The IDF is a vile organisation.
I sometimes wish we would enter Iraq with such force.
We are playing a 'nice war' and it's leading to NOTHING that a real war wouldn't lead to except less dead Iraqis, more dead Americans, an illusion of a weak military, and less work getting done. In the end we are still hated, we still have spent a ton of money, and no one will be grateful regardless.
You can hate the IDF all you want but they are fighting a war, and are very good at it.
They're very good at blowing up civilians, yes.
Precision isn't always a reqirement for war.
I like to think that somehow Israel has a chance for peace in the middle east, and thus like to think that civilian casualties are holding things away from a solution.
However, the more time goes on, I think I'm starting to become apathetic about it all. Pessimistic would probably be a good description as well.
Oh, then it's just fine and dandy if they use tanks to fire into apartment blocks. :uhh:
The IDF"s recent "aggressive" tactics has resulted in LESS civilian palestian deaths and the blame is laid at the feet of their enemy that CHOOSES to hide it's weaponry and itself amongst civilians. Building bomb factories in residential areas is obviously (judging from peoples like Adams comments) a great political move but not very healthy for your citizens.
Okay, so given that the IDF crushes Palestinian towns with tanks, where should the defenders create their bombs? In their industrial areas, nicely separated from their own homes? Sorry, they can't. They are hemmed in by tanks, their industrial areas were flattened to make space for Israeli settlements, and the only place they can do anything at all is in their own homes, right amongst the other homes. Maybe if you were there, you could be really sneaky and make bombs in some invisible extra space that nobody else has been able to find yet.
War isn't fine and dandy.
I am simply stating that in a war, your goal is to win. Israel has developed a means to do such a thing. If it wanted to, Israel could easiy steamroll all of Palestine - why do you believe they don't? Or are you under the idea that they somehow can't?
They do steamroll it. However, it's a process, not an event.
Maybe if palestinians didn't target israeli civilian targets on purpose (particularly women and children on busses), then maybe Israel wouldn't be so pissed off.
If Mexico was doing the same thing in texas, do you think the US would just sit there and take it from them?
Or wait, maybe we should negotiate with people that simply won't stop stirring things up?
Well, the Texas thing makes no sense, since the Palestinians aren't messing around in someone else's territory.
Perhaps if the IDF wasn't killing Palestinian civilians as a matter of course, the Palestinians wouldn't be so pissed off.
Since a couple of thousand years ago.
Perhaps if you had followed the peace process at all where Israel has conceded to international demands, etc. and has repeatedly stopped attacking palestine, you would not believe that. There HAD been a lull in israeli attacks while the "peace process" was underway, but that was ended when several bus bombings took place, and IDF entered again.
Let's also not forget that Israel is the minority in the middle east being the only democracy around. That and it's also Jewish. And that the vast majority of countries in the area seem to dislike the fact that israel even exists, and would probably invade if it weren't for the US backing them, or for the IDF.
I guess majority opinion makes israel wrong in the middle east.
Should Iraq not exist then?
Both countries were created in the last century.
Both occupied land that already had people on it.
Both oppressed such people.
Australia, the US...well, every modern country wouldn't exist if you want to play your fallacy. The fact is that the jews came there LEGALLY. They bought up property LEGALLY. There were already jews before the balfour declaration. So which jews do you let stay, and which do you kick out?
Thank you, that about sums it up here.
Incorrect. The Israelites began by invading the area around 1,200 BC, and even after they were granted some small land there last century, they immediately launched aggressive campaigns against the locals.
WEll, this conversation just hit a sudden end.
Actually the land was not bought legally, in 1948 jut prior to the cretaion of the state of Israel only 6-8% of the land was legally owned by Jews Also a fair amount of the Jewish immigration was illegal. Before the Balfour declartion Jews were a tiny minority, even with large scale immigartion by 1948 they were still the minority. This was why the Arabs objected to the UN partition of Palestine as it gave the majority of the land to a minority, made up mostly of recent immigrants.
I don't know where you get your information from, but all the major ethnic groups in Iraq had been living there for centuries if not millenia, certainly the balance of power fell to Arab Sunni minority (with the Shi'ite Arabs being in the majority), but Iraq was not created by any immigration just the rather artificail bounbdaries that had been imposed by the British colonialist regime.
Okay, time for a history lesson.
Israelites, a Semitic people, apparently of nomadic origin, whose emergence in the Levant is identified with a shift of settlement at the start if the Iron Age (c. 1200 bc), when a new pattern of small villages dispersed in upland regions replaced the urban life of the Bronze Age. Explanations for this process range from the nomadic invasion thesis (derived from Biblical accounts in Exodus) to settlement of indigenous populations of nomads and brigands, to social revolution by the urban lower classes at the end of the Bronze Age. The Israelites' conquest of areas occupied by the Canaanites brought them into an ultimately successful conflict with the Philistines. The major building works carried out under the united kingdom belong to the reign of Solomon. The northern kingdom of Israel (see Samaria) was conquered by the Assyrians in the late 8th century BC, while the southern kingdom of Judah was reduced by the Babylonians in the early 6th century BC. See also Jerusalem.
Jerusalem, a city in the Judaean hills, Israel, which has been occupied for thousands of years and which has been excavated virtually continuously since the 1860s. Comparatively little remains of ancient Jerusalem, chiefly because of the repeated destructions suffered by the city (e.g. that of Titus in 70 AD) and later Byzantine and Islamic overbuilding. The first major construction at Jerusalem seems to have been the stone fortifications of the late Bronze Age. Jerusalem was captured by the Israelites under Davin in c.996 BC and extended to the north by Solomon, who built a temple and palace in an area later overbuilt by the Herodian temple platform, and by Hezekiah, whose water tunnel is still visible. Jerusalem was patronised by the Byzantine emperors beause of its Christian associations and by Islamic caliphs as a holy city. Most of the walls to be seen at Jerusalem are the work of Suleiman the Magnificent (1538-41 AD) on top of Herodian and Roman foundations, while the octagonal 'Dome of the Rock' (685-692 AD) is the most striking of the Islamic buildings in Jerusalem.
Canaanites, an ethnic group identified with the sophisticated urban civilisation of the Levant during the Bronze Age (see Hazor, Jericho, Lachish, Beit Mersim). The Canaanites were dislodged from much of their territory by the Israelites and Philistines, but much of their culture persisted among the Phoenicians.
Phoenicians, a Semitic people, the cultural heirs of the Canaanites, who flourished as traders from their ports of Byblos, Sidon, and Tyre during the 1st millennium BC. They are credited with the founding of Carthage and the invention of the alphabet.
Philistines, one of the Sea Peoples whose occupation of southern Palestine marks the beginning of the Iron Age in that region. The five chief cities of the Philistines (the 'Pentapolis') were Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gaza, Gath, and Ekron.
Iraq was created last century.
In the creation of Iraq, the Kurds were denied their own state and forced under the borders of the recognized Iraq.
Iraq has a history of Oppressing this region.
Iraq is a country because it is recognized as such. Whether you disagree or not, this is how countries are made. Borders are man made, and so are countries. There can be a moral claim by the American Indians, the Canadian Inuit, the Australian aborigines, as to their "birth right to the land", but I don't see anyone fighting for that to be done. Israel exists, as does every other country. An argument over borders, sure why not. An argument over removing Israel, an internationally recognized body, has no more weight than that to remove Palestine.
So I ask again - who is it you will kick out of Israel? Why is the state of Israel not viable? Why is a two state solution not alright?
And every single bit of it is fully irrelevant!
Perhaps we should give Kuwait back to Iraq, but then Iraq would go back to the Turks, who would return with others to the ottoman empire, who would then have to be divided for the roman empire, who would then have to be returned to the previous lands.....
Oh, I see, this just won't work!
Adam, how come you mention the Palestinian casualties, but not the 11 Israelis?
Separate names with a comma.