Do you Believe in Out-of-Body Experiences?

[zoobyshoe]

From that, one could argue that the OBE is completely a product of the brain. It doesn't necessarily follow though. One other view is that, if the In-Body-Experience is the result of the brain, then an experience not involving those brainparts would result in an OBE. Then the IBE is artificial, and the OBE would be a more default, unfiltered state of mind (with input that would otherwise have been filtered out).

So you think that, because humans can be knocked unconscious, it follows that unconsciousness is the default state of mind? I don't agree with that.

No, I am saying IF the OBE is a default state, as you proposed, THEN one would expect it to occur instead of total unconsciousness when the thalamus is disturbed. This is not the case, though. Being knocked unconscious results in: unconsciousness. Therefore the OBE is not the default state.

Im listing other possibilities, because you think there is only 1 possibility.

What I think is that having already found an excellent neurological explanation for it the other possibilities you propose are now irrelevant, scientifically, because they are mystical. There is no point in clinging to the notion this experience is exactly what it seems like.

I am not against the notion of any tests, I just want you to admit your motivation is the hope of proof of something mystical.

Whether you want to call it evidence or not, it is commonly accepted that OBEs exist.

SO WHAT? For two thousand years it was commonly accepted that heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones. What's commonly accepted is neither here nor there.

Sure, the brain does create a lot of illusions. But from that it doesn't follow that everything it senses is an illusion. Just because one can dream about humans, doesn't mean all humans are an illusion.

Sure, the brain does create a lot of illusions. What follows from that is that every subjective sensory experience does not have to be chronically and continually speculatively ruminated upon once a good, solid explanation has been discovered. This experience feels persuasive and real for the same reason the voices heard by schizophrenics sound totally real to them: the brain makes the qualia completely vivid whether the stimulation is authentically from the outside world or whether it is erroneously triggered from within. I've experienced a few hallucinations myself of various sorts and they seem amazingly real. My favorite story: a guy told me that after four days of no sleep he saw a 10 foot tall rabbit in a vacant lot. I asked him how real it seemed. He said he was sure if he had gone up and touched it he would have felt the fur. Yet, obviously, there was no 10 foot tall rabbit.

 

[pftest]

No, I am saying IF the OBE is a default state, as you proposed, THEN one would expect it to occur instead of total unconsciousness when the thalamus is disturbed. This is not the case, though. Being knocked unconscious results in: unconsciousness. Therefore the OBE is not the default state.

I actually said "more default state of mind", not "the default state of mind". Two counterarguments to how the state of unconsciousness doesn't destroy the possibility of OBE being more default than IBE: memory of the OBE state may be impaired. The OBE state may be temporary. Btw OBEs do occur when people are about to go unconscious, as in NDEs.

One thing we can agree on is that the human state of mind is not the default state of mind. We and our minds evolved after all.

What I think is that having already found an excellent neurological explanation for it the other possibilities you propose are now irrelevant, scientifically, because they are mystical. There is no point in clinging to the notion this experience is exactly what it seems like.

What do you mean with "mystical" and how is the possibility of an OBE involving veridical perception "scientifically irrelevant"? If you are into Oliver Sacks you should know that abnormal mental states can actually be of great value to the science of mind and brain.

I am not against the notion of any tests, I just want you to admit your motivation is the hope of proof of something mystical.

Who cares what i hope for? If you want my opinion on what OBEs are (which you seem to have missed), read my previous posts.

Sure, the brain does create a lot of illusions. What follows from that is that every subjective sensory experience does not have to be chronically and continually speculatively ruminated upon once a good, solid explanation has been discovered. This experience feels persuasive and real for the same reason the voices heard by schizophrenics sound totally real to them: the brain makes the qualia completely vivid whether the stimulation is authentically from the outside world or whether it is erroneously triggered from within. I've experienced a few hallucinations myself of various sorts and they seem amazingly real. My favorite story: a guy told me that after four days of no sleep he saw a 10 foot tall rabbit in a vacant lot. I asked him how real it seemed. He said he was sure if he had gone up and touched it he would have felt the fur. Yet, obviously, there was no 10 foot tall rabbit.

You know the rubber hand illusion? It makes you think a rubber hand is part of "you". The same can be going on with your real hand and body. Just because OBEs can be induced, doesn't mean there is a "you" that is more real and is occupying your body.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I actually said "more default state of mind", not "the default state of mind". Two counterarguments to how the state of unconsciousness doesn't destroy the possibility of OBE being more default than IBE: memory of the OBE state may be impaired. The OBE state may be temporary. Btw OBEs do occur when people are about to go unconscious, as in NDEs.

One thing we can agree on is that the human state of mind is not the default state of mind. We and our minds evolved after all.

What do you mean with "mystical" and how is the possibility of an OBE involving veridical perception "scientifically irrelevant"? If you are into Oliver Sacks you should know that abnormal mental states can actually be of great value to the science of mind and brain.

Who cares what i hope for? If you want my opinion on what OBEs are (which you seem to have missed), read my previous posts.

You know the rubber hand illusion? It makes you think a rubber hand is part of "you". The same can be going on with your real hand and body. Just because OBEs can be induced, doesn't mean there is a "you" that is more real and is occupying your body.

In other words, you strongly lean toward believing they are "real": that human consciousness can leave the body (or that it's never located in the body to begin with).

 

[pftest]

In other words, you strongly lean toward believing they are "real": that human consciousness can leave the body (or that it's never located in the body to begin with).

This is what i wrote, and which contains a bit of my opinion on OBEs:

A few years ago i had an OBE (first one i ever had). It was quite an amazing experience and seemed very realistic, but having read about OBEs, i knew and thought it could all be a trick of the brain. I decided that if i ever had one again, i would try to verify it.

Anyway, about two years later i had another OBE.
...
Im still not convinced it was proper verification.
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