What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[Evo]

Al Jezeera is arabic, obviously they are anti-semitic. Let's be real here, there is no love between arabs and jews.

 

[WhoWee]

Do you also feel sorry for the merchants who lost their tea in Boston Harbor? Is it your opinion that the looters who boarded the ships and dumped the tea were nasty old rioters and criminals?

All revolutions have collateral damage.

I guess the notion of "peaceful protest" has given way to "revolution"? A revolution can be quite deadly.

What ever happened to this idea?
http://www.lyricsfire.com/viewlyrics/beatles/revolution-lyrics.htm

"You say you want a revolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out"

 

[lisab]

I guess the notion of "peaceful protest" has given way to "revolution"? A revolution can be quite deadly.

What ever happened to this idea?
http://www.lyricsfire.com/viewlyrics/beatles/revolution-lyrics.htm

"You say you want a revolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out"

So how would you have them get rid of their government? Writing letters to the editor? Carrying signs outside of the Presidential Palace?

What recourse to they have?

I like your posts, WhoWee, even if I disagree with most of them. But you're coming off as a bit of an Eeyore on this issue.

 

[WhoWee]

So how would you have them get rid of their government? Writing letters to the editor? Carrying signs outside of the Presidential Palace?

What recourse to they have?

I like your posts, WhoWee, even if I disagree with most of them. But you're coming off as a bit of an Eeyore on this issue.

Eeyore is a nice way of calling me an "arse" I assume? Fair enough. Please just realize that I don't care much for Mubarak.

I just think EVERYONE needs to slow it down a bit.

Before they were shut down (and after the Anderson Cooper report) some of the news reports that were airing seemed like they wanted the Army to open fire. After showing close-up coverage most of the day of people throwing rocks, a few were giving a play by play report of Molotov cocktails being thrown back and forth. That's not journalism or reporting - it's an attempt at ratings. IMO - it backfired on Anderson Cooper when he tried to mix with the "peaceful" demonstrators. Why in the world did he think he would be able to walk around and interview people?

Actually, I find it humorous that Anderson Cooper, "son of Gloria Laura Vanderbilt" and the "great great great grandson of Cornelius Vanderbilt, also frequently referred to as Commodore Vanderbilt", would be considered unwelcome in the angry Cairo crowd - protesting their poverty.

http://www.nnp.org/nni/Publications/Dutch-American/cooper.html

IMO again - he's lucky they didn't know his lineage.

 

[Proton Soup]

i have a hard time not thinking of Anderson Cooper as the punk that read the ABC News Insomniac Edition for so many years. and down there reporting on Katrina, he just looked scared to death and out of his element to me. this is all so strange.

 

[WhoWee]

Given the population of Egypt and Cairo specifically - responsible reporting should probably include stories beyond who threw a rock, rode a camel, or drove a car through a crowd.

This is one of those stories. (my bold)
http://www.foodbusinessnews.net/News/News%20Home/Consumer%20Trends/2011/2/Political%20unrest%20in%20Egypt%20strains%20food%20supply%20chain.aspx

"Days of upheaval in Egypt brought much of the economy of that country to a halt. While food stocks, especially wheat, were adequate, getting the food to the people often was difficult because of chaos in the streets, a breakdown in truck logistics, makeshift roadblocks and curfews, according to media reports. Long lines of people stood outside grocery stores and bakeries in Cairo, Alexandria and other cities large and small. As often takes place during natural or manmade disasters, there were incidents of food hoarding and price gouging.

In Egypt, a nation of 80 million people, one in five persons lives on an income of less than $1 a day. The government of Egypt provides 14.2 million of its poor citizens with subsidized bread. The bread subsidy constitutes the underpinning of the Egyptian social safety net. "

 

[HossamCFD]

Al Jezeera is arabic, obviously they are anti-semitic. Let's be real here, there is no love between arabs and jews.

Obviously, your understanding of the word semitic is that it is a synonym of the word jew. would you care to elaborate what this understanding is based on ?

From the Cambridge dictionaries online :
Semitic: adjective, relating to the race of people that includes Arabs and Jews, or to their languages

So Klimatos was technically 100% correct when he said "Almost everyone who works at Al Jazeera is a Semite"

 

[Lacy33]

Obviously, your understanding of the word semitic is that it is a synonym of the word jew. would you care to elaborate what this understanding is based on ?

From the Cambridge dictionaries online :
Semitic: adjective, relating to the race of people that includes Arabs and Jews, or to their languages

So Klimatos was technically 100% correct when he said "Almost everyone who works at Al Jazeera is a Semite"

Thank you for stating this.
And I would also like to say that it is not that there is no love between Arabs and Jews, we are brothers and sisters. We share some same genes from the fathers side.
I'm sure we will get along just fine. We just have not been properly introduced.

 

[HossamCFD]

Thank you for stating this.
And I would also like to say that it is not that there is no love between Arabs and Jews, we are brothers and sisters. We share some same genes from the fathers side.
I'm sure we will get along just fine. We just have not been properly introduced.

Thank YOU for your statement.

There's a lot more than genes that is in common. Muslims (not implying that all Arabs are muslims, though) are told to eat Kosher food if they can't find Halal food. Love has and will always be there, but in order to find it you have to establish justice first.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread. What's happening in Egypt is not about Jews nor Arabs. It's about a nation that is fighting for its freedom, and a regime that is determined to burn everything before leaving.

Take care

 

[Jasongreat]

Although I don't have an opinion on what is happening in Egypt, nor do I really care. Imo the people of every country have the right to do what ever they want as long as it doesn't affect my country. I do have an opinion on what will happen from looking at the history of previous uprisings, or revolutions.

Do you also feel sorry for the merchants who lost their tea in Boston Harbor? Is it your opinion that the looters who boarded the ships and dumped the tea were nasty old rioters and criminals?

All revolutions have collateral damage.

I don't feel sorry for the merchants, the east India company(a british government imposed monopoly), although I do think there was a problem with the mob mentallity that fueled the looters that dumped the tea. There has never been anything good that was born within a mob. To the part I bolded, some have more than others, more on that later. Evo responded with:

That's very true.

What many people don't realize about the American revoltion is that it wasn't a revolution of the people, it was a revolution of the wealthy merchants that didn't like their profits being undercut.

Close, it was a revolution of the more learned of society, not just wealthy merchants trying to save their profits. The masses hadnt much to do with it until they gave the end result their approval. It wasnt the idea of the masses and forced by them to happen.
It was born of the enlightenment, when people were becoming aware of their natural rights and started to believe that:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

According to my reading of history, the founders pleaded with their king many, many times before they resorted to throwing of the shackles and went about forming our own government. The ideas were born of studying the history of other governments and was planned and started to be implemented long before they ever started to rise up. They tried one form of republicanism, before and during the revolution, but when that form was found lacking shortly after, they changed it to the form of republicanism that we had for a while thereafter. I do grant that the founders had a better situation inorder to make this happen than the egyptians have today, since they revolted against a government that was not in country, they were colonies well removed.

The media is trying to paint the riot in egypt as a great thing, and fawning over the possible birth of a new democracy(which is mob rule). However, the egyptians haven't even decided what form their new government is going to take, all they know is they want this one gone and will riot till it happens. Atleast that's my take, and it reminds me of another revolution that happened and didnt turn out very well. Remember this one:

The French Revolution (French: Révolution française; 1789–99) was a period of radical social and political upheaval in French and European history. The absolute monarchy that had ruled France for centuries collapsed in three years. French society underwent an epic transformation as feudal, aristocratic and religious privileges evaporated under a sustained assault from liberal political groups and the masses on the streets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

I think Egypts problems are only going to get worse, I hope I'm wrong. As I truly feel it is the Egyptian people's right to change their government if they wish to do so, I just think they are going about it the wrong way. And I am sick of the comparisons with the US revolution, what is happening there and what happened here are nothing alike, so far.

 

[Nicodemus]

This may be a dumb question, but are all of those people in Tahrir Square praying? It's hard to tell from the video, but it's a very impressive sight. If that crowd marches on Mubarak's home, is there any force left to oppose them?

 

[OmCheeto]

Ahahaha, I would listen to Al Jazeera before O'Reilly!

I never listen to O'Reilly. The only reason I found that clip was because Al Jazeera was down.

And it looks like a few people may have taken my post seriously. My bad. With very few exceptions, I get all of my news from Al Jazeera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyFbdZXH5gs

"Rob Reynolds, Al Jazeera, Los Angeles"? Anyone know if he's a Semite? Should anyone care?

 

[lisab]

This may be a dumb question, but are all of those people in Tahrir Square praying? It's hard to tell from the video, but it's a very impressive sight. If that crowd marches on Mubarak's home, is there any force left to oppose them?

Not only are they praying, Christian Egyptians protesting with them are *protecting* them as they pray.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ands-protect-Muslims-pray-Cairo-protests.html

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Not only are they praying, Christian Egyptians protesting with them are *protecting* them as they pray.

Great news lisab!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Do you also feel sorry for the merchants who lost their tea in Boston Harbor? Is it your opinion that the looters who boarded the ships and dumped the tea were nasty old rioters and criminals?

All revolutions have collateral damage.

Thanks for that very brilliant viewpoint klimatos!

I’m not sure if you are aware on how scathing your point on the "tea issue" really is?? Nevertheless, it doesn’t matter, it’s sharp!

But, let’s not blame everything on the "tea bags"; as usual it’s the physicians fault!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke" , and the French "coffee" must be considered a pretty strong ingredient as well.

The question is – Why on Earth does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Declaration_of_the_Rights_of_Man_and_of_the_Citizen" not count for Egyptians?? I don’t get it?

They should live on $1 a day + bread from Mubarak’s son for yet another >30 years??

This is insane. We cannot talk about democracy and liberty in a trustworthy way – and at same time supporting a brutal dictator with scandalous "Nazi methods". It just doesn’t work.

We have seen homemade "global conspiracy theories" in this thread, which at best is 'uproarious': All global news media BBC, CNN, etc, and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and President Barack Obama, and senior United States Senator John Kerry, and senior United States Senator John McCain, and the Chancellor of Germany Angela Merkel, and the President of the French Republic Nicolas Sarkozy, and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom David Cameron, etc, etc – are all together in an "Global (communist?) Islamic Revolution"? In close hands with the Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei...?

This is just a 'little' bit too stupid, right?

Yes, this is a risky game, but what is the alternative? Start up the tanks and run over hundreds of thousands of demonstrators? What 'impact' would that have on the already 'infectious' Middle East?

Mubarak and his goons have made every fault possible in the book on "How to handle a demonstration". He is responsible alone for what have happened.



P.S:
To make 'everything' perfectly clear: The Muslim Brothers and their 'connections' to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Gama%27a_al-Islamiyya" scare the sh*t out me. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Ali Khamenei makes me want to throw up – violent and primitive troglodytes.

If we replace the totalitarian Mubarak regime with Ayatollahs and Sharia laws, that will send the Egypt women back to the Middle Ages – we have achieved nothing – only another step backwards into darkness.

Let’s do everything possible to not let this happen.

This is "our" chance to show the "Mullahtollahs" that there is different way, and that the Egyptians can too.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Let's be real here, there is no love between arabs and jews.

Agree, but does this count for all Arabs and Jews?

 

[Lacy33]

Not only are they praying, Christian Egyptians protesting with them are *protecting* them as they pray.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ands-protect-Muslims-pray-Cairo-protests.html

This has to be one of the most beautiful pictures I've seen in forever!
Thank you Lisab.

b"h

Oh Mr. Avocado... Please give that lady in your art work there a jacket please!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

So how would you have them get rid of their government? Writing letters to the editor? Carrying signs outside of the Presidential Palace?

So why isn’t there an award as "PF BRIGHTEST PERSON"??

Brilliant, funny and intelligent lisab!

I like your posts, WhoWee, even if I disagree with most of them. But you're coming off as a bit of an Eeyore on this issue.

...I’m a little unsure on the 'translation'... is this the one...?

 

[WhoWee]

This is insane. We cannot talk about democracy and liberty in a trustworthy way – and at same time supporting a brutal dictator with scandalous "Nazi methods". It just doesn’t work.

We have seen homemade "global conspiracy theories" in this thread, which at best is 'uproarious': All global news media BBC, CNN, etc, and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and President Barack Obama, and senior United States Senator John Kerry, and senior United States Senator John McCain, and the Chancellor of Germany Angela Merkel, and the President of the French Republic Nicolas Sarkozy, and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom David Cameron, etc, etc – are all together in an "Global (communist?) Islamic Revolution"? In close hands with the Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei...?

You claim "We have seen homemade "global conspiracy theories" in this thread". Please show the specific link - and as you've specified please.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Oh Mr. Avocado... Please give that lady in your art work there a jacket please!

Ouch! Infraction!?


()

 

[Evo]

Agree, but does this count for all Arabs and Jews?

You can never say "all", which is why I didn't. My mother was born and raised in Algeria, my uncle was kidnapped in Libya and held as a political prisoner, so even though we are neither Arab nor Jewish (I still don't get why the need to differeniate Jewish), I still have some insight into the thinking of people in the Middle East.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

we are brothers and sisters. We share some same genes from the fathers side.

Can we split that "new award"??

Thanks Lacy, if we all could remember this – it would be a much better world.

As a "believer in science", I would like to stress this and say – we all share the same genes globally, from the same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve" !

It’s proved by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_[URL="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/when-did-mitochondria-evolve/"]mitochondria[/URL]l_DNA_haplogroups" , are basically 'cousins' since between 70,000 and 60,000 years ago.

[PLAIN]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Migration_map4.png

 

[Evo]

Let's please stay on topic. No more sidetracking.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

You can never say "all", which is why I didn't. My mother was born and raised in Algeria, my uncle was kidnapped in Libya and held as a political prisoner, so even though we are neither Arab nor Jewish (I still don't get why the need to differeniate Jewish), I still have some insight into the thinking of people in the Middle East.

Thanks Evo, always great to have people who know what they are talking about (as a difference to mumbling me ).

I’m just guessing here; but aren’t many of the confrontations 'artificial creatures' from "the top"?


EDIT:
Okay

 

[Lacy33]

Can we split that "new award"??

Avocado! Get your stick out of the soup! And if you get an infraction today, I swear I will hunt you down and make you eat my cholent!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

This may be a dumb question, but are all of those people in Tahrir Square praying? It's hard to tell from the video, but it's a very impressive sight.

Not dumb at all. This is one of these things that 'trouble' me. Of course the Egyptians are in their full right to praying to anything they find valuable...

I don’t know... BUT now lisab has shown that there is a real 'coalition' between Muslims & Christians, rich & poor, dark & white! And this is great!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Avocado! Get your stick out of the soup! And if you get an infraction today, I swear I will hunt you down and make you eat my cholent!

que?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

The pro-democracy protests were remarkably peaceful, and included men, women, and children of all ages. The "pro Mubarak" faction were bussed/trucked in and they had camels, horses, whips and other weapons. Is there any any reasonable deniability that would absolve Mubarak from complicity in the suppression of the pro-democracy protests? I'd like to see it, apart from Eqyptian state television that blames foreign journalists for all the the conflict.

Correct. And what happened today?? No violence, no Molotov cocktails, no knives, no guns, no fire – just dancing and cheering masses of peaceful people...

Have the pro-Mubarak goons given up already!? What happened??

I’m very curios on what is going to 'explain' this... "The Goons Day of Rest and Reloads"...??

 

[mheslep]

... the 180 degrees shift in US foreign policy in the middle east (one of the possible interpretations of the prize), which the current administration has certainly not always sustained, but at least did recently in the direct address to Mubarak.

Obama addressing Mubarak is a 180 degree shift in US foreign policy? Could you please explain? In what time frame do you mean - the last two years?

 

[Nicodemus]

Not only are they praying, Christian Egyptians protesting with them are *protecting* them as they pray.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ands-protect-Muslims-pray-Cairo-protests.html

OK, thanks. I thought that was what they were doing, but I was seeing Skype or the like and it was hard to tell.

 

[humanino]

Obama addressing Mubarak is a 180 degree shift in US foreign policy? Could you please explain? In what time frame do you mean - the last two years?

I had in my mind a 180 degrees with respect to the previous policy, before his administration altogether, and in particular w.r.t. GWB. That is a relevant ingredient in Obama's peace prize (as sad as it is to admit it). For instance, France's minister of foreign affairs officially declared their opposition to Tunisia Jasmine Revolution. I have not seen the US administration commit such faux pas.

 

[mheslep]

I had in my mind a 180 degrees with respect to the previous policy, before his administration altogether, and in particular w.r.t. GWB. That is a relevant ingredient in Obama's peace prize (as sad as it is to admit it). ...

GWB? Bush spoke out in favor of democracy in the Middle East - aggressively so, and often, though not continuously. Sec of State Rice went to Cairo and gave a speech doing the same. I'll provide references if you like. So I'm not clear what you mean.

 

[Proton Soup]

GWB? Bush spoke out in favor of democracy in the Middle East - aggressively so, and often, though not continuously. Sec of State Rice went to Cairo and gave a speech doing the same. I'll provide references if you like. So I'm not clear what you mean.

i think he is referring to GWB's policy to not even engage with countries like Iran. Obama reversed that. we can talk, even if we don't agree.

 

[humanino]

If you do not see any shift in the US administration foreign policy in the Middle East between GWB and Obama, I am sorry, do not intend to justify the above statements, and will refer to wikipedia.

the speech would attempt to mend the United States' relations with the Muslim world, which he wrote were "severely damaged" during the presidency of GWB

For that matter, note also that nobody ever threw a shoe at Obama.

If you disagree with the wikipedia article or my opinions in general, let us leave this at a disagreement. I shared my opinion and did not state it as a fact but rather as an interpretation or ingredients for an interpretation. The relevant messages I posted in this thread were properly phrased as "I was wondering [...]", "I was thinking [...]" or "I had in mind [...]".

 

[mheslep]

If you do not see any shift in the US administration foreign policy in the Middle East between GWB and Obama, ...

I thought we referring in particular to events in Egypt, and in particular there to what degree have various administrations supported "people taking to the streets."

In the context of Egypt, I have to wonder how many people were motivated by [...] the speech by Obama [...] to take to the streets?

I was actually wondering about that, but I thought I would not post it here because some may feel this is too much attributing to him. I am sure Vanadium knows that history is made by tens or hundreds of thousands of individuals, while history books remember only a few leaders. The reason I was thinking about this is rather in terms of Obama's prize as an incentive to pursue the 180 degrees shift in US foreign policy in the middle east (one of the possible interpretations of the prize),

Thus I thought we were discussing a comparison of US support for (or to ignore?) democratic movements such as I hope are breaking out now in Egypt. Again, the question is not how warm and cozy is the US with the Middle East, but who via their policy has supported the idea of democratic breakouts on behalf of the people there, and who wants to do, well, otherwise.

I believe that freedom is the future of the Middle East, because I believe that freedom is the future of all humanity. And the historic achievement of democracy in the broader Middle East will be a victory shared by all. Millions who now live in oppression and want will finally have a chance to provide for their families and lead hopeful lives.
...
Western nations, including my own, want to be helpful in the democratic progress of the Middle East, yet we know there are suspicions, rooted in centuries of conflict and colonialism. And in the last 60 years, many in the West have added to this distrust by excusing tyranny in the region, hoping to purchase stability at the price of liberty. But it did not serve the people of the Middle East to betray their hope of freedom. And it has not made Western nations more secure to ignore the cycle of dictatorship and extremism. Instead we have seen the malice grow deeper, and the violence spread, until both have appeared on the streets of our own cities. Some types of hatred will never be appeased; they must be opposed and discredited and defeated by a hopeful alternative -- and that alternative is freedom.
...
The rise of Iraqi democracy is bringing hope to reformers across the Middle East, and sending a very different message to Teheran and Damascus
...
Thank you, and God bless the good people of Turkey.

http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2004/June/20040629081619frllehctim0.1081812.html

Secretary Rice, 2005 speech in Cairo:

Ladies and Gentlemen: In our world today, a growing number of men and women are securing their liberty.

And as these people gain the power to choose, they create democratic governments to protect their natural rights.

We should all look to a future when every government respects the will of its citizens -- because the ideal of democracy is universal.

For 60 years, the United States pursued stability at the expense of democracy in the Middle East -- and we achieved neither.

Now, we are taking a different course. We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people.

As President Bush said in his Second Inaugural Address: “America will not impose our style of government on the unwilling. Our goal instead is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom, and make their own way.
...
Here in the Middle East, the long hopeful process of democratic change is now beginning to unfold.

Millions of people are demanding freedom for themselves and democracy for their countries.

To these courageous men and women, I say today: All free nations will stand with you as you secure the blessings of your own liberty.