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Yet more deaths due to politicians and hatred

  1. May 11, 2004 #1
    The IDF is a vile organisation.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. May 11, 2004 #2
    I sometimes wish we would enter Iraq with such force.

    We are playing a 'nice war' and it's leading to NOTHING that a real war wouldn't lead to except less dead Iraqis, more dead Americans, an illusion of a weak military, and less work getting done. In the end we are still hated, we still have spent a ton of money, and no one will be grateful regardless.

    You can hate the IDF all you want but they are fighting a war, and are very good at it.
     
  4. May 11, 2004 #3
    They're very good at blowing up civilians, yes.
     
  5. May 12, 2004 #4
    Precision isn't always a reqirement for war.

    I like to think that somehow Israel has a chance for peace in the middle east, and thus like to think that civilian casualties are holding things away from a solution.
    However, the more time goes on, I think I'm starting to become apathetic about it all. Pessimistic would probably be a good description as well.
     
  6. May 12, 2004 #5
    Oh, then it's just fine and dandy if they use tanks to fire into apartment blocks. :uhh:
     
  7. May 12, 2004 #6

    kat

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    The IDF"s recent "aggressive" tactics has resulted in LESS civilian palestian deaths and the blame is laid at the feet of their enemy that CHOOSES to hide it's weaponry and itself amongst civilians. Building bomb factories in residential areas is obviously (judging from peoples like Adams comments) a great political move but not very healthy for your citizens.
     
  8. May 12, 2004 #7
    Okay, so given that the IDF crushes Palestinian towns with tanks, where should the defenders create their bombs? In their industrial areas, nicely separated from their own homes? Sorry, they can't. They are hemmed in by tanks, their industrial areas were flattened to make space for Israeli settlements, and the only place they can do anything at all is in their own homes, right amongst the other homes. Maybe if you were there, you could be really sneaky and make bombs in some invisible extra space that nobody else has been able to find yet.
     
  9. May 12, 2004 #8

    War isn't fine and dandy.
    I am simply stating that in a war, your goal is to win. Israel has developed a means to do such a thing. If it wanted to, Israel could easiy steamroll all of Palestine - why do you believe they don't? Or are you under the idea that they somehow can't?
     
  10. May 12, 2004 #9
    They do steamroll it. However, it's a process, not an event.
     
  11. May 12, 2004 #10
    Maybe if palestinians didn't target israeli civilian targets on purpose (particularly women and children on busses), then maybe Israel wouldn't be so pissed off.

    If Mexico was doing the same thing in texas, do you think the US would just sit there and take it from them?

    Or wait, maybe we should negotiate with people that simply won't stop stirring things up?
     
  12. May 12, 2004 #11
    Well, the Texas thing makes no sense, since the Palestinians aren't messing around in someone else's territory.

    Perhaps if the IDF wasn't killing Palestinian civilians as a matter of course, the Palestinians wouldn't be so pissed off.
     
  13. May 12, 2004 #12
    since when?!?!
     
  14. May 12, 2004 #13
    Since a couple of thousand years ago.
     
  15. May 12, 2004 #14
    Perhaps if you had followed the peace process at all where Israel has conceded to international demands, etc. and has repeatedly stopped attacking palestine, you would not believe that. There HAD been a lull in israeli attacks while the "peace process" was underway, but that was ended when several bus bombings took place, and IDF entered again.

    Let's also not forget that Israel is the minority in the middle east being the only democracy around. That and it's also Jewish. And that the vast majority of countries in the area seem to dislike the fact that israel even exists, and would probably invade if it weren't for the US backing them, or for the IDF.

    I guess majority opinion makes israel wrong in the middle east.
     
  16. May 12, 2004 #15
    Should Iraq not exist then?

    Both countries were created in the last century.
    Both occupied land that already had people on it.
    Both oppressed such people.

    Australia, the US...well, every modern country wouldn't exist if you want to play your fallacy. The fact is that the jews came there LEGALLY. They bought up property LEGALLY. There were already jews before the balfour declaration. So which jews do you let stay, and which do you kick out?
     
  17. May 12, 2004 #16
    [​IMG]
     
  18. May 12, 2004 #17
    Thank you, that about sums it up here.
     
  19. May 12, 2004 #18
    Incorrect. The Israelites began by invading the area around 1,200 BC, and even after they were granted some small land there last century, they immediately launched aggressive campaigns against the locals.
     
  20. May 12, 2004 #19
    WEll, this conversation just hit a sudden end.
     
  21. May 12, 2004 #20

    jcsd

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    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Actually the land was not bought legally, in 1948 jut prior to the cretaion of the state of Israel only 6-8% of the land was legally owned by Jews Also a fair amount of the Jewish immigration was illegal. Before the Balfour declartion Jews were a tiny minority, even with large scale immigartion by 1948 they were still the minority. This was why the Arabs objected to the UN partition of Palestine as it gave the majority of the land to a minority, made up mostly of recent immigrants.

    I don't know where you get your information from, but all the major ethnic groups in Iraq had been living there for centuries if not millenia, certainly the balance of power fell to Arab Sunni minority (with the Shi'ite Arabs being in the majority), but Iraq was not created by any immigration just the rather artificail bounbdaries that had been imposed by the British colonialist regime.
     
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