Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York

[mheslep]

...
But if you can show me all these charities the Tea Party is supporting, I may change my opinion if I see that they are really pro-poor in some other way that I hadn't thought of.

Some help:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html

Arthur Brooks, the author of a book on donors to charity, “Who Really Cares,” cites data that households headed by conservatives give 30 percent more to charity than households headed by liberals. A study by Google found an even greater disproportion: average annual contributions reported by conservatives were almost double those of liberals.

Other research has reached similar conclusions. The “generosity index” from the Catalogue for Philanthropy typically finds that red states are the most likely to give to nonprofits, while Northeastern states are least likely to do so
[...]
Something similar is true internationally. European countries seem to show more compassion than America in providing safety nets for the poor, and they give far more humanitarian foreign aid per capita than the United States does. But as individuals, Europeans are far less charitable than Americans.

Americans give sums to charity equivalent to 1.67 percent of G.N.P., according to a terrific new book, “Philanthrocapitalism,” by Matthew Bishop and Michael Green. The British are second, with 0.73 percent, while the stingiest people on the list are the French, at 0.14 percent.

 

[MarcoD]

From the link: "Arthur Brooks, the author of a book on donors to charity, “Who Really Cares,” cites data that households headed by conservatives give 30 percent more to charity than households headed by liberals."

30% more doesn't mean a lot if liberals are 200% poorer. I'ld like to see those stats first.

[ Anyway, his stats are not backed up by http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/sep/08/charitable-giving-country" per capita to the rest of the world, and personally also give money. Why do more personally? ]

 

[Oltz]

I don't think so, though. Democrats are the party for the people. Republicans are the party for the corporations against the poor. QUOTE]

I am a republican. I do not defend the rich I defend their right to be rich. I don't fight the people I fight the majority from taking from the Minority.

What you want is the same as saying Kenyans make up 1% of the population they are not allowed to have more then 1 pair of shoes anymore if they already have more thne 1 pair of shoes we need to take them away and give them to the Jamaicans. We are the 99% and we can do that since their are more of us.

“When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.”

Benjamin Franklin

Redistribution can not exist in a representative system or else the system will collapse.

the bottom 50% of all income earners pay just 3.4% of the taxes collected

Every evening, the same 10 friends eat dinner together, family style, at the same restaurant. The bill for all 10 comes to $100. They always pay it the way we pay taxes:
• The first four are poor and pay nothing.
• The fifth pays $1.
• The sixth pays $3.
• The seventh, $7
• The eighth, $12.
• The ninth, $18.
• The 10th, (the most well-to-do) pays $59.

 

[daveb]

The mechanisms of faith? First, I respect that, so please don't read this as a disrespectful question: Do you live in a 'wealthy' district?

I would expect those living in poor districts to get the opposite sermon of those living in wealthy districts. Probably just social dynamics.

Not quite. A UU church I went to in teh heart of a welthy district still supported such things as social and economic justice, but yes, it probably is somewhat related to that.

 

[Char. Limit]

If you defend the rich's right to be rich you're defending the rich by the definition of defending. If you are against the majority then you're against the people, again by definition since the majority are the people.

So... how are you not against the people and defending the rich again?

 

[WhoWee]

If you defend the rich's right to be rich you're defending the rich by the definition of defending. If you are against the majority then you're against the people, again by definition since the majority are the people.

So... how are you not against the people and defending the rich again?

When the (Char-broiled?) Supreme Cheezburger replaces McD's worldwide - I'm going to follow up with you on this opinion (if you'll accept my email).

 

[Char. Limit]

When the (Char-broiled?) Supreme Cheezburger replaces McD's worldwide - I'm going to follow up with you on this opinion (if you'll accept my email).

Always willing to discuss things!

Well except when I wake up on the wrong side of the bed. Then I just yell at people.

 

[edward]

Occupy Boston didn't go so well last night. Over one hundred were arrested. They were where they were not supposed to be and I can go along with that part.

On the other hand there was a veterans group among those arrested and their flags were thrown on the ground. That is an outrage.

There is a video in this link.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ores-arrested/2011/10/11/gIQAPQbIcL_blog.html

 

[daveb]

Stan: I want to be a woman. From now on, I want you all to call me Loretta.

Reg: What?

Loretta: It's my right as a man.

Judith: Well, why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?

Loretta: I want to have babies.

Reg: You want to have babies?!

Loretta: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.

Reg: But...you can't have babies!

Loretta: Don't you opress me!

Reg: I'm not opressing you, Stan. You haven't got a womb. Where is the foetus going to gestate? You're going to keep it in a box?

Loretta: Sniff.

Judith: Here, I've got an idea. Suppose you agree that he can't actually have babies, not having a womb, which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans', but that he can have the right to have babies.

Rogers: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother. Sister! Sorry.

-Life of Brian

 

[WhoWee]

Occupy Boston didn't go so well last night. Over one hundred were arrested. They were where they were not supposed to be and I can go along with that.

On the other hand there was a veterans group among those arrested and their flags were thrown on the ground. That is an outrage.

There is a video in this link.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ores-arrested/2011/10/11/gIQAPQbIcL_blog.html

The link indicates there was $150,000 in damages to the new garden where they camped? Did they have a permit to camp in the garden?

 

[ThomasT]

If you defend the rich's right to be rich you're defending the rich by the definition of defending. If you are against the majority then you're against the people, again by definition since the majority are the people.

So... how are you not against the people and defending the rich again?

Good point. I would like to add that it was sort of established, or at least it seemed to me to be agreed upon, that there is no inalienable right to justice and equality. So, it would seem consistent to maintain that there's also no inalienable right to wealth.

It's just the power struggle between the haves and the have nots that's been going on for the entire recorded history of humankind.

 

[mheslep]

30% more doesn't mean a lot if liberals are 200% poorer. I'ld like to see those stats first.

[ Anyway, his stats are not backed up by http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/sep/08/charitable-giving-country" .

And there's the opposite movement too. The Dutch give the highest amount of http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4785813.stm" per capita to the rest of the world, and personally also give money.

That link on the 'Commitment Index', which includes a 'greenhouse gas' factor, does not say that the Dutch give the most money. The Dutch do appear to volunteer heavily. Regarding monetary charitable gifts, http://www.ccss.jhu.edu/pdfs/CNP/CNP_comptable5_dec05.pdf"

 

[MarcoD]

That link on the 'Commitment Index', which includes a 'greenhouse gas' factor, does not say that the Dutch give the most money. The Dutch do appear to volunteer heavily. Regarding monetary charitable gifts, http://www.ccss.jhu.edu/pdfs/CNP/CNP_comptable5_dec05.pdf" and nobody else comes close.

That's nice. But I don't live in an economy with foodstamps, needy on the street, or churches. I live in a completely boring place, an atheist sanatorium. The Dutch give their money to whoever starves in the world, and earless seals, stuff like that; not to the churches, food for the 'bums,' and Israel. For the rest we watch soccer.

The stats given by the BBC are the reality, like it or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_charitable_countries"

 

[ThomasT]

The link indicates there was $150,000 in damages to the new garden where they camped?

The link indicates that the city was charged $150,000 for the plantings by whoever did the plantings (Any overcharging and kickback action there ... who knows?), not that the demonstrators did that much damage. The link did suggest that they did some damage.

Did they have a permit to camp in the garden?

Apparently not, or it expired. The arrests were for trespassing, afaik.

 

[ThomasT]

Democracy Now!
MSNBC
CNN
http://www.foxnews.com/us/index.html
Huffington Post

I was in the process of listing some news sources and noticed that scrolling down the Huffington Post front page brings up a pretty extensive list of internet links to various news sources, columnists, blogs, etc.

Here's an http://www.politico.com/largevideobox.html?id=1206959564001 who shares some of the concerns and frustrations of the OWS demonstrators.

 

[ThomasT]

... I don't live in an economy with foodstamps, needy on the street, or churches. I live in a completely boring place, an atheist sanatorium.

The more I learn about the Dutch, the more I like them. If it weren't for the fact that your country is below sea level I'd probably consider moving there.

 

[MarcoD]

The more I learn about the Dutch, the more I like them. If it weren't for the fact that your country is below sea level I'd probably consider moving there.

Ah, it's always nice to hear that. But, trust me, it'll take adaption time too. Dutch politics are as alien, or singular, to a foreigner as the US politics is to me. And what we consider to be frank, or egalitarian, other cultures often find outright rude.

You'll miss lots of stuff which is good about the US also soon enough, as I would miss the stuff which makes me Dutch.

 

[Galteeth]

That's nice. But I don't live in an economy with foodstamps, needy on the street, or churches. I live in a completely boring place, an atheist sanatorium. The Dutch give their money to whoever starves in the world, and earless seals, stuff like that; not to the churches, food for the 'bums,' and Israel. For the rest we watch soccer.

The stats given by the BBC are the reality, like it or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_charitable_countries"

well...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_squatting_ban
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/dutch-police-forcibly-disperse-squatters-demonstration-in-amsterdam-17-arrested/2011/10/01/gIQAEei8CL_story.html

 

[MarcoD]

Give it a rest. What do you care about reality, if you assume you can hand waive reality be whatever you want?

Nah, I gave it a rest already. But these stats are pretty much meaningless. It is both bad and good about the US, the fact that people sometime take a day off to work in a church for the poor. It is just alien to the Dutch, who expect the state to take care of that, but also can become egotistical because of that.

It's one of my things with exported Anglo-Saxon capitalism. What if you only export the 'bling-bling,' but not the accompanying community values? You end up with pretty perverse behavior in other countries.

 

[Char. Limit]

Ah, it's always nice to hear that. But, trust me, it'll take adaption time too. Dutch politics are as alien, or singular, to a foreigner as the US politics is to me. And what we consider to be frank, or egalitarian, other cultures often find outright rude.

You'll miss lots of stuff which is good about the US also soon enough, as I would miss the stuff which makes me Dutch.

And now I want to move there.

 

[MarcoD]

well...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_squatting_ban
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/dutch-police-forcibly-disperse-squatters-demonstration-in-amsterdam-17-arrested/2011/10/01/gIQAEei8CL_story.html

Oh that. I've been around squatters a lot; I often disagree with them. They're mostly a pretty boring people, ideological hippy youth comes closest. Some real protest happens about once every ten years; it looks more violent than it is.

I mean boring as that we have about one drive-by shooting around every three years in the Netherlands. A bunch of ducks crossing the streets can cause a national incident; it is a pretty boring well-run place. [ Not official stats, just joking. ]

 

[mheslep]

Many US states of similar size to the Netherlands (e.g. Pennsylvania, Virginia) are also relatively well run places.

 

[JDoolin]

Every evening, the same 10 friends eat dinner together, family style, at the same restaurant. The bill for all 10 comes to $100. They always pay it the way we pay taxes:
• The first four are poor and pay nothing.
• The fifth pays $1.
• The sixth pays $3.
• The seventh, $7
• The eighth, $12.
• The ninth, $18.
• The 10th, (the most well-to-do) pays $59.

Great! That sounds just. What are we arguing about then?

You're not suggesting that you let the first seven people starve to death are you?

Okay, technically just the first 6. The seventh one can probably make it on 70% of the food he's hungry for. But on a 30% diet, you'd be starving. On a 10% diet, probably starving to death. In any case, by extension, if you see this as unfair, then how do you feel about feeding your kids and grandchildren? How much are they paying to eat?

What you want is the same as saying Kenyans make up 1% of the population they are not allowed to have more then 1 pair of shoes anymore if they already have more thne 1 pair of shoes we need to take them away and give them to the Jamaicans. We are the 99% and we can do that since their are more of us.

No, what I want is for the poor Kenyans to be given access to clean water, a roof over their heads, education, opportunity, a healthy diet, and sure, why not? shoes. I don't care if one Kenyan has eight pairs of shoes, but yes, it would be nice for each to have at least one pair of shoes. And yeah, we are the 99% and we can do that, since there are more of us.

 

[JDoolin]

my bold
This started back in Post 214 - please note I added **** to separate our comments.

"WhoWee

Posts: 1,049
Recognitions:
PF Contributor
Re: Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York
Originally Posted by JDoolin
Well, when you protest against the poor, you're not really likely to get arrested, regardless of how misguided you are. When you protest against the rich, there's considerably more chance of being arrested.
****
Who protested against the poor? Please support."

I really don't think your rant (that I highlighted in bold) supports your original comment. Also, what is the source for your definition of "ANTI-POOR"?

Just show me a Tea-Party sponsored food pantry, or a Tea-Party sponsored homeless shelter. Please, I'm just asking you to make your case that the Tea-Party is not anti-poor. Show me something that is incontrovertible proof that the Tea Party is NOT anti-poor.

 

[WhoWee]

Just show me a Tea-Party sponsored food pantry, or a Tea-Party sponsored homeless shelter. Please, I'm just asking you to make your case that the Tea-Party is not anti-poor. Show me something that is incontrovertible proof that the Tea Party is NOT anti-poor.

Never ask a question you don't know the answer to when trying to be a smarty.

http://www.summitteaparty.com/Generic.aspx?PAGE=Summit912_Middlebury_Chapel&portalName=Summit912

http://cacheteaparty.blogspot.com/2010/01/food-pantry-needs-to-expand.html

http://brightonteaparty.ning.com/profiles/blogs/gleaners-food-bank

http://rockrivertimes.com/2010/03/31/april-6-tea-party-food-drive-to-replenish-rockford-area-food-pantry/

http://bentoncountyteaparty.webs.com/apps/blog/show/5337376-bc-tea-party-canned-food-drive

 

[JDoolin]

Never ask a question you don't know the answer to when trying to be a smarty.

http://www.summitteaparty.com/Generic.aspx?PAGE=Summit912_Middlebury_Chapel&portalName=Summit912

http://cacheteaparty.blogspot.com/2010/01/food-pantry-needs-to-expand.html

http://brightonteaparty.ning.com/profiles/blogs/gleaners-food-bank

http://rockrivertimes.com/2010/03/31/april-6-tea-party-food-drive-to-replenish-rockford-area-food-pantry/

http://bentoncountyteaparty.webs.com/apps/blog/show/5337376-bc-tea-party-canned-food-drive

Thank you.

Now we are the 99%

And so are you.

 

[edward]

The link indicates there was $150,000 in damages to the new garden where they camped? Did they have a permit to camp in the garden?

The two veterans holding the large American flags certainly didn't cause the $150,000 in damage. Like I mentioned before, arrest those who probably deserved it.

As far a s a man standing in a park holding a large American flag ; let him stand there until he decides to leave, or wait until hell freezes over. Don't ever throw that flag on the ground.

Edit: There were $150,000 worth of new plants in the park. There was no actual number or value given for plants destroyed or damaged if any.

 

[gravenewworld]

http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/es/09/ES0910.pdf


Of course it is contrary to Republican orthodoxy of always wanting less regulation.

Honkapohja (2009) cites deregulation of the financial
system in the 1980s as the root of both the economic downturn and the financial crisis.3 Around 1980, attractive
interest rates amplified inflows of capital; in these deregulated markets, credit expanded according to market forces.
Honkapohja notes that this “led to uncontrolled credit
expansion” and “soaring indebtedness in the private sector”
and furthermore that the rules and practices of 1969 were
left unchanged when banking was deregulated and financial
instruments evolved. The result was an increase in information asymmetry—the now all-too-familiar historical precursor to financial crises—amplified by international capital
inflows

 

[Evo]

Never ask a question you don't know the answer to when trying to be a smarty.

http://www.summitteaparty.com/Generic.aspx?PAGE=Summit912_Middlebury_Chapel&portalName=Summit912

Well, well. I guess a note to the IRS to check out if their activities are in order? :tongue:

Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

 

[mege]

Glenn Beck, while not strictly TEA Party, regularly calls people to charity on their own via 9/12 Project and other initiatives.

One example: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/glenn-be...obs-to-demonstrate-the-goodness-in-the-world/

 

[WhoWee]

Well, well. I guess a note to the IRS to check out if their activities are in order? :tongue:

From the Summit Web Site

"Summit Tea Party
Rally Guidelines and Disclaimer


Summit 9/12 & SCRG does not suggest, condone, promote, incite, overlook or tolerate acts of violence towards any persons, race or property. We believe in and abide by the rule of law as embodied in the Constitution of the United States. It is that very Constitution which provides for the proper and peaceful means for the expression of political opinion and the transition of political power.

Signs, shirts, flyers and other acts of expression are welcomed at our event. Please be advised that any sign, shirt or other act of expression that is of a racist nature, encourages a specific act of violence or does not comply with the principals and values we uphold will not be tolerated. Counter protest or any attempts or any attempts at disruption will not be tolerated.

Summit TEA Party volunteers will be monitoring the crowd and reserve the right to ask you to leave, should these guidelines not be followed. If you are asked to leave, you may be photographed and or video tapped and may be referred to the Cuyahoga Falls Police department who will be present in large numbers at this event.

Summit 9/12 and SCRG regards any reported incidents of violence, racism or destruction of property very seriously. Summit 9/12 and OSRG however do not engage in unproductive speculation or rush to judgment. Summit 9/12 and OSRG rely on the results of an official investigation by authorities before issuing a specific statement relative to any reported incident.

In the meantime, we strongly encourage all individuals concerned about any reported incidents to rely solely on reliable factual information before forming an opinion. To do otherwise, we believe, would not serve to foster an atmosphere of civil discourse and responsible actions beneficial to all."

Quite a contrast to the Occupy web site:
http://occupywallst.org/

"#OWS Stands In Solidarity With 100 Arrested At Occupy Boston"

 

[mege]

If Wall Street has given more to President Obama than any other political candidate does that mean the OWS protesters are racist just like the TEA Party? (http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/10/obama-attacks-banks-while-raking-in-wall-street-dough/)

I know they're really not (I don't believe either movement is racially motivated at all), but it's interesting how one movement gets taggest as biggots/racist/whatever and the other doesn't. However, I'm still amazed (well, kind of) at how many arrests there are at these OWS protests. Free love and peace and all that: as long as you don't disagree with my point of view!

 

[edward]

From the Summit Web Site

"Summit Tea Party
Rally Guidelines and Disclaimer


Summit 9/12 & SCRG does not suggest, condone, promote, incite, overlook or tolerate acts of violence towards any persons, race or property. We believe in and abide by the rule of law as embodied in the Constitution of the United States. It is that very Constitution which provides for the proper and peaceful means for the expression of political opinion and the transition of political power.

Signs, shirts, flyers and other acts of expression are welcomed at our event. Please be advised that any sign, shirt or other act of expression that is of a racist nature, encourages a specific act of violence or does not comply with the principals and values we uphold will not be tolerated. Counter protest or any attempts or any attempts at disruption will not be tolerated.

Summit TEA Party volunteers will be monitoring the crowd and reserve the right to ask you to leave, should these guidelines not be followed. If you are asked to leave, you may be photographed and or video tapped and may be referred to the Cuyahoga Falls Police department who will be present in large numbers at this event.

Summit 9/12 and SCRG regards any reported incidents of violence, racism or destruction of property very seriously. Summit 9/12 and OSRG however do not engage in unproductive speculation or rush to judgment. Summit 9/12 and OSRG rely on the results of an official investigation by authorities before issuing a specific statement relative to any reported incident.

In the meantime, we strongly encourage all individuals concerned about any reported incidents to rely solely on reliable factual information before forming an opinion. To do otherwise, we believe, would not serve to foster an atmosphere of civil discourse and responsible actions beneficial to all."

Quite a contrast to the Occupy web site:
http://occupywallst.org/

"#OWS Stands In Solidarity With 100 Arrested At Occupy Boston"

Quite a contrast? That link was in response to the arrests made in Boston. You mixed oranges and apples and then posted a lemon.

The group that was arrested had no chance to get a permit due to the long holiday weekend. Had they had a chance to request a permit it could not have been refused. The police raid was at 1:20 Am Monday morning.

They had trash trucks standing by and through all personal possessions, tents cameras computers etc in the trash.

 

[WhoWee]

If Wall Street has given more to President Obama than any other political candidate does that mean the OWS protesters are racist just like the TEA Party? (http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/10/obama-attacks-banks-while-raking-in-wall-street-dough/)

I know they're really not (I don't believe either movement is racially motivated at all), but it's interesting how one movement gets taggest as biggots/racist/whatever and the other doesn't. However, I'm still amazed (well, kind of) at how many arrests there are at these OWS protests. Free love and peace and all that: as long as you don't disagree with my point of view!

I'm not feeling the love and peace on their web site?

http://occupywallst.org/

"Every day the actions of the BPD, NYPD, etc. continue to remind us that the police no longer fight to "protect and serve" the American people, but rather the wealth and power of the 1%. With each passing day, as the violence of the state continues to escalate, the myth of American "democracy" becomes further shattered.

THIS IS WHAT A POLICE STATE LOOKS LIKE

And we are what democracy looks like. We do not fear your power and we will continue to fight for a better world. We will never stop growing and each day we'll continue to expand, block by block and city by city. We call upon others to join us, to take a stand against these ever encroaching threats to our liberty. We commend the brave actions of our sisters and brothers in Boston and condemn the BPD leadership. We call upon the rank-and-file police officers of this country to disobey such orders and remember that they protect and serve the people. You are one of us, the 99% and we're too big to fail."

This is interesting also: my bold

"And so we call on people to act

We call for protests to remain active in the cities. Those already there, to grow, to organize, to raise consciousnesses, for those cities where there are no protests, for protests to organize and disrupt the system.

We call for workers to not only strike, but seize their workplaces collectively, and to organize them democratically. We call for students and teachers to act together, to teach democracy, not merely the teachers to the students, but the students to the teachers. To seize the classrooms and free minds together.

We call for the unemployed to volunteer, to learn, to teach, to use what skills they have to support themselves as part of the revolting people as a community.

We call for the organization of people's assemblies in every city, every public square, every township.

We call for the seizure and use of abandoned buildings, of abandoned land, of every property seized and abandoned by speculators, for the people, for every group that will organize them.

We call for a revolution of the mind as well as the body politic."

 

[WhoWee]

Quite a contrast? That link was in response to the arrests made in Boston. You mixed oranges and apples and then posted a lemon.

The group that was arrested had no chance to get a permit due to the long holiday weekend. Had they had a chance to request a permit it could not have been refused. The police raid was at 1:20 Am Monday morning.

They had trash trucks standing by and through all personal possessions, tents cameras computers etc in the trash.

Please read through the http://occupywallst.org/ website - it seems a bit militant to me.