israeli perceived need to and specifically in the context of trying to destroy Hezbollah is different than *wanting* to.

Are you trying to get an emotional reaction, Hurkyl?

No, I am not trying to get an emotional reaction.

Your last couple posts sounded like a thinly veiled accusation that Israelis have a desire to kill Lebanese civilians, and were jumping upon this opportunity to get away with it under the pretense of self defense.

However, it wasn't crystal clear, and I wanted you to come out and say it if that's what you meant.

But "want" was maybe too strong a word, since it still sounds like the you're saying the thing I thought you were saying.

Deliberate killing of civilians, and UN Observers because of the Israeli perceived need to​

This sounds very much like you're saying that, for the Israelis, the point of this war is to kill civilians.

 

[kyleb]

Just popped into post this: http://www.nysun.com/article/36860"

That is curious:

The statement said the Security Council "is deeply shocked an distressed by the firing by the Israeli Defense Forces on a United Nations Observer post in southern Lebanon on 25 July, 2006, which caused the death of four U.N. military observers."

Israel has apologized and called the incident a mistake. U.N. officials said they asked Israel a dozen times to stop bombing near the post in the hours before it was destroyed.
...

Israel's U.N. ambassador, Dan Gillerman, called the statement "fair and balanced" and again criticized U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan for saying the shelling appeared deliberate.

"During war, mistakes and tragedies happen,"

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N27419417.htm

So if the email is right, the ambassador is wrong.

 

[Office_Shredder]

So if the email is right, the ambassador is wrong.

How so? The striking of the UN observers would have been accidental

 

[Anttech]

How so? The striking of the UN observers would have been accidental

With laser guided missiles, after 10 radio calls to the Israel command post explaining where they are. The UN post has been there for years, it has the Blue UN Flag outside, it is well documented. If it was an accident then, I wonder how many undocumented accidence have been happening in Beriut!

 

[Anttech]

Deliberate killing of civilians, and UN Observers because of the Israeli perceived need to

Is a nice snippet of what I actually said:

Deliberate killing of civilians, and UN Observers because of the Israeli perceived need to and specifically in the context of trying to destroy Hezbollah is different than *wanting* to.

Ever heard of the term 'collateral damage' which the US likes to go on about as if it is acceptable, as long as its not US citizens.

 

[Yonoz]

So if the email is right, the ambassador is wrong.

What is he wrong about? Mistakes and tragedies don't happen during war?

 

[Yonoz]

With laser guided missiles, after 10 radio calls to the Israel command post explaining where they are. The UN post has been there for years, it has the Blue UN Flag outside, it is well documented. If it was an accident then, I wonder how many undocumented accidence have been happening in Beriut!

We all wonder that. It still does not mean it was deliberate, it's clear from the e-mails that the Israeli fire, which was as close as "2 metres" to the post "has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity". "Tactical necessity" apparently implies that the Hizbullah guerrilas were near enough to the UN post and apparently engaging in some activity that would necessitate Israeli fire, even in the eyes of those who were close enough to have been hit.

 

[Yonoz]

Ever heard of the term 'collateral damage' which the US likes to go on about as if it is acceptable, as long as its not US citizens.

So are you saying Israel should allow its own citizens to be killed simply because to remove the threat would cost Lebanese lives? Are our leaders to make a calculation of the projected deaths on either side? How many deaths can 12000 rockets cause?

 

[Anttech]

We all wonder that. It still does not mean it was deliberate, it's clear from the e-mails that the Israeli fire, which was as close as "2 metres" to the post "has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity". "Tactical necessity" apparently implies that the Hizbullah guerrillas were near enough to the UN post and apparently engaging in some activity that would necessitate Israeli fire, even in the eyes of those who were close enough to have been hit.

Thats a contradiction, make your mind up. Either they didnt fire on the UN post or they did, tactical necessity is irrelevant. UN Observers are not acceptable 'collateral damage' under any circumstances, and I truly hope this isn't made a precedence! They are the eyes and ears of the world, and allow us (the rest of the world) to ensure you are playing by the rules. Its truly doesn't look good, what you did there.

So are you saying Israel should allow its own citizens to be killed simply because to remove the threat would cost Lebanese lives? Are our leaders to make a calculation of the projected deaths on either side? How many deaths can 12000 rockets cause?

You arent removing the threat, yet you keep asserting that. Anyway again, you are reading what you want. I am saying that you are punishing the whole of Lebanon to get at the few. Israel it seems, with all its experience at Counter terrorism doesn't have a clue about how to conduct its-self in this type of war.

The amount of deaths 12,000 rockets could cause is vast, yet you have had about 50 die. Your F16's probably have killed more in one raid.

 

[Yonoz]

You like to read what you want, don't you?
You are Arabs with a different religion that others, but you are Arabs neither the less.

If that's the way you view things, fine. Just make sure you apply the same standards to both sides. If you treat Hizbullah's terrorism as an axiom, you should do the same with Israel's response. If you think Israel is making a mistake because the fighting increases support for Hizbullah, be aware it's the same with Israeli public opinion.

You are using the fact that (disgusting as it is) hezbollah are using gurrilea warfair tactics against you, as the excuse behind the disproportional amount of Lebanese lifes that have been taken.

Disproportionate to what exactly? Israeli casualties? We are not motivated by retribution. We measure the proportion according to the risk to our civilians. How many deaths can 12000 rockets cause?

I was being Ironic! Its part of the problem you know, the lopsided generosity that has been shown to Israel as oppose to any other ME country. People arent stupid, they see this with there own eyes. Look at Palestine, its literally, inside Israel yet it is so poor.

Please, you don't think the west's been generous to other ME countries? Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai, UAE - I'm sure Schrodinger's Dog can tell you about all his country's friends, including British Aerospace management's royal treatment of the Saudi Prince, how easy it is to break the law when you're a major exporter. You see, the American moguls haven't invented anything, they're just really good at it. It's only now that there are no European superpowers that you look down on these practices.

Allow me to reciprocate by questioning your world's morals. IMO the west's newfound ideals are simply a fresh disguise for your own agendas. No one really cares about the Palestinians, the only time they got your attention was when they hijacked planes. No one tried to appease the Arab world before the oil embargo - sh*t, the noble "Brits" and the oh-so-diplomatic French tried to take the Suez Canal by force only 50 years ago (it was the Americans that stopped it - how do you explain that?). Europe was suckling on Arab resources like it did with Africa before. This new love affair is nothing more than foreign policy, meant to ensure a successful future for your nations. You did not respect the Arabs until they forced you to, just as you do not respect the Tibetans and Kurds today. Are you really aware of what's happening at every corner of this globe? Or are you being spoonfed propaganda? Why is there no attention given to Chinese human organ trafficking? Russian crimes in Chechnya? You complain about the Palestinians being poor - how about an entire continent that Europe drained dry last century? It's different today though, right?
One form of colonialism replaces another. At least cowboy diplomacy is straight forward. Now that they're the only superpower you look down at the Americans, thinking yourselves to be so righteous - when in fact it's nothing more than a modern manifestation of that well-repressed but strongly primal sense of nationalism.

 

[Yonoz]

Thats a contradiction, make your mind up. Either they didnt fire on the UN post or they did, tactical necessity is irrelevant.

I don't see the contradiction there. The IDF targetted the Hizbullah guerrilas that "swarmed" the post.

UN Observers are not acceptable 'collateral damage' under any circumstances, and I truly hope this isn't made a precedence!

Are Israeli civilians acceptable 'collateral damage'? Because it seems perfectly acceptable to you that Israel stop defending them.

They are the eyes and ears of the world, and allow us (the rest of the world) to ensure you are playing by the rules.

Well it's a shame you didn't ensure the Lebanese are.

Its truly doesn't look good, what you did there.

We're not here to put on a show for you. The UN observer himself wrote the fire was for "tactical necessity".

You arent removing the threat, yet you keep asserting that.

I'm sorry, I didn't know you had the schedule. Got a better way of removing that threat?

Anyway again, you are reading what you want. I am saying that you are punishing the whole of Lebanon to get at the few.

I think I know better than you what is motivating us right now, and it's not a need for punishment.

Israel it seems, with all its experience at Counter terrorism doesn't have a clue about how to conduct its-self in this type of war.

Please enlighten us. I didn't know your country was faced with the exact same threats.

The amount of deaths 12,000 rockets could cause is vast, yet you have had about 50 die.

I'm sorry we have such a low death count, would you like more of us to die? Defence is quite useless when done retroactively.

Your F16's probably have killed more in one raid.

It's quite clear that you view us with prejudice. Try looking at facts, not assumptions.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

If that's the way you view things, fine. Just make sure you apply the same standards to both sides. If you treat Hizbullah's terrorism as an axiom, you should do the same with Israel's response. If you think Israel is making a mistake because the fighting increases support for Hizbullah, be aware it's the same with Israeli public opinion.

Disproportionate to what exactly? Israeli casualties? We are not motivated by retribution. We measure the proportion according to the risk to our civilians. How many deaths can 12000 rockets cause?

Please, you don't think the west's been generous to other ME countries? Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai, UAE - I'm sure Schrodinger's Dog can tell you about all his country's friends, including British Aerospace management's royal treatment of the Saudi Prince, how easy it is to break the law when you're a major exporter. You see, the American moguls haven't invented anything, they're just really good at it. It's only now that there are no European superpowers that you look down on these practices.

Allow me to reciprocate by questioning your world's morals. IMO the west's newfound ideals are simply a fresh disguise for your own agendas. No one really cares about the Palestinians, the only time they got your attention was when they hijacked planes. No one tried to appease the Arab world before the oil embargo - sh*t, the noble "Brits" and the oh-so-diplomatic French tried to take the Suez Canal by force only 50 years ago (it was the Americans that stopped it - how do you explain that?). Europe was suckling on Arab resources like it did with Africa before. This new love affair is nothing more than foreign policy, meant to ensure a successful future for your nations. You did not respect the Arabs until they forced you to, just as you do not respect the Tibetans and Kurds today. Are you really aware of what's happening at every corner of this globe? Or are you being spoonfed propaganda? Why is there no attention given to Chinese human organ trafficking? Russian crimes in Chechnya? You complain about the Palestinians being poor - how about an entire continent that Europe drained dry last century? It's different today though, right?
One form of colonialism replaces another. At least cowboy diplomacy is straight forward. Now that they're the only superpower you look down at the Americans, thinking yourselves to be so righteous - when in fact it's nothing more than a modern manifestation of that well-repressed but strongly primal sense of nationalism.

Yes the worlds a mess, doesn't mean you have to contribute to it, or that your given cart blanche to, we're all at fault but that doesn't mean we can't put pressure on a race to stop what we percieve as evil. Morality is not a bank, you can't look at someone elses account in order to justify your own immorality, it doesn't work that way. This is not a childish situation of recirimination excused by the evils of others, he started it is not a valid argument, your argument is a straw man I'm afraid.

You should try looking up the Lavon affair since you mentioned the Suez crisis, an example of attempted assisination of civillians by Mossad in order to stall a peace process, your right of course, Israelis dont't target civillians deliberately,they leave it up to Zionist terrorists such as Irgun or intelligence, although I've seen precious little sign of intelligence in this war

The English arms trade and greed for cash to fuel wars is a shamefull embarrasesement to the UK and one I will not excuse, it frankly disgusts me, You can Kaching in on death by supplying war zones with cash, that's morally repugnant whether it be US, UK or Russian arms the dissidents are wielding. MP's ahave lost jobs over illicit arms deals, frankly they should lose jobs over the legal ones in most cases as well.

 

[Anttech]

Ok Yonzo, if you want I will look at Israel with the same respect as I look at hezbollah. IE NONE this is absolutely it seems what you want. The world expects more from your 'supposed' civilised country, but you don't and can't produce. So I will put you in the same respect category as Hezbollah. Are you happy now? Or would you prefer we criticize you, because we expect you to have a higher standard, with respect to human rights, than a terrorist organisation?

I am amazed at this statement:

I don't see the contradiction there. The IDF targetted the Hizbullah guerrilas that "swarmed" the post.

So you deliberately targeted the post which you knew had UN OBSERVERS inside? Perhaps answer the question this time, rather than trying to divert to something else. Do you believe that the UN Observers are acceptable collateral damage?

edit:

Would you care to explain how you target a moving 'swam' with laser guided missiles? hmmmm Usually Laser guided missiles are used to 'take out' stationary objects.

 

[Yonoz]

Ok Yonzo, if you want I will look at Israel with the same respect as I look at hezbollah. IE NONE this is absolutely it seems what you want.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect" is an attitude of acknowledging the feelings and interests of another party in a relationship, and of treating as consequential for the self the helping or harming of the other. Though most commonly referring to interpersonal relationships, it can be used between animals, groups and institutions including countries. Respect does not necessarily imply deference, but a respectful attitude rules out unconsidered selfish behaviour. The concept of respect predates, and does not rely on, the existence of the concept of rights.

Respect is sometimes loosely used as a synonym for politeness or manners, though these are behaviours, whereas respect is an attitude. Intercultural differences in behaviours, self-perception and outward appearance may result in the unintentional appearance of disrespect.

Many movements have at different times claimed respect as the core element, including raver-culture, Islam and the United States Marine Corps.

You respect Hizbullah. You excuse their behaviour as a rule of nature. You expect Israel to continually be attacked only to be neutered by the world when it tries to defend itself:

The world expects more from your 'supposed' civilised country, but you don't and can't produce. So I will put you in the same respect category as Hezbollah. Are you happy now? Or would you prefer we criticize you, because we expect you to have a higher standard, with respect to human rights, than a terrorist organisation?

Oh but we do have a higher standard. We sanctify life, while they sanctify death. When we attack, we do so to prevent harm - when they attack, they mean to inflict it. We drop leaflets and send out radio broadcasts and recorded phone messages. They send out threats. Having read the definition for respect, I hope you realize this doesn't mean we're any more respected than they are. Quite the opposite. Just like the UN is disrespected by almost everyone.

I am amazed at this statement:

I don't see the contradiction there. The IDF targetted the Hizbullah guerrilas that "swarmed" the post.

So you deliberately targeted the post which you knew had UN OBSERVERS inside?

I don't see how that can be misinterpreted like that. Read the sentence - slowly this time, you missed a few words in the middle there. The IDF targeted the **Hizbullah guerillas** that swarmed the post.

Perhaps answer the question this time, rather than trying to divert to something else. Do you believe that the UN Observers are acceptable collateral damage?

It depends on the threat. In some cases - yes. First, they are soldiers. Unlike civilians, they have chosen this profession and volunteered for their service. So obviously if a civilian can be an acceptable collateral damage, so can UN observers. Just like I would accept that if I participate in a battle, the enemy will try to kill me. It's not that the enemy soldier's driven by malice, he's a soldier just like I'd be and we'd be in a clear battle, and I would accept the fact that he would try to kill me. I do not accept that civilians are targetted for the purpose of killing them alone. I do not accept that guerillas hide among civilians and UN posts.
Second, Israel is not directly obligated to the peacekeepers. It is, however, directly and solely obligated to its citizens. The UN is obligated to its observers, and Israel is obligated to the UN, but not at the price of its own citizens. If I had to chose between a UN observer and an Israeli civilian, I would definitely accept such collateral damage. I know you'll be quick to judge me now, just think it over and ask yourself if any other country would not fire at those attacking its civilians, even if they're doing so from a UN post.
Now perhaps you can answer my question - what would you call the Israelis that will die from Hizbullah rockets if Israel agreed to a ceasefire? Is that not collateral damage? Are you not expecting Israel to accept it?

 

[Yonoz]

A funny caricature in the newspaper today. The officer's saying "That can't be. Only we have anxiety victims". Just thought you should see there's still a "left" here.

 

[Yonoz]

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