News Why are we concentrating on gay specific bullying instead of all bullying?

[WhoWee]

A child or a gay person does not want anything except to be left alone - and are bullied anyway.

Do you have a link to support this assertion?

 

[JaredJames]

Are you serious - using a reference to a sex act (to label a member of a group) is not offensive?

You are pusing it as a reference to a gay male sex act and as such, calling someone it implies they are homosexual.

It isn't a reference to a gay male sex act. So calling someone it implies they are either a homosexual male or a heterosexual male or female. Aside from being a lesbian, how could you find that offensive?

"Oi you, you're a straight male!" - how offensive.

 

[JaredJames]

Do you have a link to support this assertion?

What assertion? Are you trying to say that gay people and children want to be picked on and bullied? That they want attention for what they are?

Labelling yourself as something voluntarily is different to being labelled by something you have no control over.

A white/black person is that colour through no control of their own.

A person who is a republican, is so by choice. They chose that label.

Can you not see how picking on someone for the colour of their skin is worse than picking on someone for their choice of political party?

 

[DaveC426913]

Do you have a link to support this assertion?

What assertion? That, by default, people want to be left alone and not attacked unless they step into an arena of discourse? Yah, I'll get right on finding a reference for that...

The assertion you should be questioning is the other one - that Tea Partiers have something to say and that they step into the arena of discourse, which opens them up to attack.

 

[DaveC426913]

What assertation? Are you trying to say that gay people and children want to be picked on and bullied? That they want attention for what they are?

What he said.

 

[Evo]

Do you have a link to support this assertion?

Some facts do not require a citation, like we have one sun in or solar system, planets orbit around this sun, the Earth has large amounts of water, people don't like to be bullied.

Recognizing Victims

Those who are bullied usually hide this from their parents and they usually prefer to deal with the problem alone.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Emotional-Bullying-in-Children

Stop the trolling.

 

[mugaliens]

Bullying in all forms is a basic lack of respect for the differences of others.

On the other hand, when those differences pose a threat to either certain segments of society or society at large, limits must be established, and enforced.

It's a conundrum, no doubt about it.

 

[Gokul43201]

Have any gays been taunted in a public forum by members of the press and elected politicians?

I was going to try and list some of the numerous taunts, like Dick Armey referring to Barney Frank as "Barney Fag", but for want of time, and to keep this closer to the topic, I'll defer to Cindy McCain:

"Our political and religious leaders tell LGBT youth that they have no future ... They can't serve our country openly ... Our government treats the LGBT community like second-class citizens, why shouldn't they [the bullies]?"

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2dKHrsZEKM&feature=related

 

[FlexGunship]

I'm just going to dive in here, guys... okay? I've read everything leading up to this point, but I don't want to join the current back-and-forth... so I'm going to re-energize this thread with a thought-provoking and powerful post!

I'd like to propose that there are differing degrees of bullying based on the victim even when the act itself might be the same.

An example:

• Verbally assaulting someone for their inability to keep up with you in a race
• Verbally assaulting someone in a wheel-chair for their inability to keep up with you in a race

Perhaps we would agree that one act of bullying is somehow more immoral than the other. And we might decide to attribute this to the victim's inability to change the facet of their existence that they are being taunted for (i.e. most people could choose to practice becoming a faster runner, but this is probably untrue for someone who is unable to walk).

So, if we can agree that all equivalent acts of bullying are not equally immoral, then we could probably start the discussion about which types of bullying are worst.

I would say that acts of bullying perpetrated against a permanently disabled person are the worst kinds of bullying. People with terminal illnesses and mental disabilities like autism. Perhaps these are first-class bullying acts. In fact, these have been shown to contribute to cases of suicide. My younger brother has Asperger's and when he was in high school bullying was a serious concern for me and my family.

Maybe the next type would be acts of bullying perpetrated against individuals who are perhaps different, but not in a disabling way. Homosexuals, trans-gender individuals, members of a different race or religious organization. Maybe we could call these second-class bullying acts. I'm certainly not claiming that it's second-class and less important, just that this class is probably better equipped, emotionally and socially, to deal with bullying. However, we should also note that bullying has DEFINITELY led to suicides in the gay community.

And the last type, could be third-class. These are the generic acts of bullying that are just generally prevalent in immature populations.

So! To conclude! I would actually rephrase the question thusly: "why are we concentrating on gay specific bullying instead of bullying against children with disabilities?"

[EDIT! I didn't mean it that way! Seriously. Sorry. Just poor choice of words.]

 

[Gokul43201]

So! To conclude! I would actually rephrase the question thusly: "why are we concentrating on gay specific bullying instead of bullying against children with disabilities?"

Assuming this is true, could one of the reasons be that society, in general, has much more sympathy for (and therefore much lower tolerance for violence against) people with disabilities than it does for gays? Are there any significantly influential groups, for instance, that promote the denigration of disabled people?

 

[Upisoft]

And the last type, could be third-class. These are the generic acts of bullying that are just generally prevalent in immature populations.

I don't think there is a 3rd class. Generally speaking bullying will be based on the difference between two parties. And for sure, you will be in the other party which is a group by itself.

The severity of bullying is a personal experience. You cannot label it with 'gay bullying experience' or 'disabled person bullying experience' and think you know everything.

 

[Jack21222]

So! To conclude! I would actually rephrase the question thusly: "why are we concentrating on gay specific bullying instead of bullying against children with disabilities?"

I have NEVER seen anybody bullied because of a disability. It just doesn't happen as often. Furthermore, the Trevor Project is an LGBT organization, it would be weird for them to focus on bullying against disabled kids.

I'm still operating under the assumption that the Trevor Project "It Gets Better" campaign is what the OP was referring to. That's the only recent focus on LGBT bullying I've seen or heard of.

 

[JaredJames]

I have NEVER seen anybody bullied because of a disability. It just doesn't happen as often. Furthermore, the Trevor Project is an LGBT organization, it would be weird for them to focus on bullying against disabled kids.

I'm still operating under the assumption that the Trevor Project "It Gets Better" campaign is what the OP was referring to. That's the only recent focus on LGBT bullying I've seen or heard of.

Whether it is or isn't the focus of the OP, it still doesn't back up the claim that gay bullying is getting more attention and other forms of bullying are being ignored. Something we are still yet to see proof of.

If it is, using this one project to justify the claim made regarding ignorance of other bullying types would be like me saying that on the basis of one charity raising money for breast cancer, all other cancers are being ignored. It simply isn't true.

 

[FlexGunship]

I have NEVER seen anybody bullied because of a disability. It just doesn't happen as often. Furthermore, the Trevor Project is an LGBT organization, it would be weird for them to focus on bullying against disabled kids.

Personal experience may not count as good evidence, but if you had grown up with a brother or sister with Asperger's or some other form of autism, then I'm sure you would have plenty of experience.

I'll never forget the image of my high-school-age brother sobbing into my father's arms crying that he would do anything to be normal and have one friend. And the later admission that sometimes he wished he were dead (much scarier coming from a child with Asperger's since lying (for the sake of drama) is essentially impossible for them). Or how about when he went into apply for a job at a supermarket and the hiring manager said: "We can't afford to hire people like you."

Granted, just my personal experience, but my brother's a pretty great guy, I have a hard time imagining anyone else with similar disabilities has it much easier. At least when I was bullied, I was dumb enough to stand up for myself, get in fights, and settle things. My brother doesn't have it in him to hurt anyone.

 

[JaredJames]

I agree with flex, people are bullied because of disability quite a lot.

If you spend any time with a disabled person, you'll realize how common it can be.

 

[Jack21222]

I agree with flex, people are bullied because of disability quite a lot.

If you spend any time with a disabled person, you'll realize how common it can be.

My sister's a C5 quadriplegic, though that only happened when she was 23, and practically everybody goes out of their way to be extra-nice to her. It's probably different for disabled kids rather than adults.

In high school, we had a group of deaf kids coming up with us. Not only did nobody pick on them (that I saw, anyway), people went out of their way to be nice to them. Perhaps it's different for mentally disabled kids too, rather than physically.

 

[Newai]

I don't have an axe to grind - I'm making an observation there are similarities to the way people in these groups are bullied. Obviously, the torment increases when someone is labeled as a member of the group.

It's also my observation (I have 4 kids) that people (especially kids) can be quite mean. Once someone is labeled as fat, short, ugly, dumb, smelly, slow, skinny, tall, clean, smart, neat, sloppy, (basically anything) then they are fair game for the bully process. Sometimes, it is with nervous laughter that some of the "bullies" participate - they're just glad it's not them being chastied.

Unfortunately, I think it's basic human behavior to single out someone and attack them as a group? Sometimes people who have been subject to such attacks are eager to join the group against other people (possibly for another reason).

(bold mine)

Especially kids. I hear that a lot. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Evo]

(bold mine)

Especially kids. I hear that a lot. It doesn't make any sense.

Agreed. My kids were raised to never say mean things to other children, and my mother taught me not to. And it wasn't limited to not saying it, they were taught that people that were handicapped, or were a minority, were the same as anyone else. Children also learn by example, they never heard me making derogatory remarks about people that were different.

Although I taught them to avoid stupid, aggressive, or reckless/immature people (my exceptions to the "all people are equal rule") they still were taught to avoid, not taunt.

 

[Newai]

Evo, can I ask for clarification? I reread my post and I think it could be equivocal. I meant to say that a lot of people point at kids for being especially mean, when actually I don't believe that can be quantified.

 

[Jack21222]

Evo, can I ask for clarification? I reread my post and I think it could be equivocal. I meant to say that a lot of people point at kids for being especially mean, when actually I don't believe that can be quantified.

I've never had an adult spit on me or put gum in my hair. In middle school, kids did. Just personal anecdotes, though...

 

[Newai]

I've never had an adult spit on me or put gum in my hair. In middle school, kids did. Just personal anecdotes, though...

My experiences in school with bullies put me in the hospital a number of times. Yet, I've had it much worse with some adults on the street who've tried to kill me.

Personal anecdotes do not quantify.

 

[Char. Limit]

My experiences in school with bullies put me in the hospital a number of times. Yet, I've had it much worse with some adults on the street who've tried to kill me.

Personal anecdotes do not quantify.

Technically they do: 1 personal anecdote, 2 personal anecdotes, 3 personal anecdotes...

 

[lisab]

Technically they do: 1 personal anecdote, 2 personal anecdotes, 3 personal anecdotes...

by golly, you're right...!

 

[Newai]

Technically they do: 1 personal anecdote, 2 personal anecdotes, 3 personal anecdotes...

Each coming down to personal opinion of how their experiences differ by weight of seriousness. Does a poll asking for the number of people who have been hurt by adults versus hurt by kids quantify which group is "meaner" or worse?

I think everyone knows what I meant. Maybe this is better: Personal anecdotes do not quantify which group is worse.

 

[Char. Limit]

Each coming down to personal opinion of how their experiences differ by weight of seriousness. Does a poll asking for the number of people who have been hurt by adults versus hurt by kids quantify which group is "meaner" or worse?

I think everyone knows what I meant. Maybe this is better: Personal anecdotes do not quantify which group is worse.

Personally, and I know you don't recognize this as valid, I've experienced like up to college kids, and I would say that so far, middle-schoolers were the worst.

 

[JaredJames]

Children are definitely the worst when it comes to bullying. They can be truly brutal.

Most adults, at worst will stare. Children have no problem with pointing out, whether verbally or by physically indicating to someone, something they notice to be 'wrong' with the person.

Wales doesn't have many coloured people, even less 15 years ago. When my sister was out with my family when she was a little girl she saw her first black person. She pointed and shouted "dad, what's that?".
Now we were both brought up never to attack people or be nasty to others (basically the way Evo described), but the sight was so different to her that she simply didn't understand it and had to say something.
Although that in itself isn't bullying, it tells me that there is a difference between a child seeing something they don't know/like/understand, and an adult. A child won't hold back and will ask about it, highlight the issue, poke fun at it. Although some adults can be bad, the majority would never do that.

 

[Newai]

Personally, and I know you don't recognize this as valid, I've experienced like up to college kids, and I would say that so far, middle-schoolers were the worst.

I suppose then this means that those mean kids will more likely grow up into good, kind adults. And that good, kind adults are more likely to have been mean kids.

Yeah.

 

[JaredJames]

I suppose then this means that those mean kids will more likely grow up into good, kind adults. And that good, kind adults are more likely to have been mean kids.

Yeah.

How do you figure that?

 

[Newai]

How do you figure that?

"Children are definitely the worst when it comes to bullying. They can be truly brutal."

Well, you tell me. Do these brutal bullies usually become kind, decent adults?

 

[Jack21222]

My experiences in school with bullies put me in the hospital a number of times. Yet, I've had it much worse with some adults on the street who've tried to kill me.

Personal anecdotes do not quantify.

Did those adults who tried to kill you do it because they found it funny? Or did they want something from you (i.e. robbery)? Were they out for revenge? Were you a witness to a crime?

I'd say adults rarely harm others just because it's fun. They're more likely to do it for personal gain. Kids, on the other hand, will hurt others for laughs.

 

[JaredJames]

"Children are definitely the worst when it comes to bullying. They can be truly brutal."

Well, you tell me. Do these brutal bullies usually become kind, decent adults?

You said it, so there must be a reason you believe it.

From my experience, no they don't. I didn't like them in school because of how they were and I don't like them now, because they're still like it.

However, most children will pick on another child at some point, even if it's something minor. Children who aren't normally nasty can still be rather brutal when it comes to having a go at someone. They take things too far and don't know when to stop. These kids don't make a habit of bullying, it's something of a one off.
So I'd have to say it's only people who are continuously bullying others that turn out badly as adults in my experience.

 

[Newai]

Did those adults who tried to kill you do it because they found it funny? Or did they want something from you (i.e. robbery)? Were they out for revenge? Were you a witness to a crime?

I'd say adults rarely harm others just because it's fun. They're more likely to do it for personal gain. Kids, on the other hand, will hurt others for laughs.

So it's the intent, not the actual act itself, that determines its seriousness, its effect on a victim? And for laughs is not for personal gain?

 

[JaredJames]

So it's the intent, not the actual act itself, that determines its seriousness, its effect on a victim? And for laughs is not for personal gain?

There is a difference between bullying and mugging.

Bullying:

Bullying is an act of repeated aggressive behavior in order to intentionally hurt another person, physically or mentally. Bullying is characterized by an individual behaving in a certain way to gain power over another person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying#Definition

An adult attacking another in a one off act is not bullying that person. Mugging someone is a one off act of violence aimed at robbing that person of some personal possession or money.

 

[Newai]

You said it, so there must be a reason you believe it.

Which part is 'what I said'?

 

[JaredJames]

I suppose then this means that those mean kids will more likely grow up into good, kind adults. And that good, kind adults are more likely to have been mean kids.

Yeah.

That bit. You said bullies are more likely to be kind adults. I responded to this, at which point you asked me to clarify whether or not I believed it to be the case.

 

[Newai]

There is a difference between bullying and mugging.

Bullying:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying#Definition

An adult attacking another in a one off act is not bullying that person.

Back up here. We can separate bullies from muggers all you want. The disagreement I have is this claim that children are worse than adults.

 

[Newai]

That bit. You said bullies are more likely to be kind adults. I responded to this, at which point you asked me to clarify whether or not I believed it to be the case.

No. That was an interpretation of Char. Limit's comment at https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2994593#post2994593

Did you think I was replying to you?

 

[JaredJames]

Back up here. We can separate bullies from muggers all you want. The disagreement I have is this claim that children are worse than adults.

Why do you disagree?

Everything I have seen agrees with children being worse. As I said previously, children don't know when to stop, they don't know what 'going too far' is. They have no problems with pointing out problems people have.

How often do you see adults in the news who are being bullied in comparison to children in the news for being bullied?

 

[JaredJames]

No. That was an interpretation of Char. Limit's comment at https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2994593#post2994593

All Char Limit said was that he found middle school, younger kids to be worse (nastier) when it comes to bullying over college kids. Nothing to interpret.

What he said indicated in no way how he saw bullies becoming adults.

 

[Newai]

Why do you disagree?

Everything I have seen agrees with children being worse. As I said previously, children don't know when to stop, they don't know what 'going too far' is. They have no problems with pointing out problems people have.

How often do you see adults in the news who are being bullied in comparison to children in the news for being bullied?

Again... Again... Again...

I know this thread is about bullying, and you seem to be stuck on that. My disagreement goes all the way back to my first post in this thread about children being worse than adults. Without any way of justifying that beyond personal anecdotes, it's simply unsubstantiated, and potentially thus against forum rules.

All Char Limit said was that he found middle school, younger kids to be worse (nastier) when it comes to bullying over college kids. Nothing to interpret.

What he said indicated in no way how he saw bullies becoming adults.

*blinks*

 

[Jack21222]

Again... Again... Again...

I know this thread is about bullying, and you seem to be stuck on that. My disagreement goes all the way back to my first post in this thread about children being worse than adults. Without any way of justifying that beyond personal anecdotes, it's simply unsubstantiated, and potentially thus against forum rules.



*blinks*

Not worse! Meaner. It's meaner to torture somebody for fun than it is to attack them for money.

 

[Newai]

Not worse! Meaner. It's meaner to torture somebody for fun than it is to attack them for money.

I don't understand the difference.

 

[Char. Limit]

No. That was an interpretation of Char. Limit's comment at https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2994593#post2994593

Did you think I was replying to you?

Odd, since I didn't mention adults at all, unless you consider college kids to be "adult".

 

[FlexGunship]

I don't understand the difference.

Really?

One is a sadistic behavior; the torment of another individual for the pleasure of seeing them in pain. You could do this to a hamster.

The other is an act of violence perpetrated for immediate personal gain. Something you couldn't do to a hamster.

That's a surprisingly stark difference (well, even without the hamster thing). Sociopathic behavior is an end in its own right. Whereas robbery, violence is incidental to the actual theft.

 

[JaredJames]

Really?

One is a sadistic behavior; the torment of another individual for the pleasure of seeing them in pain. You could do this to a hamster.

The other is an act of violence perpetrated for immediate personal gain. Something you couldn't do to a hamster.

That's a surprisingly stark difference (well, even without the hamster thing). Sociopathic behavior is an end in its own right. Whereas robbery, violence is incidental to the actual theft.

I think he mean't between "worse" and "meaner".

 

[Al68]

The other is an act of violence perpetrated for immediate personal gain. Something you couldn't do to a hamster.

I have to disagree with that. Hamsters are tasty.

 

[JaredJames]

I have to disagree with that. Hamsters are tasty.

A statement I never want to hear the explanation for...

 

[Char. Limit]

A statement I never want to hear the explanation for...

Hamsters taste good. Therefore, they are tasty.

 

[Newai]

Odd, since I didn't mention adults at all, unless you consider college kids to be "adult".

You didn't have to given that your comment was a reply to mine:

Each coming down to personal opinion of how their experiences differ by weight of seriousness. Does a poll asking for the number of people who have been hurt by adults versus hurt by kids quantify which group is "meaner" or worse?

I think everyone knows what I meant. Maybe this is better: Personal anecdotes do not quantify which group is worse.

 

[Char. Limit]

You didn't have to given that your comment was a reply to mine:

I responded to the last part, not the first.