Circuit problem with ammeter and unknown resistance

AI Thread Summary
The discussion revolves around solving a circuit problem involving a Wheatstone bridge with an unknown resistor Rx and an ammeter showing zero current. Participants emphasize that the ammeter's zero current indicates zero voltage across it, allowing it to be treated as a short circuit with negligible resistance. The challenge lies in deriving equations to solve for Rx, as multiple unknowns complicate the process. Participants suggest using Kirchhoff's voltage law to establish relationships between the resistors and the voltage source. Ultimately, the conversation highlights the importance of understanding circuit principles and the application of voltage dividers in this context.
  • #51
Well, ILS has been guiding me through to get to these equations so I thought that makes sense and that he's probably making a point to me knowing him :)

Let me outline my methodology.
Feel free to agree or disagree. o:)


Step 1: Use a sure fire method to create a set of equations.
In particular one that the OP started with, and is comfortable with (KVL).
On the way clarifying any issues that come along. (I think we resolved a couple of those! :smile:)

Step 2: Solve the set of equations yielding the answer (which should be good for a first Ooooh!).

Step 3: Look back at the problem, see what happened, and see how else it might have been done.

Step 4: Use an alternate and perhaps easier method and verify the result (coming perhaps to an Oooooooooooooh! :cool:)


As yet, I'm still at step 1, and I think the OP's understanding has increased significantly about how circuits and Kirchhoff's laws work. :smile:

I'll have to admit it took longer than I at first expected.
However, I prefer not to rush as long as there is no deadline. :wink:
 
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  • #53
I agree that equation 1 with I0, I1 and I2 is unneeded. It appears to just overcomplicates things to add I0 to the equation.

I am now considering just 4 equations then. It looks like it takes a bit of work to solve it. I'll have some college time this evening so I'll post back later my results. Sorry I am procrastinating with this, but I am really enjoying myself working on this exercise and I want to take my time and do it right and get to the right conclusions. Had a bit of insomnia lately due to my new job bumping in with school and helping other students, so couldn't get to it. :(


Very cool notation you have in the center for "Power Source" (מקְור מתְח).

Heh ;) Do you know Hebrew then?
 
  • #54
What I mean about "grounding a point" is that you'll later find that when people design circuits they often times have one reference point from which all other voltages are referenced, and this point is said to have 0 volts (0 is really arbitrary if you think about it because we are really just doing a potential difference, but it makes sense because you don't 5-0 is more trivially 5 than if we gave ground 1V and were subtracting one all the time; e.g. 6-1). This point is usually tied to earth, the Earth ground is kind of the ultimate reservoir of electrons, but is sometimes simply tied to chassis of a box (or is sometimes just a "signal ground" on the plane of a PCB). I didn't really want to go searching for a reference that had just the right information, so you'll have to take it from me, a lowly physicists who think he knows circuits well :p. In your circuit you can pick any point from which all other points would be referenced. Point C really makes the most sense to ground, and give zero potential.

Oh right, and the garden hose analogy. Since current is a flow, and water is a flow that's where the analogy begins. You can control the water flow by turning a spigot, analogous to voltage. Certain things, like gravel, may impede water flow just like resistors. The only thing is that I haven't really come up with an example of a water capacitor.

As for gneill's initial advice, which I was soon to echo after having read through the topic, let's address it now:

Wait a second! I agree with your i2 loop, but your i1 loop is opposite to what it should be, no? It goes from minus to plus!
As others have previously noted, you can assign whatever direction you want to your loops. If you went CCW around the right loop (indicating a CCW current) you would find out later, when you solved for the current, that you get a negative current (meaning that the actual current flow is opposite what you initially picked and really goes CW as we'd expect).

ILS, I agree that there a couple ways to solve this problem, and I fully embrace eventually tackling an alternate solution. I do, however, disagree with starting with the hardest. :p

Mind if I quickly outline our a more practical approach? Also, didn't there used to be letters on your diagram?

Let's do some KVL since that's how you started. Make both loops CCW, just to demonstrate that it will work.

Right loop:
Irht*Rx+Irght*R2+Vs=0
Left loop:
Ilft*R1+Ilft*R3-Vs=0
Now for the constraint from the problem:
We know that there is no current flowing through the ammeter, which means that the leftmost point and the rightmost point are at the same potential
-Irht*R2=Ilft*R1
(you could have also used the voltage loop if what I did was confusing, going CW Irht*R2+Ilft*R1=0)

So, now there are 3 eqns and 3 unknowns, wahoo! Note: for the constraint you could also do the other voltages,
-Irht*Rx=Ilft*R3.

There's other tricks that you could use to solve this problem really quickly. If you treat the leftmost point and rightmost point as voltage dividers (look it up if you haven't seen it), you just equate them and you get the answer presto, virtually no work involved!

Sorry if I stole anyone's thunder, but the amount of complexity in this problem was getting a bit absurd, beyond being practical for learning I felt.
 
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  • #55
Femme_physics said:
Heh ;) Do you know Hebrew then?
Doesn't everyone? :smile:
I recognize the characters and have rudimentary vocabulary from self-study אולפן.
But in this case, http://translate.google.com/#" came to the rescue. :blushing:

(caveat: for those wanting to try this, it requires setting up your keyboard for Hebrew. However, do this at your own peril :bugeye:, an accidental keystroke can suddenly change your keys from Latin to Hebrew and you'll spend the next hour trying to change it back.

Mindscrape said:
Sorry if I stole anyone's thunder, but the amount of complexity in this problem was getting a bit absurd, beyond being practical for learning I felt.

What is obvious to one person is often challenging to someone who may not be familiar, in this case, with linear circuit theory. So there is merit in discussing a problem from more than one angle, to learn how to arrive at the solution. This is similar to teaching a concept, by explaining it in different ways.

In fact, it is a good idea to solve these exercises using at least one more method. If you arrive at the same answer, there is a high likelihood your solution is correct. (ILS also alludes to this in step 4 of his last post).
 
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  • #56
Irht*Rx+Irght*R2+Vs=0

How can this equation be entirely in pluses and equal zero? Unless they're all zero.


Sorry if I stole anyone's thunder, but the amount of complexity in this problem was getting a bit absurd, beyond being practical for learning I felt.

I was wondering about that. I was really getting exhausted trying this 4 eq 4 unknown thing. Not that it's hard, I've just been procrastinating because I felt a bit lost with all the equations and not seeing the light. ILS is wonderful in his approach, though, but if you say I only need 3 equations I rather solve it using just 3 equations and then once I get the final answer I'll start comparing stuff.

Point C really makes the most sense to ground, and give zero potential.


Hmm...does there have to be a point in a circuit that has 0 V potential?
 
  • #57
  • #58
Sorry, I lost the thread of this thread!

My worst pun to date ;)

I'll get to it and post back
 
  • #59
Equation #4: +I2R2 -I1R1 = 0
Equation #5: -I2Rx +I1R3 = 0


Can you try and eliminate I1 and I2?

I see 3 unknowns. Rx, I1 and I2. Not 2 unknowns!
 
  • #60
Femme_physics said:
I see 3 unknowns. Rx, I1 and I2. Not 2 unknowns!

*Sigh* ;)

Just try it!

[edit] (You procrastinator you! :wink:) [/edit]
 
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  • #61
I'm stuck. I have 3 unknowns, and 2 equations. What can I try? I can try moving things around. I don't see how it helps me. I move I2R2 to equal I1r1

Great. So, now I can divide everything by...


Ah I'll just upload it. Hope you can see it clearly!



http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9679/hopuui.jpg

But now I still have too many unknowns. 2 unknowns 1 equation! I1 and Rx in this case are the unknown.
 
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  • #62
I like Serena said:
[edit] (You procrastinator you! :wink:) [/edit]


I'll work to crack it today :)
 
  • #63
Femme_physics said:
But now I still have too many unknowns. 2 unknowns 1 equation! I1 and Rx in this case are the unknown.

Divide everything by I1?
 
  • #64
dilbert20021117procrastination.jpg
 
  • #65
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  • #66
Why minus?!

ehild
 
  • #67
My bad, discount the minus. I was excited I was getting somewhere :P

Rx = R3R2/R1

Is that right?
 
  • #68
Femme_physics said:
LOL is this a mock at my procrastination? Such as I'm overthinking the theory and not doing the work? Hah. Well, I may have exaggerated in this case :)Here! Doing!

Nope! I just thought it was a funny comic! :smile:

Wait! Sorry! No it is a mock! :wink:
I was just wondering how Rx could be negative.
What could it mean?
Did you just discover negative resistors?
But that's great! We could generate voltage out of nothing! :smile:
Femme_physics said:
Is that right?
This is bizarre. I never knew you can solve a 3 unknown 2 eq thing. Is this really true? If so, what just happened here?!?

It's a special circuit that is designed to "balance" stuff.
With the method we used, we did introduce 1 unknown to many, but it didn't matter, because it would cancel out.
 
  • #69
Wait! Sorry! No it is a mock!
Fair enough heh, I had that coming

But that's great! We could generate voltage out of nothing!
LOL

Fixed. (as in my post above ehild!)
Is that right?

It's a special circuit that is designed to "balance" stuff.
With the method we used, we did introduce 1 unknown to many, but it didn't matter, because it would cancel out.

Incredible.
 
  • #70
How can this equation be entirely in pluses and equal zero? Unless they're all zero.

En contraire. Irht could, and is in fact, negative! Right? Because I told that you that I was going to pick Irht to be in the wrong direction (CCW), when in actuality, and from the equations we will find that it is negative the direction of I picked which is CW. All is well in the world of arbitrarily assigning currents directions to loops, alright!

Hmm...does there have to be a point in a circuit that has 0 V potential?
No, you don't have to have a point with a 0V potential. Usually you want to though, if you don't have coherent references to ground, you may end up with a circuit like this http://xkcd.com/730/

Of course, you're free to take my approach or not. In my mind the great thinking comes from realizing why you get the answer you do, why the circuit behaves as it does, and not in actually getting the answer. Hey, congrats on getting the problem right though!

Now, try using the voltage divider at the left and rightmost points, setting them equal, and solving for Rx. Once you do, you will see how wonderful keeping it simple really is. Using the voltage divider ought to take 4 minutes at most :)
 
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  • #71
Femme_physics said:
Is that right?
This is bizarre. I never knew you can solve a 3 unknown 2 eq thing. Is this really true? If so, what just happened here?!?

You did not solve the system of equations really, I1 and I2 are still unknown. And one solution can be I1=0 and I2 =0. In this case Rx could be anything. What you got means that unless Rx=R3R2/R1 , both I1 and I2 should be zero.

ehild
 
  • #72
En contraire. Irht could, and is in fact, negative! Right? Because I told that you that I was going to pick Irht to be in the wrong direction (CCW), when in actuality, and from the equations we will find that it is negative the direction of I picked which is CW. All is well in the world of arbitrarily assigning currents directions to loops, alright!

Oh yea, you do the same in mechanics. I do it arbitrary when I have 1 unknown with 1 equation. I don't like risking stuff when I have more equations or more unknown, because I figured that it may yield the wrong answer. But, if you say it doesn't in this case, then I take your word for it.

No, you don't have to have a point with a 0V potential. Usually you want to though, if you don't have coherent references to ground, you may end up with a circuit like this http://xkcd.com/730/

*chuckles* is that supposed to be a reference to role-playing maps/mazes?

But I get it, it's important to make a ground point.

So, if I have a simple circuit like this:

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/333/510bw.jpg

Since the voltage drop after the 5 ohm resistor is 10, all the points AFTER the 5 ohm resistor is 0, yes?

Now, try using the voltage divider at the left and rightmost points, setting them equal, and solving for Rx. Once you do, you will see how wonderful keeping it simple really is. Using the voltage divider ought to take 4 minutes at most :)
I would be happy to do it, even if it took 44 minutes :) , but I'm not sure how to use the "voltage divider", this is the first time I hear that term. Googling it, it appears to "cut" a circuit at a point. I never realized you can do that!


You did not solve the system of equations really, I1 and I2 are still unknown. And one solution can be I1=0 and I2 =0. In this case Rx could be anything. What you got means that unless Rx=R3R2/R1 , both I1 and I2 should be zero.

ehild

Is there more for me to learn from this exercise while I can be exercising other problems, Can I just that if indeed I1 and I2 = 0 then Rx = R3R2/R1 and write that as the answer and bob's your uncle?

I can also now answer

Is the value of Rx depends on the ammeter resistance A? Explain.

No, the value of a resistor is a constant.
 
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  • #73
Femme_physics;3310629 Is there more for me to learn from this exercise while I can be exercising other problems said:
I wrote that to people who read this thread and like to see in depth of problems.

ehild
 
  • #74
Femme_physics said:
Is there more for me to learn from this exercise while I can be exercising other problems, Can I just that if indeed I1 and I2 = 0 then Rx = R3R2/R1 and write that as the answer and bob's your uncle?

I can also now answer

Ehild's comment shows his extensive knowledge and experience.
I think it also shows the answer to a trick question that he did not ask.

However, for your answer to the exercise, I think you can suffice with saying that:
Rx = R3R2/R1


Femme_physics said:
Is the value of Rx depends on the ammeter resistance A? Explain.
No, the value of a resistor is a constant.

A little sharper would be that we made no assumptions about the resistance of the ammeter, but that its resistance does not show in the final solution for Rx.
So Rx is indeed independent of the ammeter resistance.

Note that this question is intended to highlight the value of the Wheatstone Bridge.
 
  • #75
Fair enough ehild. :) I want too! As evidence by 5 pages of what you call a "simple exercise"!
 
  • #76
Ehild's comment shows his extensive knowledge and experience.
I think it also shows the answer to a trick question that he did not ask.

Woah, woah, have I been misinterpreted? Did I complain? I hope not! Never! Knowledge is power, it's valuable! I'll take what I can get.

I just asked if I should be investing so much in one exercise or now that I have the answer, I'll let go, for the sake my sanity, to continue other exercises :)

@ ehild. You should never have to excuse yourself for writing extra knowledge stuff. And never esp. in my threads! Am very happy you do that :)

However, for your answer to the exercise, I think you can suffice with saying that:
Rx = R3R2/R1

*does victory dance!*

A little sharper would be that we made no assumptions about the resistance of the ammeter, but that its resistance does not show in the final solution for Rx.
So Rx is indeed independent of the ammeter resistance.

Note that this question is intended to highlight the value of the Wheatstone Bridge.

Awesome :) Thank you soooooooooo much everyone! ehild, Mark, ILS, gneil, quabache... hope I didn't forget anyone. Thank you! :)PS I may come back to this thread at some point as I continue to learn.
 
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  • #77
You must have just seen circuits written in a way you're not used to. Here's a voltage divider for a circuit written the way you're used to.
voltage%20divider.PNG

The formula would be Vmiddle=R2/(R1+R2)Vbat. So the voltage across R2 will be VR2 = 2/3*12 = 8V

So really what you have in your balanced wheatstone bridge is two independent voltage dividers.
 
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