Why are we concentrating on gay specific bullying instead of all bullying?

[Newai]

I've never had an adult spit on me or put gum in my hair. In middle school, kids did. Just personal anecdotes, though...

My experiences in school with bullies put me in the hospital a number of times. Yet, I've had it much worse with some adults on the street who've tried to kill me.

Personal anecdotes do not quantify.

 

[Char. Limit]

My experiences in school with bullies put me in the hospital a number of times. Yet, I've had it much worse with some adults on the street who've tried to kill me.

Personal anecdotes do not quantify.

Technically they do: 1 personal anecdote, 2 personal anecdotes, 3 personal anecdotes...

 

[lisab]

Technically they do: 1 personal anecdote, 2 personal anecdotes, 3 personal anecdotes...

:rofl: by golly, you're right...!

 

[Newai]

Technically they do: 1 personal anecdote, 2 personal anecdotes, 3 personal anecdotes...

Each coming down to personal opinion of how their experiences differ by weight of seriousness. Does a poll asking for the number of people who have been hurt by adults versus hurt by kids quantify which group is "meaner" or worse?

I think everyone knows what I meant. Maybe this is better: Personal anecdotes do not quantify which group is worse.

 

[Char. Limit]

Each coming down to personal opinion of how their experiences differ by weight of seriousness. Does a poll asking for the number of people who have been hurt by adults versus hurt by kids quantify which group is "meaner" or worse?

I think everyone knows what I meant. Maybe this is better: Personal anecdotes do not quantify which group is worse.

Personally, and I know you don't recognize this as valid, I've experienced like up to college kids, and I would say that so far, middle-schoolers were the worst.

 

[JaredJames]

Children are definitely the worst when it comes to bullying. They can be truly brutal.

Most adults, at worst will stare. Children have no problem with pointing out, whether verbally or by physically indicating to someone, something they notice to be 'wrong' with the person.

Wales doesn't have many coloured people, even less 15 years ago. When my sister was out with my family when she was a little girl she saw her first black person. She pointed and shouted "dad, what's that?".
Now we were both brought up never to attack people or be nasty to others (basically the way Evo described), but the sight was so different to her that she simply didn't understand it and had to say something.
Although that in itself isn't bullying, it tells me that there is a difference between a child seeing something they don't know/like/understand, and an adult. A child won't hold back and will ask about it, highlight the issue, poke fun at it. Although some adults can be bad, the majority would never do that.

 

[Newai]

Personally, and I know you don't recognize this as valid, I've experienced like up to college kids, and I would say that so far, middle-schoolers were the worst.

I suppose then this means that those mean kids will more likely grow up into good, kind adults. And that good, kind adults are more likely to have been mean kids.

Yeah.

 

[JaredJames]

I suppose then this means that those mean kids will more likely grow up into good, kind adults. And that good, kind adults are more likely to have been mean kids.

Yeah.

How do you figure that?

 

[Newai]

How do you figure that?

"Children are definitely the worst when it comes to bullying. They can be truly brutal."

Well, you tell me. Do these brutal bullies usually become kind, decent adults?

 

[Jack21222]

My experiences in school with bullies put me in the hospital a number of times. Yet, I've had it much worse with some adults on the street who've tried to kill me.

Personal anecdotes do not quantify.

Did those adults who tried to kill you do it because they found it funny? Or did they want something from you (i.e. robbery)? Were they out for revenge? Were you a witness to a crime?

I'd say adults rarely harm others just because it's fun. They're more likely to do it for personal gain. Kids, on the other hand, will hurt others for laughs.

 

[JaredJames]

"Children are definitely the worst when it comes to bullying. They can be truly brutal."

Well, you tell me. Do these brutal bullies usually become kind, decent adults?

You said it, so there must be a reason you believe it.

From my experience, no they don't. I didn't like them in school because of how they were and I don't like them now, because they're still like it.

However, most children will pick on another child at some point, even if it's something minor. Children who aren't normally nasty can still be rather brutal when it comes to having a go at someone. They take things too far and don't know when to stop. These kids don't make a habit of bullying, it's something of a one off.
So I'd have to say it's only people who are continuously bullying others that turn out badly as adults in my experience.

 

[Newai]

Did those adults who tried to kill you do it because they found it funny? Or did they want something from you (i.e. robbery)? Were they out for revenge? Were you a witness to a crime?

I'd say adults rarely harm others just because it's fun. They're more likely to do it for personal gain. Kids, on the other hand, will hurt others for laughs.

So it's the intent, not the actual act itself, that determines its seriousness, its effect on a victim? And for laughs is not for personal gain?

 

[JaredJames]

So it's the intent, not the actual act itself, that determines its seriousness, its effect on a victim? And for laughs is not for personal gain?

There is a difference between bullying and mugging.

Bullying:

Bullying is an act of repeated aggressive behavior in order to intentionally hurt another person, physically or mentally. Bullying is characterized by an individual behaving in a certain way to gain power over another person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying#Definition

An adult attacking another in a one off act is not bullying that person. Mugging someone is a one off act of violence aimed at robbing that person of some personal possession or money.

 

[Newai]

You said it, so there must be a reason you believe it.

Which part is 'what I said'?

 

[JaredJames]

I suppose then this means that those mean kids will more likely grow up into good, kind adults. And that good, kind adults are more likely to have been mean kids.

Yeah.

That bit. You said bullies are more likely to be kind adults. I responded to this, at which point you asked me to clarify whether or not I believed it to be the case.

 

[Newai]

There is a difference between bullying and mugging.

Bullying:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying#Definition

An adult attacking another in a one off act is not bullying that person.

Back up here. We can separate bullies from muggers all you want. The disagreement I have is this claim that children are worse than adults.

 

[Newai]

That bit. You said bullies are more likely to be kind adults. I responded to this, at which point you asked me to clarify whether or not I believed it to be the case.

No. That was an interpretation of Char. Limit's comment at https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2994593#post2994593

Did you think I was replying to you?

 

[JaredJames]

Back up here. We can separate bullies from muggers all you want. The disagreement I have is this claim that children are worse than adults.

Why do you disagree?

Everything I have seen agrees with children being worse. As I said previously, children don't know when to stop, they don't know what 'going too far' is. They have no problems with pointing out problems people have.

How often do you see adults in the news who are being bullied in comparison to children in the news for being bullied?

 

[JaredJames]

No. That was an interpretation of Char. Limit's comment at https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2994593#post2994593

All Char Limit said was that he found middle school, younger kids to be worse (nastier) when it comes to bullying over college kids. Nothing to interpret.

What he said indicated in no way how he saw bullies becoming adults.

 

[Newai]

Why do you disagree?

Everything I have seen agrees with children being worse. As I said previously, children don't know when to stop, they don't know what 'going too far' is. They have no problems with pointing out problems people have.

How often do you see adults in the news who are being bullied in comparison to children in the news for being bullied?

Again... Again... Again...

I know this thread is about bullying, and you seem to be stuck on that. My disagreement goes all the way back to my first post in this thread about children being worse than adults. Without any way of justifying that beyond personal anecdotes, it's simply unsubstantiated, and potentially thus against forum rules.

All Char Limit said was that he found middle school, younger kids to be worse (nastier) when it comes to bullying over college kids. Nothing to interpret.

What he said indicated in no way how he saw bullies becoming adults.

*blinks*

 

[Jack21222]

Again... Again... Again...

I know this thread is about bullying, and you seem to be stuck on that. My disagreement goes all the way back to my first post in this thread about children being worse than adults. Without any way of justifying that beyond personal anecdotes, it's simply unsubstantiated, and potentially thus against forum rules.



*blinks*

Not worse! Meaner. It's meaner to torture somebody for fun than it is to attack them for money.

 

[Newai]

Not worse! Meaner. It's meaner to torture somebody for fun than it is to attack them for money.

I don't understand the difference.

 

[Char. Limit]

No. That was an interpretation of Char. Limit's comment at https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2994593#post2994593

Did you think I was replying to you?

Odd, since I didn't mention adults at all, unless you consider college kids to be "adult".

 

[FlexGunship]

I don't understand the difference.

Really?

One is a sadistic behavior; the torment of another individual for the pleasure of seeing them in pain. You could do this to a hamster.

The other is an act of violence perpetrated for immediate personal gain. Something you couldn't do to a hamster.

That's a surprisingly stark difference (well, even without the hamster thing). Sociopathic behavior is an end in its own right. Whereas robbery, violence is incidental to the actual theft.

 

[JaredJames]

Really?

One is a sadistic behavior; the torment of another individual for the pleasure of seeing them in pain. You could do this to a hamster.

The other is an act of violence perpetrated for immediate personal gain. Something you couldn't do to a hamster.

That's a surprisingly stark difference (well, even without the hamster thing). Sociopathic behavior is an end in its own right. Whereas robbery, violence is incidental to the actual theft.

I think he mean't between "worse" and "meaner".

 

[Al68]

The other is an act of violence perpetrated for immediate personal gain. Something you couldn't do to a hamster.

I have to disagree with that. Hamsters are tasty.

 

[JaredJames]

I have to disagree with that. Hamsters are tasty.

A statement I never want to hear the explanation for...

 

[Char. Limit]

A statement I never want to hear the explanation for...

Hamsters taste good. Therefore, they are tasty.

 

[Newai]

Odd, since I didn't mention adults at all, unless you consider college kids to be "adult".

You didn't have to given that your comment was a reply to mine:

Each coming down to personal opinion of how their experiences differ by weight of seriousness. Does a poll asking for the number of people who have been hurt by adults versus hurt by kids quantify which group is "meaner" or worse?

I think everyone knows what I meant. Maybe this is better: Personal anecdotes do not quantify which group is worse.

 

[Char. Limit]

You didn't have to given that your comment was a reply to mine:

I responded to the last part, not the first.

 

[Hepth]

Again... Again... Again...

I know this thread is about bullying, and you seem to be stuck on that. My disagreement goes all the way back to my first post in this thread about children being worse than adults. Without any way of justifying that beyond personal anecdotes, it's simply unsubstantiated, and potentially thus against forum rules.

I agree with this. If you want COMMON counter examples wear a Michigan jersey to an Ohio State football game, or any million other combinations of sports apparel. Its a very similar situation, including a lot of group mentality; though people do individually act out, some more than others.

Doesn't always get violent, but there is an abundant amount of heckling and bullying in the sports world. I'm sure there are other large examples than sports too, have to think of some.

 

[Char. Limit]

I agree with this. If you want COMMON counter examples wear a Michigan jersey to an Ohio State football game, or any million other combinations of sports apparel. Its a very similar situation, including a lot of group mentality; though people do individually act out, some more than others.

Doesn't always get violent, but there is an abundant amount of heckling and bullying in the sports world. I'm sure there are other large examples than sports too, have to think of some.

Pretty much every big rivalry ever?

 

[Hepth]

Pretty much every big rivalry ever?

Perhaps its a different type of bullying now that I think about it. Maybe a little worse as you're taunting a complete stranger for their choice in supporting a sports team, rather than someone you see every day in class, most oft for many years.

Takes more guts to bully a stranger about whom you have no idea of their reactions to taunting than a classmate who has been picked on for years, and has never retaliated.

 

[BobG]

A cynical person would say the better the bully can perceive possible negative consequences coming towards himself, the less likely he is to bully - and that's the only difference between children and adults.

Hence the mob mentality. There's strength in numbers, which makes it important to belong to the group no matter what. The bullying emphasizes the difference between being "on the bus" and "off the bus".

Adults are a little more sophisticated in their thought process and realize the negative consequences don't have to happen at that instant to be negative. The fact that the victim knows what happened and has avenues to bring bad consequences on the bully stifles the bullying.

Absent those constraints, say a town where it's acceptable to bully a minority group, not only do you have the same pre-adolescent levels of bullying such as saying this is your water fountain and this is mine, etc, but adults can step it up to another level, to the point of lynchings, killings, etc.

Or, if an adult is in a situation where he feels total control, such as with a child, the bullying can jump to sexual molestation, etc.

An adult's ability to see and avoid bad consequences in the future is main reason for adults not bullying as much as kids do. The change in behavior (avoiding bad consequences) comes first, and then the kids or adults slowly bring their morals into line with their behavior.

A more optimistic person would say changing the morals via education comes first, and then is followed by a change in behavior.

I think there's probably a mix between both, since there's many kids that are a little more capable of empathy and see the reactions of the other person as a negative consequence and never really develop a habit of bullying (but it would be a very rare child that didn't at least give it a go to see what happens). And maybe even a few of the childhood bullies develop empathy, it just took them longer to develop it. But there are a lot of people who are only kept in line by the fear of negative consequences and it's only the improved ability to perceive possible negative consequences that change their behavior.

 

[JaredJames]

I was actually going to reply the same as BobG. When it comes to adults, sporting events are definitely one of the main places bullying can occur. However, I think the main part of this is the mob mentality combined with anonymity.

Whereas bullying in a school is a lot more personal and can have much deeper effects on the victim.

A random person calling you "gay" is one thing, but a person you know, someone you should be able to trust calling you "gay" is going to have a far more profound effect.

Although I do agree that bullying is apparent in all walks of life, the severity of the act does differ.