Abstract question I fail to solve

[zoki85]

Hi!

I couldn't find good enough logic here.
What's the correct answer (A,B,C,D, or E), what I am missing?

Zoki

 

[phinds]

Do you see any correlation between each perimeter and what is inside that perimeter?

 

[zoki85]

No, nothing specific. Seems random to me.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Zoki, this has the superficial appearance of a Raven's Progressive matrix, but may not be. The group as a whole may just be a set. And the solution might simply be to select the choice that best belongs in the set. Choice A wouldn't belong in the set because the two figures that are in A have rounded corners, and all the figures in the 'set proper' have sharp corners. By the same logic, all the other choices have features that make them too different from the members of the set proper to belong there, except one, E. E seems to have all the right properties.

I don't know if that's the right answer but it is the only sense I could make of this. Do you have an answer key?

 

[jz92wjaz]

I was also thinking E. If you look at the diagonals, you have a set of three where the number of sides of the inside shape matches the number of sides of the outside shape. The other visible set of three has two where the number of sides on the outside and inside shape differs by one, and one where the outside has two more than the inside. On the last diagonal, you see one where the number of sides differs by one, and one where the number of sides differs by three. I would infer that the last ought to differ by one, so I pick E.

Or, each diagonal has two odd shaped pieces. The diagonal starting from the top left to the bottom right has both in the top left image. The other full diagonal has the odd pieces in the middle left and lower middle. The last diagonal has odd pieces in the bottom left and middle right. The ? piece should have no odd pieces. A, B, and C are all odd. D has no middle. I choose E again.

Honestly, I have no idea which is correct, but this seems plausible. If you find the correct answer, please tell us.

 

[zoki85]

@zoobyshoe, thanks for your reply, it was helpful. No, I haven't got answer key. Why do you think E is better than B or C, what excludes answers B,C?
@jz92wjaz, I think you're complicating bit too much. This is the question one should answer in about 1 min, so the pattern involved must be rather simple.

 

[TumblingDice]

@zoobyshoe, thanks for your reply, it was helpful. No, I haven't got answer key. Why do you think E is better than B or C, what excludes answers B,C?
@jz92wjaz, I think you're complicating bit too much. This is the question one should answer in about 1 min, so the pattern involved must be rather simple.

I have to agree with post #4 from @zoobyshoe, as well as the perspective from @wjaz. I can easily eliminate A, B and D because they have properties that conflict with all other members of the set/puzzle. (A) has rounded corners, (B) has two identical geometric figures, and (D) does not have an inner shape. Looking from this distance, I haven't found a way to eliminate (C) from the big picture yet, but there's also a little "spidey sense" in my head that's saying I should notice a problem with (C).

If this were a question on a test of mine, I could go home feeling very confident with (E).

Anyone else?

 

[Evo]

If you look at each vertical column the left and right columns each have one set of two thin figures, one set with one bold outer and thin inner, and one bold inner and thin outer. The middle column is missing a set with a bold outer figure and thin inner figure "E". B is not thin enough inside and too large inside as compared to the others. That's how I see it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

@zoobyshoe, thanks for your reply, it was helpful. No, I haven't got answer key. Why do you think E is better than B or C, what excludes answers B,C?

B and C both have their "main" axis on the diagonal. In saying that, I'm kind of waving my hand at a property I don't have rigorous words for. But the other figures all seem "rooted" in either a vertical or horizontal axis, not a diagonal one. B is outright skewed or racked. There's no other figure with that property. We could put four different axes through C, but the "main" ones on which it is constructed are the diagonal ones. Additionally, if we were to chose C we'd have to explain why it's outer polygon has so many more sides than any other figure. Of all the choices E seems completely non-controversial. There's nothing about it we'd have to stretch to explain.

Regardless, that whole approach might be outright wrong. There may be a much more interesting, but obscure, pattern I haven't grasped.

 

[TumblingDice]

If you look at each vertical column the left and right columns each have one set of two thin figures, one set with one bold outer and thin inner, and one bold inner and thin outer. The middle column is missing a set with a bold outer figure and thin inner figure "E". B is not thin enough inside and too large inside as compared to the others. That's how I see it.

If Evo's observation isn't correct, it's the fault of the puzzle, AFAIC.

WAY TO GO, EVO!
Check it out! The bold/normal weights that Evo explains are unique and consistent with, "what's missing?". I'm all in with Evo - the geometries, shapes, and curves are all blowing smoke here. (I'm experiencing some significant "deja vu" at the moment, and don't understand why).

 

[Vanadium 50]

I think I like Evo's answer the best. As far as zoobyshoe's "main axis" argument, I would cast this as every shape (indeed, every outer shape) has at least one horizontal line. C does not. I don't think B can be excluded on symmetry axis grounds because of (1,1) where the inner shape also has a canted symmetry axis.

I also think this is a lousy question. One can argue for several answers.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There's nothing about it we'd have to stretch to explain.

Except that no row or column has two outer shapes with the same number of sides. (2,2) and E both have 4.

 

[Vanadium 50]

(B) has two identical geometric figures

So does (1,3).

 

[zoki85]

If you look at each vertical column the left and right columns each have one set of two thin figures, one set with one bold outer and thin inner, and one bold inner and thin outer. The middle column is missing a set with a bold outer figure and thin inner figure "E". B is not thin enough inside and too large inside as compared to the others. That's how I see it.

I admit that's a nice way of creative thinking :)
However, that sort question just probes the logic and reasoning power of testee.
In that sense here's better way to eliminate B. Note that in all 5 figures with bold and thin figure in the picture, the figures have different number of sides.Only cases with both thin sides figures have equal number of sides. B has two figures with equal number of sides but they are not both thin.

B and C both have their "main" axis on the diagonal. In saying that, I'm kind of waving my hand at a property I don't have rigorous words for. But the other figures all seem "rooted" in either a vertical or horizontal axis, not a diagonal one. B is outright skewed or racked. There's no other figure with that property. We could put four different axes through C, but the "main" ones on which it is constructed are the diagonal ones. Additionally, if we were to chose C we'd have to explain why it's outer polygon has so many more sides than any other figure. Of all the choices E seems completely non-controversial. There's nothing about it we'd have to stretch to explain.

Regardless, that whole approach might be outright wrong. There may be a much more interesting, but obscure, pattern I haven't grasped.

I don't think there's anything with diagonals or orientation of the figures involved. But that's just my opinion

 

[zoobyshoe]

I also think this is a lousy question. One can argue for several answers.

I'm starting to wonder if the fact one can argue several different routes to E, none completely satisfying, means it's actually a well constructed question meant to test something else. Like a logic rorschach test.

 

[zoki85]

I'm starting to wonder if the fact one can argue several different routes to E, none completely satisfying, means it's actually a well constructed question meant to test something else. Like a logic rorschach test.

FYI, the question is example from one of Procter & Gamble's global reasoning tests :
https://www.wikijob.co.uk/wiki/procter-gamble-application-process

 

[zoobyshoe]

FYI, the question is example from one of Procter & Gamble's global reasoning tests :
https://www.wikijob.co.uk/wiki/procter-gamble-application-process

I googled a little trying to find the test. I found this one, but the problems are way easier, with very clear answers:
https://pg.sitebase.net/pg_images/t...nglish_-_Practice_Reasoning_Test_-_5.6.08.pdf

 

[zoki85]

I googled a little trying to find the test. I found this one, but the problems are way easier, with very clear answers:
https://pg.sitebase.net/pg_images/t...nglish_-_Practice_Reasoning_Test_-_5.6.08.pdf

Yes, these are easy. You may consider them just for warm up:D. Such kind of questions you'll get among first on real P&G tests.
The question I posted, you'll get near the end of the test;)

 

[TumblingDice]

I'm starting to wonder if the fact one can argue several different routes to E, none completely satisfying, means it's actually a well constructed question meant to test something else. Like a logic rorschach test.

Me, too. I started thinking this shortly after posting my enthusiasm regarding the line weights. Just as you wrote, multiple paths lead to "E", and the problem there is it doesn't weed out a good answer from the illusive, correct answer.

Has anyone been able to spot possible reasons to eliminate "C"? I haven't seriously revisited this since last time - will check back and "chew" some more hopefully soon.

 

[zoki85]

Has anyone been able to spot possible reasons to eliminate "C"?

Read Evo's post. Column rule of inverted sides thickness for two elements of the same column. This is why answer E has advantage over answer C.
And maybe not the only reason...

 

[TumblingDice]

Read Evo's post. Column rule of inverted sides thickness for two elements of the same column. This is why answer E has advantage over answer C.
And maybe not the only reason...

Yes, yet this solution is confined to columns, w/o any observable hint on the puzzle why the solution would be confined to columns. I went back to the puzzle to view rows and diagonals with a fresh perspective (compliments of Evo), but no luck. I've even tried thinking of the middle square as a 'wild card' - yeah, that hasn't worked yet...

I want to believe the answer will be clear and amazingly obvious once it's identified, and the creator spent a lot of time to strategically disguise it to find whose brain thinks that way, very quickly.

 

[TumblingDice]

Another road that leads to "E"? Looking at a set of 3x3 nine, I began looking for groups of three. I spot three figures with inside/outside normal weight. Three more with inside bold and outside normal. That leaves two with inside normal and outside bold - and "E" is the only one that will make the final triplet. Unless the inside parellogram in "B"is normal - maybe not?

This is a GOOD puzzle (as long as the answer isn't "E").

 

[zoki85]

@TumblingDice, Let me rephrase it in the following way :
We have 3 items with bolded greater number of sides on the inner figure, and 2 items with bolded greater number of sides on the outer figure. So what answer do you prefer for the pic of the puzzle to be completed: C or E?

 

[TumblingDice]

@TumblingDice, Let me rephrase it in the following way :
We have 3 items with bolded greater number of sides on the inner figure, and 2 items with bolded greater number of sides on the outer figure. So what answer do you prefer for pic to be completed: C or E?

Plz read my post #21. (C would be my pick if i fits for a specific, unique reason.)

 

[mfb]

I would choose "E" for two independent reasons, and I got both independent of the discussion here:

1) by elimination: A with rounded edges and D without inner shape clearly don't fit in the pattern. C has 12 sides for the outer shape, that is too much. B does not follow the symmetry pattern (horizontal or vertical symmetry axis, apart from the inner shape at A).
2) by line width: Same argument as Evo posted. It is not so clear if the inner shape at "B" is thick or not, but I prefer E here.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yes, these are easy. You may consider them just for warm up:D. Such kind of questions you'll get among first on real P&G tests.
The question I posted, you'll get near the end of the test;)

Can you link us to the actual page where you found this, please?

 

[zoobyshoe]

2) by line width: Same argument as Evo posted. It is not so clear if the inner shape at "B" is thick or not, but I prefer E here.

Evo's line width logic is very compelling and eliminates C. It's not so clear after that, though, that B is the wrong choice. The inner figure does seem "too large," but I'm hard pressed to formulate a rule about how large the inner figure should be. All I can say is that, in the case of B, it seems to have a different aesthetic to its proportions than the others. In other words, it's an intuitive reaction, not something you can rigorously justify.

Figure 1,1 is pretty much wrong for the set because, unlike all the others, it has no axis that will cut both inner and outer figure with bilateral symmetry. If that's allowed (and it is) then maybe a "too large" inner figure is equally allowed, and maybe a diagonal axis is allowed. 1,1 makes it hard to figure out laws or axioms for this puzzle.

 

[zoki85]

Can you link us to the actual page where you found this, please?

Unfortunately, I can't. Friend who has taken P&G test, forwarded me the question. BTW, he passed the test:)

 

[Intrastellar]

The shape of any pair with more sides is bold, a pair with equal number of sides are both not bold. E is the only correct answer.

Edit:
I am not sure whether this post was clear. Pick any box, the object with more sides is the bold one, and if both objects have equal number of sides, then they are both not bold. according to these 2 rules, E is the only correct answer

Edit2:
I just read the thread

Another road that leads to "E"? Looking at a set of 3x3 nine, I began looking for groups of three. I spot three figures with inside/outside normal weight. Three more with inside bold and outside normal. That leaves two with inside normal and outside bold - and "E" is the only one that will make the final triplet. Unless the inside parellogram in "B"is normal - maybe not?

This is a GOOD puzzle (as long as the answer isn't "E").

And this finishes the puzzle, each column has one with one with bold outside figure, one inside, and one with both not bold, the only correct answer is E

Edit3: I meant, this finishes the puzzle by giving it (Edit4: it being the above solution) the row or column specific pattern.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The shape of any pair with more sides is bold, a pair with equal number of sides are both not bold. E is the only correct answer.

Edit:
I am not sure whether this post was clear. Pick any box, the object with more sides is the bold one, and if both objects have equal number of sides, then they are both not bold. according to these 2 rules, E is the only correct answer

Edit2:
I just read the thread

And this finishes the puzzle, each column has one with one with bold outside figure, one inside, and one with both not bold, the only correct answer is E

Edit3: I meant, this finishes the puzzle by giving it the row or column specific pattern.

I definitely see B as inside: normal, outside: bold. In that regard, it's as good a choice as E. If E is correct, there has to be some other reason for rejecting B, because they're both inside: normal, outside: bold.

 

[zoki85]

I definitely see B as inside: normal, outside: bold. In that regard, it's as good a choice as E. If E is correct, there has to be some other reason for rejecting B, because they're both inside: normal, outside: bold.

Post #14 :)
E must be correct answer. Case closed

 

[Intrastellar]

I definitely see B as inside: normal, outside: bold. In that regard, it's as good a choice as E. If E is correct, there has to be some other reason for rejecting B, because they're both inside: normal, outside: bold.

Ahh, I knew I wasn't clear, my apologies.

For each one of the 3x3 boxes, the figure with the more sides is the bold ones, but if they both have the same number of sides they are both not bold.
For each column, there is one with a bold figure on the outside, one with a bold figure on the inside, and one with both not bold.

I hope that this is clearer.

 

[TumblingDice]

Post #14 :)
E must be correct answer. Case closed

O.K. for you if you feel that confident. My comment is, if "E" is the correct answer and the quiz doesn't allow for one to explain their reasoning, then the question is very poor. That's because most replies with an answer in this thread say "E", yet there's a variety of reasons given why. If most people choose "E" for various reasons, I don't see what the testers could expect to glean from the testee's answers (guesses).

 

[zoobyshoe]

Post #14 :)
E must be correct answer. Case closed

Ahh, I knew I wasn't clear, my apologies.

For each one of the 3x3 boxes, the figure with the more sides is the bold ones, but if they both have the same number of sides they are both not bold.
For each column, there is one with a bold figure on the outside, one with a bold figure on the inside, and one with both not bold.

I hope that this is clearer.

I see now. B is rejected based on the fact it has the same # of sides in both inner and outer figure. Other figures like that are not bolded.

However, observe 1,1. The inner figure shares no axis with the outer figure. 1,1 is unique and anomalous for that. Given 1,1, how do we ever know what other anomalies aren't allowed?

That doubt aside, your reason for rejecting B is pretty good. The existence of 1,1 prevents me, however, from saying, "case closed."

 

[zoki85]

Well then, maybe you two should write P&G company they have some bad questions in their professionally made reasoning tests :p
I don't know what else to say...