Unexploded Ordnance: US Responsibility for Clearing Landmines

[Cyrus]

I was just watching Anthony Bourdain, no reservations in Loas. They were showing landmines being exploded by the army that were left behind by the US forces that kill and maimed people every year. Most of these people are not old enough to have been in the war at the time.

As Americans, I think we are responsible for going to, and cleaning up every single (or as many as we can find) landmines we littered around the world.

Why are we not taking any initiative and setting a worldwide standard of excellence for other countries to follow suit?

It would be hypocritical to complain about WMDs to the world, meanwhile we *are* responsible for innocent people being killed due to our own past wars.

 

[Gokul43201]

[somewhat off-topic diversion]

Cyrus, you should watch Turtles can Fly, if you haven't already.

Turtles Can Fly is a 2004 film written and directed by the Kurdish filmmaker from Iran Bahman Ghobadi, with notable theme music composed by Hossein Alizadeh. It was the first film to be made in Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

Plot

The film is set in a Kurdish refugee camp on the Iraqi-Turkish border on the eve of the US invasion of Iraq. Thirteen-year-old Satellite (Soran Ebrahim) is known for his installation of dishes and antennae for local villages who are looking for news of Saddam Hussein and for his limited knowledge of English. He is the dynamic, but manipulative leader of the children, organizing the dangerous but necessary sweeping and clearing of the minefields.

 

[mgb_phys]

Generally the losing side get to clear up the mines.

German veterans are currently trying to sue the French government for using POWs to clear mines fields after WWII, predictably the casualty rate was rather high.

 

[Cyrus]

Generally the losing side get to clear up the mines.

German veterans are currently trying to sue the French government for using POWs to clear mines fields after WWII, predictably the casualty rate was rather high.

That may be the case. But the person who put them there are responsible for clearing them.

Anyone who uses landmines does so by choice. Frankly, they should be internationally banned as a weapon. They probably do more harm to innocent people than against actual troops.

In my mind, they are wmds. When you can't even walk down the road for fear of being blown up, something is wrong.

 

[mgb_phys]

It's not like they are doing nothing - the republicans did, at great personal risk, drink French wine to raise $50K to clear landmines in Cambodia.
http://rncnyc2004.blogspot.com/2005/05/clearing-landmines-and-aiding-disabled.html

 

[Astronuc]

That may be the case. But the person who put them there are responsible for clearing them.

Anyone who uses landmines does so by choice. Frankly, they should be internationally banned as a weapon. They probably do more harm to innocent people than against actual troops.

In my mind, they are wmds. When you can't even walk down the road for fear of being blown up, something is wrong.

Absolutely! And one can add cluster bomblets and DU to the list of stuff that must be cleaned up to make the environment safe for human habitation.

International Campaign to Ban Landmines
http://www.icbl.org/
Help Ban Cluster Bombs Now! Sign the People's Treaty

The Cluster Munitions Convention's signing ceremony will take place in Oslo, Norway, from 2-3 December 2008. That is only two months to ensure that countries – your country – will be ready to sign the treaty! To keep pressure on governments, sign the People's Treaty now.

Countries not signing the treaty, ostensibly because they plan to use landmines. Small countries would probably use them defensively, whereas the large countries would more likely use them as part of aggressive military campaign.
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Bahrain
Burma
China
Cuba
Egypt
Finland
Georgia
India
Iran
Israel
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kyrgyzstan
Lao PDR
Lebanon
Libya
Marshall Islands
Micronesia
Mongolia
Morocco
Nepal
Oman
Pakistan
Poland
Russian Federation
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
Somalia
Sri Lanka
Syria
Tonga
Tuvalu
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam

 

[Cyrus]

Exactly what purpose does the US have for using landmines?

We use drones and electronic devices to monitor boarder areas for extended periods of time. There really is no need to be using landmines anymore.

If someone is crossing, you want to capture them an interrogate them. They do you no good blown to a million pieces.

 

[turbo]

Cluster munitions are designed to create as many wounded civilian and military personnel as possible, to tie up the resources of the enemy. They are the gift that keeps on giving, long after any particular conflict is over, and they are an abomination.

The production and use of such munitions should be outlawed world-wide, and the leaders of countries using them should be pursued as war criminals.

 

[Astronuc]

Exactly what purpose does the US have for using landmines?

To kill people. The US has reserved the right to use landmines, and cluster bombs, and DU. And not necessarily clean up afterward.

The Bush administration has violated the Geneva convention in Iraq and probably in Afghanistan. The secret rendition program is illegal, but the only way to enforce international law is to have equal power.

 

[mgb_phys]

Exactly what purpose does the US have for using landmines?

Charitable view - if you start letting the politicians set rules for the army soon they will ban torture, imprisonment, nukes etc and then were will you be.

Cynical view - the nice thing about cluster munitions, mines and DU is that it doesn't just get rid of your current enemies. It makes sure the next generation are no trouble either.

 

[Cyrus]

So I'm watching the show, and here is this poor pesant farmer in Loas with one arm and one leg because of a landmine made in the USA.

Anthony asked the man if he was mad at the US for being blown up and he said 'yes'. If I could get blown up walking around my own house thanks to a vietnamese landmine, I wouldn't care much for the vietnamese either.

I'm not sure how many landmines we have around the world. I would guess a lot in Vietnam, Loas. Are we putting any down in Iraq?

I know we are still funding landmine development because I saw on tv a 'smart' landmine that detects what is approaching it: vehicle, people, etc and flings a charge at the approaching target depending on what type of target it is. It's supposed to have GPS so you can remove it after the conflict.

If there was accountability for landmines, that would be a different story. If a country were to place x number of landmines and were required to keep track of how many exploded and how many were left, and then remove the remainder after the war. It wouldn't be as much of an issue. But most countries would lie and say they took them all away when in fact they did not.

 

[Cyrus]

Charitable view - if you start letting the politicians set rules for the army soon they will ban torture, imprisonment, nukes etc and then were will you be.

Cynical view - the nice thing about cluster munitions, mines and DU is that it doesn't just get rid of your current enemies. It makes sure the next generation are no trouble either.

Igonrant view: above. No offense, both viewpoints you presented are pretty stupid and thoughtless.

I know that they are probably not what you personally are saying, you're just making a statement. But face it, it's dumb.

I don't think anyone would explain to a child why they have one arm or leg using the reasoning you provided.

 

[Hippo]

There needs to be more funding in Top Universities in developing Robotics Technology to detect and kill landmines that can be cheap and affordable for Third world nations.

Its not like we don't have the technology available and the brain power to develop them, its the lack of will to do so.

Gryphon Landmine Detector built from Tokyo Institute of Technology:

 

[Evo]

They're not landmines Cyrus, they are unexploded ordnance (bombs) that were dropped, but didn't explode. I've watched that episode of Anthony Bourdain a few times.

http://www.ausaid.gov.au/media/release.cfm?BC=Media&ID=1644_5777_6600_3820_6367

This is the official website. http://www.uxolao.org/

 

[mgb_phys]

Igonrant view: above. No offense, both viewpoints you presented are pretty stupid and thoughtless.

I'm sure both viewpoints are top of the powerpoint presentation for their respective generals.

According to the UN in 2006 a certain country in the middle east dropped 350,000 cluster bombs on civilian areas of lebanon in the last 48-72hours of the conflict, while peace negotiations were being finalised. The UN estimates that 30% didn't explode - it's report finds it hard to believe that this wan't a deliberate part of their design.
The land mine action program claim that the cost of clearing each hectare of farmland is around 2x annual income, so even if the plan wasn't to kill people it has succeded in causing a famine.

I suspect that any US military objections to a treaty are more about a slippery slope to more stringent civilian oversight than their tactical need for minefields.
General Schwarzkopf called for the banning of landmines after gulf war I - based on how easily Iraqi mines had been cleared by US tanks he didn't think they had any military value. This might have been biased by his personal experiences in Vietnam.

 

[Cyrus]

Here is the episode in question:

 

[Evo]

Here is the episode in question:

See my post above for the correction to your OP.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1903969&postcount=14

 

[wildman]

The issue of land mines is complex. Most of the land mines used by the US are smart and disarm themselves after a period of time.

See the following from the US Army War College:

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/PARAMETERS/00spring/troxell.htm

 

[russ_watters]

Exactly what purpose does the US have for using landmines?

We use drones and electronic devices to monitor boarder areas for extended periods of time. There really is no need to be using landmines anymore.

There are a number of different types of land mines, some anti-personnel, anti-vehicle, and anti-armor, anti-aircraft, etc. They are used (not as much anymore, but still used) because they are highly effective for certain tasks.

If someone is crossing, you want to capture them an interrogate them. They do you no good blown to a million pieces.

Not true. Unless the person approaching your position is buck naked, it is very difficult, if not impossible to gage their threat level. Knowing this, insurgents in Iraq would probe American defenses by sending civilians toward them, knowing in many cases they had to be shot rather than risk capturing someone with 20lb of C4 taped to their chest.

 

[Evo]

They aren't landmines, they're unexploded bombs, Cyrus was confused.

I give up. Nobody reads my posts.

 

[mgb_phys]

They aren't landmines, they're unexploded bombs,

I suppose it depends wether you believe that 30% of a cluster sub-munitions accidentally fail to detonate due to poor quality control. Or you think it is a deliberate feature to cause maximum damage to the bomb disposal teams, military engineers or the civil population.

 

[russ_watters]

Cluster munitions are designed to create as many wounded civilian and military personnel as possible, to tie up the resources of the enemy.

While there are countries and entities that intentionally, as a matter of policy, target civilians with such munitions, the US is not one of them.

 

[russ_watters]

They aren't landmines, they're unexploded bombs, Cyrus was confused.

I give up. Nobody reads my posts.

I respond to posts in order...

Anway, I don't see this as a major quibble: a good fraction of the unexploded ordinance is mines or cluster bombs (which often have a similar purpose/capabilities). Cyrus may be focusing on a piece of a larger issue, but it is the most important piece due to the nature of the ordinance.

 

[russ_watters]

I suppose it depends wether you believe that 30% of a cluster sub-munitions accidentally fail to detonate due to poor quality control. Or you think it is a deliberate feature to cause maximum damage to the bomb disposal teams, military engineers or the civil population.

Again, there are many types, and many do behave like mines. That does not mean they are intended to cause harm to civilians. Military engineers, sure. One of many examples:

Anti-runway
Anti-runway submunitions such as the British JP233 are designed to penetrate concrete before detonating, allowing them to shatter and crater runway surfaces. In the case of the JP233, the cratering effect is achieved through the use of a two-stage warhead that combines a shaped charge and conventional explosive. The shaped charge creates a small crater inside which the conventional explosive detonates to enlarge it. Anti-runway submunitions are usually used along with anti-personnel submunitions equipped with delay or booby-trap fuses that act as anti-personnel mines to make repair more difficult.

and

Mine-laying
When submunition-based weapons are used to disperse mines, their submunitions do not detonate immediately, but behave like conventional land mines that detonate later. The submunitions usually include a combination of anti-personnel and anti-tank mines. Since such mines usually lie on exposed surfaces, the anti-personnel forms, such as the US Area Denial Artillery Munition normally deploy tripwires automatically after landing to make clearing the minefield more difficult. In order to avoid rendering large portions of the battlefield permanently impassable, and to minimize the amount of mine-clearing needed after a conflict, scatterable mines used by the United States are designed to self-destruct after a period of time from 4-48 hours. The internationally agreed definition of cluster munitions being negotiated in the Oslo Process may not include this type of weapon, since landmines are already covered in other specific international instruments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_bomb#Anti-runway

 

[russ_watters]

Here is a cluster bomb that is frighteningly effective at destroying tanks. This is one that the US should not be willing to give up:

The CBU-97 consists of an SUU-66/B tactical munition dispenser that contains 10 BLU-108 submunitions. Each submunition contains four hockey-puck-shaped sensor-fused projectiles called Skeets. These detect targets, such as tanks, armored personnel carriers, trucks and other support vehicles, and fire an explosively formed penetrator...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensor-fused_weapon

One thing about such weapons, though (and anti-tank cluster bombs and mines in general) is that they are typically pretty difficult for civilians to set off accidentally. You can't set one off by stepping on it or picking it up, for example (unlike anti-personnel mines).

 

[Evo]

I respond to posts in order...

Anway, I don't see this as a major quibble: a good fraction of the unexploded ordinance is mines or cluster bombs (which often have a similar purpose/capabilities). Cyrus may be focusing on a piece of a larger issue, but it is the most important piece due to the nature of the ordinance.

The thread isn't about landmines, the thread is about the devastating effects on Laotians as a result of the intense bombing during the Vietnam war and how the indescriminate and incredibly heavy bombing has made living a normal life there virtually impossible.

People aren't reading or are failing to understand the post and aren't viewing the video and are going off on a tangent about planting landmines, no one so far has addressed the issue of the Laotians that Cyrus created this thread about.

I'm not pointing the finger at you, I am just amazed that not one single poster has addressed the problem in Laos. I guess it was because i had actually seen the episode Cyrus was posting about and knew what it was really about, so I had knowledge no one else had. I guess if I didn't know I would have gone off about landmines too.

 

[wildman]

One of the most serious problems with cluster bombs was caused by a desire to limit unintentional injuries. Cluster bombs are painted bright colors to make clean up after a battle easier. There is often a lot of debris lying around in a former battle ground and having the cluster bombs painted a bright color makes finding and destroying them easier. Unfortunately, the bright colors also makes the cluster bombs attractive to children. This has led to many deaths.

This is a good lesson to engineers. Think about the unintentional side effects of your designs. A feature put in for good wholesome reasons may cause serious side effects.

 

[russ_watters]

The thread isn't about landmines, the thread is about the devastating effects on Laotians as a result of the intense bombing during the Vietnam war and how the indescriminate and incredibly heavy bombing has made living a normal life there virtually impossible.

People aren't reading or are failing to understand the post and aren't viewing the video and are going off on a tangent about planting landmines, no one so far has addressed the issue of the Laotians that Cyrus created this thread about.

I'm not pointing the finger at you, I am just amazed that not one single poster has addressed the problem in Laos. I guess it was because i had actually seen the episode Cyrus was posting about and knew what it was really about, so I had knowledge no one else had. I guess if I didn't know I would have gone off about landmines too.

Now I'm just confused. I watched (most of) the clip and read the link you provided. Yes, it's about unexploded ordinance in Laos. Cluster bombs and mines are mentioned specifically as two of the major components of that. Are you objecting to discussion of banning them as being a tangent? Perhaps people didn't mention Laos in every post, but Laos serves as the example for most peoples' arguments about banning them.

 

[Art]

While there are countries and entities that intentionally, as a matter of policy, target civilians with such munitions, the US is not one of them.

This seems to me to be splitting hairs when the US continues to sell these munitions to countries who do misuse them. To my mind this makes the US gov't equally culpable.

 

[russ_watters]

This seems to me to be splitting hairs when the US continues to sell these munitions to countries who do misuse them. To my mind this makes the US gov't equally culpable.

For example...?

 

[Evo]

Now I'm just confused. I watched (most of) the clip and read the link you provided. Yes, it's about unexploded ordinance in Laos. Cluster bombs and mines are mentioned specifically as two of the major components of that. Are you objecting to discussion of banning them as being a tangent? Perhaps people didn't mention Laos in every post, but Laos serves as the example for most peoples' arguments about banning them.

It's the cluster bombs. You will never see landmines covering such a large area and so dense. Banning landmines isn't going to help in a case like this were it is the unexploded bombs that are the problem.

 

[Art]

For example...?

Israel springs to mind instantly.

Surprised you didn't think of them yourself given all the press they've had following the UN condemnation of Israel's use of them in Lebanon in 2006 when the US made cluster munitions, dropped in their hundreds of thousands in the last hours of the conflict, had a failure (sic) rate of between 30-40%

UN denounces Israel cluster bombs
The UN's humanitarian chief has accused Israel of "completely immoral" use of cluster bombs in Lebanon.

UN clearance experts had so far found 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets at 359 separate sites, Jan Egeland said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5299938.stm

 

[mgb_phys]

In afghanistan the color of UN aid parcels has been changed because they looked identical to cluster bomblets.
This isn't a new problem - in WWII the Germans were accused of dropping incenduries that were painted pale blue allegedly to encourage children to pick them up and play with them, the 'real' reason was that the luftwaffe wanted to distinguish them from army ordanance that was painted green.

 

[wildman]

What is amazing is the Frence are still cleaning up from WW I:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2992249,00.html

 

[WarPhalange]

They're actually making a movie about people who clear fields of landmines for a living.