Drug Testing in Schools and Organizations: Addressing Adderall Abuse

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The discussion centers around the idea of drug testing in schools to combat Adderall abuse, with participants largely opposing the notion. Many argue that drug testing infringes on personal privacy and is impractical for large student populations. While some acknowledge that stimulants like Adderall can enhance concentration, they emphasize that true learning requires understanding the material, not just test performance. Concerns are raised about the competitive nature of education and whether using such drugs constitutes cheating. Ultimately, the consensus leans towards the belief that drug testing is unnecessary and could lead to negative implications for students' privacy and well-being.
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Should schools and organizations start drug testing students to monitor abuse of drugs like adderall, which is widely used recreationally by lots of kids to boost test scores?
 
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No..
 
No...
 
no. schools, organizations, and people in general should learn to mind their own bleeping business.
 
So there be no PDEs here?:confused:
 
I have no idea what a "PDE" is (when I went to school it was Partial Differential Equation) but I say NO to having schools stick there noses in student's business (unless they're carrying guns to class, in which case I'll happily make an exception)
 
I think, not. Privacy in ones life is already minimal.
 
They check athletes for drugs that artificially enhance their performance, so I would not be against it in schools.

I just don't think it's feasible to do it among such a large population.

I dislike cheaters.
 
No, it's not a competition, if they want to take something to boost their scores it's their own problem.
 
  • #10
Are students that actually make an effort doing this? I thought it was some silly thing for people to take and cram for a test the night before.
 
  • #11
I don't think it would be hard to check for psycho-stimulants and have it cheap at the same time. I wonder if the contraction speed of the iris is affected by such stimulants.
 
  • #12
Cuauhtemoc said:
No, it's not a competition, if they want to take something to boost their scores it's their own problem.

exactly. this is not some game. most people are coming to learn what will essentially be their trade, not some trinket to hang on the mantle. in fact, one of the best, and most intelligent teachers i ever had did not view it as a competition either. his attitude was, if everyone in his course does "A" work, then everyone gets an "A".

and, it's not just about boosting scores. i drink coffee every day. and if I'm taking a course, especially so. it helps me pay attention and retain information. it's about actually learning the material. it's not about winning the National Boggle Championship.
 
  • #13
To most of us, school is not competitive. Though I tend to do better if there is some sort of competition among friends (this was discussed in another thread). I've heard med students can be pretty cut throat though!

In any event, I don't think taking a drug used for AD(H)D should be considered cheating. You still have to know the material, yes?
 
  • #14
Proton Soup said:
exactly. this is not some game. most people are coming to learn what will essentially be their trade, not some trinket to hang on the mantle. in fact, one of the best, and most intelligent teachers i ever had did not view it as a competition either. his attitude was, if everyone in his course does "A" work, then everyone gets an "A".

and, it's not just about boosting scores. i drink coffee every day. and if I'm taking a course, especially so. it helps me pay attention and retain information. it's about actually learning the material. it's not about winning the National Boggle Championship.
Oh, what if these were people who would become doctors one day that might operate on you? Would you put your trust in a person who took adderall to pass his or her entrance exam, and then later forget the information they learned in a week?
 
  • #15
Of course it's a competition, you're competing to get into college, and it's cheating, if you couldn't score as well without the drug.

People that use it are dishonest. They use the drug to appear smarter than they really are. Coffee is a mild stimulant that doesn't even affect many people (I am one of those people).
 
  • #16
Evo said:
Of course it's a competition, you're competing to get into college, and it's cheating, if you couldn't score as well without the drug.

People that use it are dishonest. They use the drug to appear smarter than they really are. Coffee is a mild stimulant that doesn't even affect many people (I am one of those people).

I'm quite ignorant on the issue, but how does the drug let people appear smarter?? I thought that the only effect involved was that people could concentrate better and for longer periods of times. A bit like coffee of red bull.

I don't think a drug could actually make people smarter. Could it??
 
  • #17
I'm sure if it ever becomes an issue that tarnishes the reputation of universities or threatens the public welfare people will insist on mandatory testing. The same with mandatory testing of the public for STDs or whatever. If it becomes an issue then I'm sure people will address it, but until then its just a waste of money and higher education is expensive enough.
 
  • #18
micromass said:
I'm quite ignorant on the issue, but how does the drug let people appear smarter?? I thought that the only effect involved was that people could concentrate better and for longer periods of times. A bit like coffee of red bull.

I don't think a drug could actually make people smarter. Could it??

It cannot, you are just able to concentrate and consequently learn better. You don't get sleepy also.
So yes, I would operate with a doctor that made an effort to learn more.

It's not some magic pill that slackers take to be able to pass a test without knowing the content.
 
  • #19
Willowz said:
Oh, what if these were people who would become doctors one day that might operate on you? Would you put your trust in a person who took adderall to pass his or her entrance exam, and then later forget the information they learned in a week?

i'm not assuming they're learning all their material in a week.
 
  • #20
Willowz said:
Oh, what if these were people who would become doctors one day that might operate on you? Would you put your trust in a person who took adderall to pass his or her entrance exam, and then later forget the information they learned in a week?

If it's an entrance exam, then it's not going to matter. If it's the USMLE, that's different. You need to know why and how everything is affecting the people. It's not as simple as memorizing a word and its definition. So I would imagine that is a safe bet, letting them operate on you.
 
  • #21
It makes them appear smarter on tests (it does not make them smarter) because of the following

Performance Effects: Doses of 10-30 mg methamphetamine have shown to improve reaction time, relief fatigue, improve cognitive function testing, increase subjective feelings of alertness, increase time estimation,

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/methamphetamine.htm

But like I said, it's not feasible to test for it.
 
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  • #22
Fair enough, but I don't think this is the main reason people take it. In my opinion is to be able to study more before the test.
 
  • #23
Cuauhtemoc said:
Fair enough, but I don't think this is the main reason people take it. In my opinion is to be able to study more before the test.
I'm not aware that it helps to retain knowledge.
 
  • #24
Cuauhtemoc said:
Fair enough, but I don't think this is the main reason people take it. In my opinion is to be able to study more before the test.

Same. I also get less frustrated with a problem. With it, it's more like, "Oh, I spent all this time and got it wrong. Hmm. I wonder what I did wrong. I'll retrace my steps and recalculate"

Without it, "Gaaaah!" and it's hard to even think straight about why it's wrong. I can't even look at the problem anymore in depth. I stare at it as a whole, like one giant convoluted mess.

I've only gotten it from friends. I'd like to have a prescription but I'd also like to be able to study like that without relying on medication more.
 
  • #25
Evo said:
I'm not aware that it helps to retain knowledge.

Perhaps he/she meant time. As in being able to concentrate for a longer period. At least that's what I assumed.
 
  • #26
Amazing (pathetic) that we seem to be breeding a culture of students using methamphetamines because they can't do it on their own.

What's worse is that people are ok with getting doped up on meth.

So when do the drugs stop? You get hired and you can't keep up at work, so you do more meth, but your body is getting used to it, so you need more meth.
 
  • #27
Evo said:
Amazing (pathetic) that we seem to be breeding a culture of students using methamphetamines because they can't do it on their own.

What's worse is that people are ok with getting doped up on meth.

Agreed. I did not realize that those products contained meth. I guess that's what a competitive climate does to people :frown:
 
  • #28
Hmm. This is boring; the OP posed a question the community is unanimously responding "no" to. I'd rather like to hear something horrible and attention-grabbing, like all the horrible things that have happened to people who abuse these drugs! Where are the manically depressed people scrawling insanity like whoever owned my last used textbook? >:D (Although those turned out to be beatles lyrics... beatles + vector calculus + drug + depression = ...?)

Anyway, I think that it's a slippery slope one jumps on (and then slips on, then falls into, then probably slides through) as soon as they stick themselves in a situation that requires heavy use of a drug. It's my (likely skewed) opinion that someone like that is inefficient in most things, and a poor person to trust with any sort of responsibility in many situations.

No, I don't think like some others in this thread are thinking. To me, that person (over there, yes, you!) is not someone I would consider a dedicated, hard worker. Now, if they're like a person I will soon link to, then we are talking about something entirely different from stressed college students: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erdős

*after reading the last few comments, I wonder why drug stories are always attached to math. Why aren't there more people on [insert some amphetamine here] trying to memorize some esoteric philosopher's ideas?!*
 
  • #29
Evo said:
They check athletes for drugs that artificially enhance their performance, so I would not be against it in schools.

I just don't think it's feasible to do it among such a large population.

I dislike cheaters.

Cuauhtemoc said:
Fair enough, but I don't think this is the main reason people take it. In my opinion is to be able to study more before the test.

Evo said:
I'm not aware that it helps to retain knowledge.

I don't think this is artificially enhancing performance. It would be an interesting study to see how learning is affected while 'under the influence'. Is the ability to retain knowledge increased, decreased, or stays the same? If it stays the same, then it should not be considered cheating because clearly it just helps you with concentration while studying. If it decreases, that is cheating because after a short time your knowledge of the information will be gone. If it is actually increased, I'm sure they'll find a way to sneak it into every day food products!
 
  • #30
Mororvia said:
I don't think this is artificially enhancing performance. It would be an interesting study to see how learning is affected while 'under the influence'. Is the ability to retain knowledge increased, decreased, or stays the same? If it stays the same, then it should not be considered cheating because clearly it just helps you with concentration while studying. If it decreases, that is cheating because after a short time your knowledge of the information will be gone. If it is actually increased, I'm sure they'll find a way to sneak it into every day food products!
It's cheating when used during a test.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3528848&postcount=21
 
  • #31
it's not meth, it's amphetamine. learn to read. or at least take some adderall, first. ;)

edit: oh, i see, there is also Desoxyn, which is meth. but that is not one you hear much about, is it?

also, I've never taken either of these, even though i think it is none of my business. I've been using caffeine and pseudoephedrine since i was about 16. and i also have a niece that is currently undergoing evaluation for her hyperactivity, and we're not sure what kind of meds she may be expected to take. she is noticeably hyper, though, and probably something organic, since she used to have seizures.
 
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  • #32
Evo said:

I don't think most people would use it during a test. Most people take it when learning material. Such a drug help people to concentrate longer and so they can learn more material.

It remains cheating, however.
 
  • #33
micromass said:
I don't think most people would use it during a test. Most people take it when learning material. Such a drug help people to concentrate longer and so they can learn more material.

It remains cheating, however.
The OP is about taking it to boost test scores.
 
  • #34
Evo said:
The OP is about taking it to boost test scores.

Exactly. Being able to learn more the days before the exam will certainly boost your test scores more than if you didn't take the drug...
 
  • #35
Evo said:

you need to define what those things mean. what is this "cognitive functioning" you speak of? i can find studies that back up the use of B-12 to increase performance, but it's a processing speed increase, not intelligence or anything like that.
 
  • #36
Evo said:
The OP is about taking it to boost test scores.

what if the only benefit is to reduce fatigue, and one knows that reducing fatigue boosts scores compared to one who is testing while fatigued?
 
  • #37
Proton Soup said:
what if the only benefit is to reduce fatigue, and one knows that reducing fatigue boosts scores compared to one who is testing while fatigued?
That's not the only benefit. Did you read the link?

Oh you did read the link so you're just being intentionally obtuse.

Proton Soup said:
you need to define what those things mean. what is this "cognitive functioning" you speak of? i can find studies that back up the use of B-12 to increase performance, but it's a processing speed increase, not intelligence or anything like that.

Since I'm not the author of this paper, perhaps you should ask the experts that wrote it, eh?
 
  • #38
Evo said:
That's not the only benefit. Did you read the link?

Oh you did read the link so you're just being intentionally obtuse.



Since I'm not the author of this paper, perhaps you should ask the experts that wrote it, eh?

you're assuming all of my comments are with respect to your link, which is discussing two different drugs, apparently.

i would be happy to look up what it refers to, but it's not even a paper. it has references, but no footnotes... does it even have authors?
 
  • #39
Proton Soup said:
you're assuming all of my comments are with respect to your link, which is discussing two different drugs, apparently.

i would be happy to look up what it refers to, but it's not even a paper. it has references, but no footnotes... does it even have authors?
Gee, I guess one would have to scroll down to see the work it was taken from.

You seriously don't know how to read this? You can't find the authors?

You can't tell that it's about adderal?

Oh dear, dear, dear.
 
  • #40
Proton Soup said:
i'm not assuming they're learning all their material in a week.
Well that's pretty much what they do on Adderall. They get tunnel vision on some task and remember stuff for a week, then *poof* its gone.
 
  • #41
OK, let's sift through individual papers.

Logan BK. Methamphetamine - Effects on Human Performance and Behavior. Forens Sci Rev 2002;14(1/2):133-51.
http://www.biblioteca.cij.gob.mx/Archivos/Materiales_de_consulta/Drogas_de_Abuso/Metanfetaminas/Articulos/methamphetamine.pdf

C.Military Use and Effects on Counteracting Fatigue
As early as 1966, it was recognized that the perfor-
mance enhancement resulting from amphetamine use was
generally significant in restoring performance in fatigued
subjects, rather than producing performance above baseline
in normal subjects [65].

and it looks like most of the rest of it is about psychomotor performance. in fact, that seems to be the real focus of the fact sheet and its references: how these drugs affect things like driving. so some evidence that these drugs help students cheat is still lacking.
 
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  • #43
Proton Soup said:
OK, let's sift through individual papers.
No, go to where it specifically says (now pay attention, this is the part that applies to tests).

Performance Effects: Doses of 10-30 mg methamphetamine have shown to improve reaction time, relief fatigue, improve cognitive function testing, increase subjective feelings of alertness, increase time estimation

I did a google on abusing adderal for tests and got a HUGE number of papers.

http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/education/1729.html

If you think it's false, furnish papers to back yourself up. Post research that shows that adderal does not help in test taking.

Otherwise, don't speculate without facts.
 
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  • #44
Evo said:
No, go to where it specifically says (now pay attention, this is the part that applies to tests).

i don't think it says what you think it says. but also check out the scientific american article at the nature link.
 
  • #45
Proton Soup said:
OK, let's sift through individual papers.

Logan BK. Methamphetamine - Effects on Human Performance and Behavior. Forens Sci Rev 2002;14(1/2):133-51.
http://www.biblioteca.cij.gob.mx/Archivos/Materiales_de_consulta/Drogas_de_Abuso/Metanfetaminas/Articulos/methamphetamine.pdf
and it looks like most of the rest of it is about psychomotor performance. in fact, that seems to be the real focus of the fact sheet and its references: how these drugs affect things like driving. so some evidence that these drugs help students cheat is still lacking.
By "cheating" I understand; motivating a student to do something she or he couldn't do without the drug.
 
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  • #46
Evo said:
No, go to where it specifically says (now pay attention, this is the part that applies to tests).



I did a google on abusing adderal for tests and got a HUGE number of papers.

If you think it's false, furnish papers to back yourself up. Post research that shows that adderal does not help in test taking.

Otherwise, don't speculate without facts.

test taking for whom? people with impairments or without?

is there a study on normals that supports your case?
 
  • #47
Proton Soup said:
No, according to your article

Ethical Dissonance
Arguments about safety, fairness and coercion aside, demand is indeed high for cognitive enhancers that are otherwise prescribed for conditions such as ADHD. Based on government data gathered in 2007, more than 1.6 million people in the U.S. had used prescription stimulants nonmedically during the previous 12 months. Legal medicines in this category include methylphenidate (Ritalin), the amphetamine Adderall, and modafinil (Provigil). On some campuses, one quarter of students have reported using the drugs. And an informal online reader survey by Nature last year showed 20 percent of 1,427 respondents from 60 countries polled about their own use said they had used either methylphenidate, modafinil or beta blockers (the last for stage fright). Overall, a need for improved concentration was the reason cited most frequently. People often manage to acquire the drugs on the Internet or from doctors, who can prescribe medicines approved for one purpose to treat something else (drugmakers, however, cannot legally promote such “off label” uses).

The recent push for ethical guidelines, of course, presumes that these drugs are better than placebos and do in fact improve some aspect of cognition, be it attention, memory or “executive function” (planning and abstract reasoning, for instance).
 
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  • #48
Even it if it affects attention, you still have to learn the material and retain it for the test (and hopefully longer). So I don't really care (at the college level). I can't monitor everything in my classroom, and it isn't directly hurting anyone else (but then i set my standards and tend to adhere to the strictly, limiting curving, etc. to within reason... say if a question has funny wording, etc... and my standards are high and require real processing... something cramming doesn't really work for.)

The question for a student to ask themselves: do you want to do this to your body while knowing (or not knowing) possible side effects? Or knowing its benefits?

Our middle son is on Concerta (a decision made before I became his stepmom). Really sometimes I think it does @#$% to help his attention/grades, but in his case, if he is not on it, his eyes don't even focus to adjust to light properly. We can actually see this physically... soI know it's SOME aid. But he needs to get monitored for blood pressure every 6 months to be sure it isn't too high, and get a yearly heart check at the hospital, etc. to keep an eye out of heart risk, etc. Negative side effects (usual concern heart trouble/stroke?) are increased for "users" who aren't screened by a physician, especially for at-risk pre-exisiting conditions or conflicting medication. Personally, I wouldn't think the risk worth it (especially if you can probably easily find a doctor to prescribe it/monitor you.)

I don't think the public schools should test for it. Too expensive, too paternal. Let parents be worried about this themselves. There's other things for classroom teachers to worry about... cell phone use (including cheating), kids writing stuff on desks for each other, plagiarism (especially with the internet) and perhaps even illegal drugs and overall safety. And in my limited anecdotal experience, all the students I've known legally on these meds (who have told me) still seem to have overall academic difficulty, even with the drug. I don't really see it as a fix... and barely as an aid.
 
  • #49
Evo said:
No, according to your article

presumes?

look, I'm not the one making an accusation of cheating, and i think a charge of cheating is pretty serious, especially in an academic environment. one of those aspects of cognition presumed there is also the illness these drugs are prescribed to treat: attention deficit. i know this is personal for you, and i don't want it to be. i just don't think that good evidence is being presented here that these drugs are giving non-impaired students a significant advantage over those without the drug who are also non-impaired.
 
  • #50
Isn't ADHD a behavioural problem, as in not neurological?
 
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