My lost dream of being a mathematician

[hatemalnaggar]

Hello
I respect all of you
I'm a computer programmer from Egypt
When I finished my high school, I wanted to join the faculty of science math department
My father refused because he has a private hospital and wanted me to be a doctor
So I joined the faculty of medicine that I hated more than any thing else, obligated
It is 6 years
After the second year, I refused the situation and left their house and got rid of their
money, deciding to follow my dream, that has superior power over me
Imagine what happened in Egypt
The employees refused to give me the permission to change "Your father has to agree"
"He's your father and knows your life more than you"
"He's to decide for you"
It didn't do any thing when I shouted or cried "This is the law"
Right now, I want to be a mathematician
What do you think I can do, without a teacher?
Right now, I finished my computer institute and I'm a programmer
Thank you very much
Hatem Al-Naggar

 

[jedishrfu]

Welcome to PF!

Are you planning to do Computational Math? Its a very interesting field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_math

 

[Adjoint]

Welcome to PF!
Its sad to hear what happened with you. Often parents overdo their guidance to put our life in order which results in more disorder. But at least they do it with good intention.

Unfortunately I don't think it is possible to become a self taught mathematician (specially on higher level) without any institutional guidance. Of course you can get a lot of help from internet and it is certainly possible to learn a lot without direct contact with teachers. But the main problem would be to keep up the motivation. Seriously.
Also an academic atmosphere is very necessary.

It would be best if you can convince your parents. But if that's really impossible then perhaps by aiming to be a mathematician (presumably a professional level mathematician) all by yourself, you are choosing a really really hard path.
It may seem that I am too negative here. Anyway if you really have nothing to loose, and you are so determined, perhaps give it a go!

You told that you are now a computer programmer. I think people here can give you better suggestions if you mention what your current mathematical background is.

Goodluck.

 

[homeomorphic]

Unfortunately I don't think it is possible to become a self taught mathematician (specially on higher level) without any institutional guidance.

Disagree.

Slightly outdated, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Green

"Green's life story is remarkable in that he was almost entirely self-taught. He received only about one year of formal schooling as a child, between the ages of 8 and 9."

 

[micromass]

Disagree.

Slightly outdated, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Green

"Green's life story is remarkable in that he was almost entirely self-taught. He received only about one year of formal schooling as a child, between the ages of 8 and 9."

Got any recent example?

 

[ModusPwnd]

Also, according to that wikipedia cited, he did have institutional guidance even though he accomplished before it.

In 1832, aged nearly forty, Green was admitted as an undergraduate at Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge.[5] He was particularly insecure about his lack of knowledge of Greek and Latin, which were prerequisites, but it turned out not to be as hard for him to learn as he believed, as the expected mastery was not as high as he had expected. In the mathematics examinations, he won the first-year mathematical prize. He graduated BA in 1838 as a 4th Wrangler (the 4th highest scoring student in his graduating class, coming after James Joseph Sylvester who scored 2nd).[5]

 

[Rolen]

Disagree.

Slightly outdated, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Green

"Green's life story is remarkable in that he was almost entirely self-taught. He received only about one year of formal schooling as a child, between the ages of 8 and 9."

He's an exceptions, we cannot count on be an exceptions.
But, OP, I also came from a rigid family, probably not as rigid as yours. My father wanted me to be an engineer because I'm good with math, but I decided to be a physicist despite the low paying jobs and the amount of time I have to dedicate to get a 'real' job. But I talked to him and said that I'll be able to get the job eventually and I will have a good future.
Your father is probably concern with your future, but you can show him that being a mathematician can give you financial security.

Talking about being a self thought mathematician is simply impossible, unless your a genius and even they go to college. You must have your undergrad degree to get to grad school to get your PhD and be a proper mathematician.

 

[Jheavner724]

With regards to being a self-taught mathematician, I argue that most of a mathematicians knowledge in their field comes from self-teaching through reading books and, more so, papers. It's really just independence in a way, and it can be done earlier, though it's more difficult.

 

[micromass]

With regards to being a self-taught mathematician, I argue that most of a mathematicians knowledge in their field comes from self-teaching through reading books and, more so, papers.

Yes, and almost all of these have done an undergrad and grad in a university and have had research guidance with a established researcher. I do not know any (recent) counterexample to this.

 

[Adjoint]

Unfortunately I don't think it is possible to become a self taught mathematician (specially on higher level) without any institutional guidance.

Disagree.
Slightly outdated, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Green
"Green's life story is remarkable in that he was almost entirely self-taught. He received only about one year of formal schooling as a child, between the ages of 8 and 9."

With absolutely no offense to OP, though it's possible but certainly not probable and hence not sensible to assume that a future George Green or Friedrich Gauss (who is said to have learned to calculate before he could talk) has made a post here.

But if it's so, by the way, I guess we all are very lucky. Because this thread will be very famous then!

(Though as a PF member, I would say if there is or will ever be an online forum from which one George Green can come out, that forum would be Physics Forums )

OP, the last word is, do what your heart desires. No one is intentionally discouraging you here, but just sharing opinions.

 

[jedishrfu]

A more recent self-taught mathematician:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramanujan

 

[TheAustrian]

Alternatively, ask someone with sufficient knowledge to teach you. This has happened before.

 

[Jheavner724]

Yes, and almost all of these have done an undergrad and grad in a university and have had research guidance with a established researcher. I do not know any (recent) counterexample to this.

Ed Witten, while obviously learning a decent bit of mathematics through physics, was not a mathematics major or anything of the like. He probably took something like calculus, differential equations, probability and statistics, differential geometry, linear algebra, a bit of analysis, and a bit of algebra, but that's hardly enough to have the basis for winning the Fields Medal. Sure, there aren't any big time modern mathematicians that I know of who didn't go to college in some field related to mathematics, but I'm sure there are some small-time ones out there, and it should also be noted that you really don't get that much guidance in college. Most of what you learn you have to teach yourself. Sure, you can go in during office hours and the like, but many do not take advantage of this (many don't even ask questions) and instead rely on their own abilities to self-teach after being presented with the necessary material.

It is, of course, easier to receive some help, but it isn't impossible to be an autodidact with abilities and knowledge comparable to a mathematician.

 

[Adjoint]

...it isn't impossible to be an autodidact with abilities and knowledge comparable to a mathematician.

It's possible but just not probable.
IMHO OP should be encouraged to try for formal education in Mathematics. That's the best way to success both academically and professionally.
Only if eventually that doesn't happen, then self learning can be an option for someone too inclined.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Ed Witten, while obviously learning a decent bit of mathematics through physics, was not a mathematics major or anything of the like. He probably took something like calculus, differential equations, probability and statistics, differential geometry, linear algebra, a bit of analysis, and a bit of algebra, but that's hardly enough to have the basis for winning the Fields Medal.

He worked on and earned a PhD in physics studying under an accomplished physicist. He spent years studying and working on mathematical physics in an academic setting before winning that prize.

 

[Jheavner724]

He worked on and earned a PhD in physics studying under an accomplished physicist. He spent years studying and working on mathematical physics in an academic setting before winning that prize.

Well yes, but mathematical physics is not mathematics. It is uncommon that a mathematician or chemist wins the Nobel Prize in physics, just as it is uncommon that a physicist wins the Fields Medal. Sure, you can learn a good bit through physics, but he obviously needed to learn a lot of mathematics on his own.

It wasn't supposed to be a perfect example fitting the description of the autodidactic mathematician.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Its an example that even with a non-traditional background a formal education is the way to go if you want to be a professional in a field. Suggesting otherwise to the original poster does him or her a disservice. Ed Witten did have a basis for winning the Fields Medal, a basis he developed in his university education and beyond.

 

[Jheavner724]

It's possible but just not probable.
IMHO OP should be encouraged to try for formal education in Mathematics. That's the best way to success both academically and professionally.
Only if eventually that doesn't happen, then self learning can be an option for someone too inclined.

I'm not saying one should not try to get a formal education in math, I'm just saying it isn't a requirement to understand modern mathematics or even do research.

I think it's also important to note than many of the great mathematicians who have a formal education came into classes having already known a lot about the classes they were taking, sometimes even knowing everything about the classes.

 

[ModusPwnd]

I'm not saying one should not try to get a formal education in math, I'm just saying it isn't a requirement to understand modern mathematics or even do research.

Saying that is not helpful to the original poster. The chances of becoming a "mathematician", as in getting paid to do mathematics, is very, very slim without a formal education of some sort. You might as well suggest the lottery as a retirement plan.

 

[TheAustrian]

Saying that is not helpful to the original poster. The chances of becoming a "mathematician", as in getting paid to do mathematics, is very, very slim without a formal education of some sort. You might as well suggest the lottery as a retirement plan.

Unfortunately, this post is very true. Nowadays it's very important to have all sorts of documents certifying what you "can" do. As much as it is entirely possible to learn everything about Mathematics that is taught in a University at home, studying at home nets the person with zero number of documents that "prove" the abilities of that person.

 

[Jheavner724]

Its an example that even with a non-traditional background a formal education is the way to go if you want to be a professional in a field. Suggesting otherwise to the original poster does him or her a disservice.

I haven't personally read through this whole thread (mobile isn't a good platform really), but at least I hope I haven't been taken as suggesting that the OP not get a formal education. It is a tough road to learn mathematics and start research by yourself. Anyone seriously pursuing a career in math should go get at least a Bachelors but probably an MS or PhD preferably (especially for a job in academia or something similar, as a high degree is a requirement even if you're very good at what you do). That might just not be an option for everyone at any given point in time.

I did it without formal schooling and I know it would have been much smoother if I had some guidance, I'd probably be better at it too, and now I am in a college as an undergraduate and I can take advantage of guidance and the like, but it still stands that I can and have done research and rigorously learned much of modern mathematics independent of that system. Self-teaching just pushed me ahead, and now I can really take advantage of the educational environment surrounding me. I'm not saying it's the best way, even if you ignore the difficulty, but it is a possible and a valid pathway. If you have no other choices, then I think it better to sit down with a textbook and work through it or explore problems you make, etc., than just do nothing.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Unfortunately, this post is very true. Nowadays it's very important to have all sorts of documents certifying what you "can" do. As much as it is entirely possible to learn everything about Mathematics that is taught in a University at home, studying at home nets the person with zero number of documents that "prove" the abilities of that person.

It takes more than pure knowledge to be a useful mathematician too though. You need other complimentary abilities like being able to communicate, debate and interact with others in your field. You cannot duplicate this at home by yourself. Also, even though it may be possible to learn it all at home... Its far easier and quicker to learn it with peers and experts in an academic setting. The inability to take the path of least resistance does not bode well for ones ability to produce as a professional in an organization.

 

[Jheavner724]

Unfortunately, this post is very true. Nowadays it's very important to have all sorts of documents certifying what you "can" do. As much as it is entirely possible to learn everything about Mathematics that is taught in a University at home, studying at home nets the person with zero number of documents that "prove" the abilities of that person.

Precisely, formal education is very helpful and is necessary to certify you know your stuff (rare exceptions exist, but eventually everyone has to get some kind of certification or something, especially today). However, meaningful learning and research can be done at home.

 

[Jheavner724]

It takes more than pure knowledge to be a useful mathematician too though. You need other complimentary abilities like being able to communicate, debate and interact with others in your field. You cannot duplicate this at home by yourself. Also, even though it may be possible to learn it all at home... Its far easier and quicker to learn it with peers and experts in an academic setting. The inability to take the path of least resistance does not bode well for ones ability to produce as a professional in an organization.

One can develop skills like communication through non-mathematical experiences and the Internet, or am I missing something here? Sure, again, it's tough, but not impossible.

 

[TheAustrian]

Precisely, formal education is very helpful and is necessary to certify you know your stuff (rare exceptions exist, but eventually everyone has to get some kind of certification or something, especially today). However, meaningful learning and research can be done at home.

Exactly. It is only unfortunate, that in most cases, getting the necessary level of education is a rather expensive endeavor for most people. It's sad that education is actually something that is not accessible easily enough and it forces people like OP to be in a situation like this. Either way, a very very self-determined person has some chance of going forward by working hard even through self studying, however it will also require some networking/personal connections to land on a job or research position. All in all, self-studying is helpful but it alone cannot realistically achieve any prospects. It's a must to get a certificate of some sort from an educational institution, and the trickiest part of it is affording it in terms of money.

 

[ModusPwnd]

In the US just about anybody can take out the 20-30k worth of loans it takes and get an education. Its accessible to anyone. Sure, it may not be a wise economic decision and you may get sick or have kids or something else to preclude it... But let's not pretend that its not accessible. It is.

The original poster is in Egypt though, so he or she may have a different set of difficulties in getting the education needed to be a "mathematician". I like the idea of using the existing programming skills in a mathematical way.

 

[homeomorphic]

The only more modern example I have is this. I heard some story about a guy who read about math on his own and then started talking to mathematicians and found that he could understand a lot of what they were doing and somehow he became a mathematician. Seems to have been fairly recent, but I don't know how long ago it was exactly. Just something a friend told me, so I have no references for it.

But my point is that it's possible to get to George's Green's level, if you happen to be like him, which ought to be at least a good portion of the way towards becoming an actual mathematician.

I think these days, it's hard to get into the research without having someone who is already an expert to help you find something to work on. But as far as learning a bunch of undergraduate or graduate level stuff, I don't see any real reason you can't teach yourself. I think you have to do most of the work yourself, regardless. You can't have someone else do your learning for you. Doesn't work that way. In some ways, an academic environment helps, but I think it can also hurt, too, if it gets to the point where there's so much pressure on you that you start getting overwhelmed and unable to cope with it. I've seen quite a few students, particularly grad students, in that position.

 

[TheAustrian]

Most people need significantly more money than 20k-30k worth of loans. At least double that, or more. And that only for the first 4 years. I don't see many jobs (although I am not in the US) that offer any placements without having an MSc or equivalent degree.

Most likely, if OP had enough money to do whatever he wants, he wouldn't have been posting here, but that's only an opinion.

 

[Student100]

In the US just about anybody can take out the 20-30k worth of loans it takes and get an education. Its accessible to anyone. Sure, it may not be a wise economic decision and you may get sick or have kids or something else to preclude it... But let's not pretend that its not accessible. It is.

The original poster is in Egypt though, so he or she may have a different set of difficulties in getting the education needed to be a "mathematician". I like the idea of using the existing programming skills in a mathematical way.

lol. I'd bump up that figure to 60-80k these days.

Anyway OP, what is preventing you from going to school for Math?

 

[ModusPwnd]

lol. I'd bump up that figure to 60-80k these days.

I don't think so. My wife and I got 4 degrees from that much, and just graduated in the past couple years. My undergrad cost 20k from a large school. Tens of thousands of grads came out of that school with the same price tag. People who take out that much in loans for a degree do so to subsidize a standard of living and avoid working. Two years at community college and two years at university is far less than that. I am now working on a third degree at a different, large school and it costs 30k for 4 years (but I am looking to take 3 years since I have classes already).


None of this is relevant to the OP though, unless he/she comes to the US to study. I assume that such affordability and ease of access to loans is not to be had in Egypt.

 

[Student100]

I don't think so. My wife and I got 4 degrees from that much, and just graduated in the past couple years. My undergrad cost 20k from a large school. Tens of thousands of grads came out of that school with the same price tag. People who take out that much in loans for a degree do so to subsidize a standard of living and avoid working. Two years at community college and two years at university is far less than that. I am now working on a third degree at a different, large school and it costs 30k for 4 years (but I am looking to take 3 years since I have classes already).


None of this is relevant to the OP though, unless he/she comes to the US to study. I assume that such affordability and ease of access to loans is not to be had in Egypt.

Well you're doing better than most, many students pay that in one year in tuition + room and board, it gets even worse for private universities and out of state students.

 

[TheAustrian]

I don't think so. My wife and I got 4 degrees from that much, and just graduated in the past couple years. My undergrad cost 20k from a large school. Tens of thousands of grads came out of that school with the same price tag. People who take out that much in loans for a degree do so to subsidize a standard of living and avoid working. Two years at community college and two years at university is far less than that. I am now working on a third degree at a different, large school and it costs 30k for 4 years (but I am looking to take 3 years since I have classes already).


None of this is relevant to the OP though, unless he/she comes to the US to study. I assume that such affordability and ease of access to loans is not to be had in Egypt.

Working while studying full-time is near enough impossible in some cases. Different universities present different amount of workload, and certain subjects like Mathematics are very demanding in any case. Getting excellent grades and working at the same time, in many cases is impossible. Studying at a University is considered to be a full-time activity (and at times it can itself extend beyond that). Working while studying drops the average grade down one category, there are of course exceptions to that (both in a positive and negative way).

Your situation was a unique situation which can not be applied in a general case. I am convinced that most people have to take much more than 30k in loans. You have probably been more lucky (or resourceful?) than the average.

Not many countries give much support to students, and to be fair, without any offense to Egypt, I doubt that they are in such a financial state which allows them to subsidize the financial costs of university students, and relatively speaking, it is probably as expensive for them to study as it is for most people in their respective countries.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Well you're doing better than most, many students pay that in one year in tuition + room and board, it gets even worse for private universities and out of state students.

Most students don't go to private out of state universities. That is a luxury of the rich and privilege of the successful hard workers with scholarships. And you have to pay for room and board, food and utilities whether you go to school or not. That is not a school cost... Regular, but quality, state schools like University of Washington and University of Arizona cost about 10-13k a year. Community college costs about 5 or 6k a year.

I just looked up some about Egypt. I found one place that claims a $1200 year tuition is above average. The average pay in Egypt seems to be in the hundreds of dollar per year though. So it might not be financially accessible and loans might be harder to get. Also, the tone of the original post indicates that family or cultural expectations might be getting in the way. Hopefully we will get a response back, but the original post might just be a means to vent.

 

[Jheavner724]

I feel we have gotten off topic. It can probably be agreed that while self-teaching holds some value and may be a good plan of action for the OP in the immediate future, to actually become a mathematician (i.e. at a university), a PhD is probably needed, and this starts with an undergraduate degree. So, I recommend the OP self-study, try to start at any sort of local, cheap college, or online university, get an Associate degree there, then try to get a Bachelors elsewhere using scholarships and financial aid, then go into a PhD program.

Unfortunately, I, like many (maybe all) people on this thread, don't know much about Egyptian universities and the like, and an added layer of complexity is added in the form of the OPs particularly difficult situation.

Perhaps a change of location is in order? It seems to me that, with the home situation of the OP, as well as the desire to become a mathematician (which requires a PhD at a decent graduate school), moving somewhere with good, affordable undergraduate education, as well as good graduate education (often times this comes free) would be preferable (such places include Australia, the UK, the US, and elsewhere). But, perhaps I'm ignorant and Egypt too has such a situation, in which case staying would be fine (and probably easier, as I assume Egyptian Arabic is your L1 and English, while you obviously are proficient in, your L2 or even L3/L4,etc. and likely somewhat weaker than your L1).

 

[TheAustrian]

Regular, but quality, state schools like University of Washington and University of Arizona cost about 10-13k a year. Community college costs about 5 or 6k a year.

These costs in themselves go well beyond the budgets of very many people. Not a lot of people can keep 10k around just to throw it at something.

but the original post might just be a means to vent.

IMO from OP's tone, this is the most likely case.