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Sadmemo
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Would you please tell me if UFO is for real? ?
Thank you
Thank you
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Sadmemo said:UFo, I mean if it is real thing to believe in ?
James R said:There is obviously no really convincing evidence that we are being visited by extraterrestrials, since if there was it would be general knowledge.
Believers in alien spacecraft visiting Earth generally present as evidence fuzzy photos or films, anecdotal stories, and other dubious physical "evidence" which could have other explanations. There is nothing convincing.
If ET ever does visit Earth, I think its existence will be very obvious to all. If YOU were an extraterrestrial, what would you do? Kidnap somebody few people will believe, or land your spaceship on the White House lawn?
In this situation, the answer to the usual remark, “If there are advanced extraterrestrials around, why don’t they contact us openly and officially and teach us their science and technology” seems obvious. Would any country on this planet send an official delegation to the mountain gorilla territory to introduce themselves “openly and officially” to the gorilla authorities? Would they shake hands, make agreements and exchange signatures with the dominant males? About teaching us their science and technology, who would volunteer to teach physics, mathematics and engineering to a bunch of gorillas? In addition, one has to take into account the limits of the brain capabilities, independently of the culture of education. For example, let us ask ourselves how many bananas would be necessary for the most intelligent gorillas to understand the equations of electromagnetism (even if they watch TV or listen to the radio).
http://www.unknowncountry.com/mindframe/opinion/?id=96
I don't buy the analogy. It has yet to be shown that gorillas are capable of understanding such concepts. Evidence seems to suggest that their maximum intellectual development is somewhere around the same as six-year-old human. Humans, at the very least, would be able to hold a conversation with an alien species (assuming they can get a translator).PIT2 said:I once read this story which compared humans relating to aliens with gorilla's relating to humans:
Few beyond the most mentally ill crackpots believe that, Ivan - that's The Disclosure Project you're talking about. Believe what you want about those alleged 300 witnesses, but Greer himself (Hoagland too) is certifiable. Those "UFOologists" who you cited in our last big discussion on the subject, who have at least a little scientific credibility would never consider it "common knowledge".Ivan Seeking said:Also, many people do consider an ET presence to be common knowledge.
Well, I'd tend to disagree with that. Some of the supposedly more compelling don't show objects, but lights. Remember the promising Mexican UFOs flying in formation (the oil rigs) from last year? Its very rare that there is a clear photo/video of an object and virtually never that there is a clear backdrop for scale/distance, etc. (since they are, after all, mostly in the sky). My biggest beef has never been with hoaxes (I have little doubt about the sincerity of most people who submit photos/videos), its about overzealous interpretation of blurry photos and no-depth-perception light patterns.Next, there are plenty of clear photos and videos but no way to prove that they weren't hoaxed.
By definition, a UFO is a real observation of an unidentified phenomena. So yes, they are real. But be careful: people often equate UFOs and flying saucers. They are not the same thing. UFOs are certainly real, but few credible scientists consider alien spacecraft to be visiting us.Sadmemo said:Would you please tell me if UFO is for real? ?
Thank you
russ_watters said:Humans, at the very least, would be able to hold a conversation with an alien species (assuming they can get a translator).
• Sporadic, often very specialized memory impairment.
• Spontaneous episodes of invisibility.
• Passing through physical obstacles that the experiencer is on a collision course with.
• Spontaneous episodes of dissociation producing a gap in consciousness; a unique sense of non-existence that feels like you have slipped into some other plane of reality for a time. This should be differentiated from functioning on 'automatic pilot.'
• Simultaneous awareness of events or objects in multiple planes of reality; a variation on the dissociation (above) in which consciousness remains functional in several dimensions simultaneously.
• Free-fall for a long distance with no injuries. For example, falling from a cliff or an airplane and being drawn gently toward the Earth as though encapsulated in a reduced gravitational field.
• Encountering two dimensional objects which behave like three dimensional objects.
• Full, unobstructed view of a luminous, glowing sphere that should be partially hidden by trees or shrubs. However, the trees or shrubs seem not to exist between the object and the viewer.
• Materialization and dematerialization of objects in the environment.
• Feeling an emotional, spiritual, or psychological 'alien state' either telepathically, empathetically, or remembered on your own.
• Rearrangement of objects in the environment to effect a sudden, miraculous rescue of a person.
• Frequent occurrence of striking synchronicities.
• Consciously remembering UFO related material by reliving the incident through any of the senses or abstract conceptualization, as though it were happening at the moment.
http://www.alienjigsaw.com/Part_III/MaryKerfoot3.html
Pengwuino said:If they are capable of coming to Earth so many times... then coming down and 'abducting' people so many times... why haven't they touched down in a somewhat major city yet. I don't think there shy or anything... and I am not sure they are attempting to learn about our world using backwoodsmen as their source...
matthyaouw said:It would be a fairly big risk to take don't you think? We are well capable of defending ourselves, and they may know that (I've heard 'reports' of planes persuing UFOs). Landing amongst a few thousand or million confused, potentially hostile creatures wouldn't be the wisest idea in my oppinon. Also, who says that any 'visitors' we have are interested in our culture and people? We have no idea what could motivate an alien race to explore, so it would be foolish to say that they would want to make official contact.
But that's just it - gorillas don't communicate in an intelligent way - they don't have the intelligence to think about anything beyond their own immediate existence. For example, a gorilla is not capable of understanding the concept of light, much less understanding that an alien came from a planet 300 light years away. It is a much, much greater leap to go from gorilla to man than from man to space-faring alien.PIT2 said:They may well be so far ahead of us that our communication is to them like gorilla communication is to us.
russ_watters said:But that's just it - gorillas don't communicate in an intelligent way - they don't have the intelligence to think about anything beyond their own immediate existence. For example, a gorilla is not capable of understanding the concept of light, much less understanding that an alien came from a planet 300 light years away.
It is a much, much greater leap to go from gorilla to man than from man to space-faring alien.
Besides, Olum’s arguments implying that inflation must necessarily aggravate the (very serious) ‘missing-alien’ problem do not seem very convincing and it is some brane world scenarios [2], in our opinion, what could in fact aggravate dramatically this problem. The reason is the following. If there exist thousands, or millions, of parallel universes separated from ours through extra-dimensions, it would be natural then to expect that some proportion of these universes would have the same laws of physics as ours (presumably half of these would be of matter and the other half of anti-matter), and many of the corresponding advanced civilizations would master the techniques to travel or ‘jump’ through (at least some of) the extra dimensions. This opens up enormous possibilities regarding the expansion of advanced civilizations simultaneously through several parallel universes with the same laws of physics, resulting in multidimensional empires. It could even happen that the expansion to other parallel galaxies through extra dimensions could be easier, with lower cost, than the expansion inside one’s own galaxy3.
In many other universes, however, the laws of physics would be different, corresponding perhaps to different vacua of the ‘would be’ ultimate Theory of Everything, resulting probably in ‘shadow matter’ universes with respect to ours. This means that shadow matter would only interact with our matter gravitationally, in the case it would be brought to our Universe using appropiate technology. This does not mean, however, that the shadow universes would be necessarily empty of intelligent beings. If some of them had advanced civilizations, some of their individuals could even ‘jump’ to our Universe, but not for colonization purposes since they would not even see our planets and stars, which they would pass through almost unaware (they would only notice the gravitational pull towards their centers). And the other way around, we could neither see, nor talk to, the shadow visitors, although they could perhaps try to communicate with the ‘would be’ intelligent beings of our Universe, through gravitational waves for example. Regarding anti-matter universes, the intelligent anti-observers would not send colonizers either4.
http://xxx.arxiv.cornell.edu/abs/physics/0308078
Pengwuino said:What i don't get is how one can think that we somehow pose a threat to them. If we are basing our argument off of these videos nad pictures we see... they obviously have technology we can't even dream of right now so what threat can we really pose? Some accounts say they have lasers... some say they are invisible to radar... some say they can be invisible whenever they choose... i would take the jump into thinking that they would have figured a way to shoot down a missile or airplane if they needed to.
And i would think they are interested in us seeing as how, supposedly, they have visited us a large # of times.
matthyaouw said:You can't comment on their ability to defend themselves or the threat that they pose, as no ship has ever been proven to exist, never mind recovered (to our knowledge). They could be hard as nails, or a single bullet could do sufficient damage to make a ship un-space-worthy. We simply have no way of knowing.
matthyaouw said:Who is to say it is us? It may be any aspect of our planet that they are interested in studying.
Next, there are plenty of clear photos and videos but no way to prove that they weren't hoaxed. Additionally, some of the evidence is quite compelling.
Finally, we can't assume that ET would act and think as we do.
Humans would kidnap some people and be undetected at first to assess the situation.
What would be the purpose in us making ourselves known right away?
We wouldn't want to bring panic to their world would we?
Ivan Seeking said:I disagree. First of all, believers don't present evidence; alleged witnesses do.
Ivan Seeking said:Also, many people do consider an ET presence to be common knowledge.
Hypothetical question.Pengwuino said:Well again, like i siad... why are they hypothetically "abducting" people who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground lol.
Ivan Seeking said:Finally, we can't assume that ET would act and think as we do. So extrapolating what makes sense to us as something logical for an ET has no basis.
I read a great sci-fi story many, many years ago. Can't remember the author, might have been Clarke or Bradbury.Pengwuino said:What i don't get is how one can think that we somehow pose a threat to them. If we are basing our argument off of these videos nad pictures we see... they obviously have technology we can't even dream of right now so what threat can we really pose?
James R said:Ivan:
There have been many cases exposed as hoaxes. Which is more likely, do you think: that all cases are hoaxes (or mistakes), or that ET really is visiting Earth?
I have trouble buying that one. I can't see why an interstellar traveling ET would have motivations fundamentally different to ours.
Why come here at all, if not to make their presence known to us? There are plenty of other planets, most probably uninhabited. Why pick Earth, if not to communicate with Earth people?
Would you really panic if a flying saucer landed on the White House lawn? I don't think I would.
Daminc said:For example, Darwin crossing the vast seas to explore new lands and to try and catalogue new species of flora and fauna...I would bet that he, and the rest of the crew, didn't know how to build the ship, or why the currents worked etc etc.
I think the fact that we are able to learn anything about science - much less that we are fairly close to figuring out just about everything - shows that there simply can't be as much difference between us and an alien race as there is between us an gorillas. You could almost write an equation:PIT2 said:Perhaps aliens think the same about us?
I disagree.
We aren't talking about evolution, we are talking about the ability to gain knowledge. Knowledge of science, technology, etc. Knowledge progresses without evolution once a species becomes capable of it. We are capable of it: gorillas are not.If evolution can make such a difference between species on the same planet, just imagine what difference it can make between species on different planets (with perhaps a billion years more of evolution).
The paper (I didn't get all the way through it) pursues two separate lines of reasoning:Heres the paper on the gorilla theory:
He said hoaxes or mistakes, so you didn't answer the question. Quite obviously it would be impossible for all to be hoaxes since some have been proven to be mistakes - so the question is: do you believe it is more likely that some of those still unexplained are really aliens or that all are either hoaxes or mistakes?PIT2 said:There are many more cases that have not been exposed as hoaxes.
The idea that they are all hoaxes, is very unlikely. In fact, i dare to state that it is impossible.
The problem with imagining different motives or even different types of species is the same as the questions we see in the Relativity forum about imagining what Relativity has to say if you are travleing faster than light. Science, logic, reality, put real constraints on that speculation. Consider these:Its not that hard to imagine some fundamentally different motivations.
But we just can't tell.
russ_watters said:I think the fact that we are able to learn anything about science - much less that we are fairly close to figuring out just about everything - shows that there simply can't be as much difference between us and an alien race as there is between us an gorillas. You could almost write an equation:
Gorilla knowledge of science (g): 0
Human knowledge of science (h): .9 (fraction of all there is to know)
Alien knowledge of science (a): .999
g/h [is infinite] > a/h
2. Advanced species could be among us and we wouldn't understand them.
Point 2 is logically flawed in several ways. Some are decribed above, but several more:
-First is that gorillas are, most certainly, aware of our existence. The problem is that they are incapable of communication. They see but do not understand. We don't even have clear proof (enough that a majority of scientists would vote for an affirmative conclusion) that other beings exist, so the question of being able to understand isn't relevant until an alien actually shakes hands with us.
-Scond, we have made serious attempts to communicate with gorillas (by the way, that fact itself also sets us apart from them). Aliens have not made similar attempts to communicate with us. So just walking around clueless is not a valid explanation.
There is speculation about other dimensions - even other universes. Such speculation is useless/irrelevant because even if such things exist, we could not, by definition, ever come into contact with them.