Why is the time integral of the Lagrangian minimal?

In summary, the conversation discusses the relationship between the Lagrangian and the energy, as well as the derivation of Hamilton's Principle and its equivalence to Newton's Laws. The speaker also questions whether the time integral of T - V is minimized and mentions the use of the Euler-Lagrange equation in this scenario. The conversation ends with an acknowledgment of potential language mistakes and a lack of understanding of the physical meaning of the Lagrangian.
  • #1
ShamelessGit
39
0
I saw a proof recently that demonstrated that for

F= ∫L(x, y(x), y'(x))dx, if y(x) is such that F is minimal (no other y(x) could produce a smaller F), then dL/dy - d/dx(dL/(dy/dx)) = 0.

I understood the proof, and I was able to see that with a basic definition of Energy = (m/2)(dx/dt)^2 + V(x), that carrying out this calculation for the lagrangian = (m/2)(dx/dt)^2 - V(x), that doing this always results in m(d^2x/dt^2) + dV(x)/dr = ma - ma = 0.

Now however, I'd like to know if this means that the time integral of T - V is minimized. Maybe I'm having a brain fart, but it seems like ∫T + Vdt would be minimized and not ∫T - Vdt because integrating the energy would give you ∫Tdt + ∫Vdt = E(t2 - t1), which would seem to indicate that for any given time interval, the value of the integral of energy is irrelevant of the particular equations for T and V, which would mean that no ∫T + Vdt is any larger than any other, which technically satisfies the requirement that it be minimum. I do not know what ∫T - Vdt looks like.
 
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  • #2
The Hamilton's Principle states that the the action is NOT MINIMISED but has a stationary value. Think of it like this:

When the derivative of a single-variable function is zero, that doesn't mean that the function is minimized or maximized in that point. A function which has a zero derivative but has not a minimal or maximal value is f(x) = x^3.

Energy is not minimized. Try taking the Euler-Lagrange equation but put the energy instead of the Lagrangian. The Euler-Lagrange equation won't give you the correct Newton's 2nd Law.

To clarify some things: the Euler-Lagrange equation is equivalent to Newton's Laws. That means that:

With Newton's Laws you can derive Hamilton's Principle (see wikipedia for derivation)
and from Hamilton's Principle you can derive Newton's Laws (see Mechanics, Landau Lisfhitz 1st chapter for derivation).

Also, I cannot find any physical meaning for the Lagrangian. If I made any language mistakes, sorry, I'm Greek :P
 

1. Why is the time integral of the Lagrangian minimal?

The time integral of the Lagrangian is minimal because of the principle of least action, which states that a physical system will always follow the path that minimizes the action (the integral of the Lagrangian) between two points in time. This principle is a fundamental concept in classical mechanics and is derived from the Hamilton's principle of stationary action.

2. What is the significance of the time integral of the Lagrangian?

The time integral of the Lagrangian is significant because it represents the total energy of a physical system. This energy is conserved and can be used to describe the motion and behavior of the system. It is also used to derive the equations of motion for the system.

3. How is the time integral of the Lagrangian related to the principle of least action?

The time integral of the Lagrangian is directly related to the principle of least action, as it is used to calculate the action of a physical system. The principle of least action states that the actual path of a system is the one that minimizes the action, which is the integral of the Lagrangian over a specific time interval. Therefore, the time integral of the Lagrangian is essential in understanding and applying the principle of least action.

4. Does the time integral of the Lagrangian have any practical applications?

Yes, the time integral of the Lagrangian has several practical applications in various fields of science and engineering. It is used in classical mechanics to describe the motion of particles and systems, in quantum mechanics to derive the Schrödinger equation, and in field theory to describe the behavior of fields. It also has applications in other areas such as optics, electromagnetism, and thermodynamics.

5. Can the time integral of the Lagrangian be equal to zero?

Yes, the time integral of the Lagrangian can be equal to zero in some cases. This would mean that the action of the system is minimal, and the principle of least action is satisfied. However, in most cases, the time integral of the Lagrangian is non-zero, representing the energy and dynamics of the system.

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