Programs Can You Pursue Two PhDs from Different Universities?

[ice109]

this might seem like a silly question but can you get a phd at a mediocre school and then apply for another one at a better school? is this completely unheard of? illegal? seems like getting one phd is really good preparation for getting another so someone who does that should be very appealing to an admissions committee?

 

[Manchot]

It would be pointless. You'd be far better off getting a post-doc.

 

[cristo]

this might seem like a silly question but can you get a phd at a mediocre school and then apply for another one at a better school? is this completely unheard of? illegal? seems like getting one phd is really good preparation for getting another so someone who does that should be very appealing to an admissions committee?

No, I don't agree with this. By doing a PhD in a subject area you are working to becoming an expert in that small, specific area. Why, then, would you do another in a different area? Remind me of the saying 'jack of all trades, master of none.'

 

[Choppy]

I don't see too much point in trying to do a second PhD - especially if you want to stay in the same general area. Once you've finished one, you (should) have the basic skill set to perform original research in your area of choice. And if you want to change focus areas, that's possible without going back to school. Not everyone ends up doing a post-doc in exactly the same field they did their PhD in anyway.

 

[will.c]

Why on Earth would you spend a couple more years making < $20k doing a research project when having a Ph.D. allows you to earn much more for doing the same research project?

Honestly it's a waste of time, and also someone pursuing a second Ph.D. looks incapable of starting their own research program, proving that both degrees were worthless.

 

[mgb_phys]

Wouldn't 2*PhDs be a paradox (sorry you have to read it out load )

 

[Mapes]

I've never heard of a reputable university in the sciences or engineering that would accept into their PhD program an applicant who already had a PhD. Take a look at the admissions requirements of a few schools to confirm this if you like.

I agree with you that getting a PhD qualifies you to earn another, but that's undesirable for both schools. The first school is not placing their graduate in any important position, and the second school couldn't expect to mold the person in the school's own style because that person has already been trained. Finally, most PhDs don't have the stamina to work that hard again for such an incremental reward.

As Manchot stated, the normal course of action is to post-doc at the better school, which can potentially be favorable for all parties.

 

[ice109]

you guys give the silliest reasons but it being unfeasible. what if i don't care about making less than 20k a year, what if i do have the stamina to keep working at that level? there is no education like the kind you'll get working directly under an expert in the field - something you can only get by being their student.

No, I don't agree with this. By doing a PhD in a subject area you are working to becoming an expert in that small, specific area. Why, then, would you do another in a different area? Remind me of the saying 'jack of all trades, master of none.'

it's not like most undergrads come in with any kind of relevant experience anyway. the first phd demonstrates that you have the work ethic and abilities, which is what admissions want isn't it?

 

[wildman]

There was a fellow whose Dad left him a small fortune which he could draw from while in college. He earned 27 degrees over 40 years: Never leaving college. I don't know if any were graduate degrees but I wouldn't doubt it. That is a possible motivation.

 

[Hippo]

Yes its possible. Over here most of our Engineering staff members and Professors have dual PhD from their homeland and another one obtained over here in the States. We got Turkish, Chinese, Indian and Iranian professors with dual PhD here in California.

There is a Chinese Professor that has a degree in Physics in Beijing Normal University and another here in Berkley and is doing just fine in teaching here in Southern California. Another guy over here is Indian but he doesn't have a degree from the states, he graduated from India Institute of Technology and is teaching courses in the department in Electrical Engineering in San Diego right now, as long as you can do the job effectively and professionally no one really cares in what kinda institution you'd studied from.

 

[Mike H]

there is no education like the kind you'll get working directly under an expert in the field...

That's the point of a postdoc - to broaden one's horizons (if so desired) by working more closely with an expert in the field, more as a junior colleague than a student (ideally). They don't need to instill the sorts of things one should pick up as a grad student since you've already had those experiences. Any courses you take/audit are for your own edification and benefit, not because of some program requirements.

Of course, I am of the opinion you couldn't pay me enough to do another Ph.D., my tolerance for being a grad student is shot. :)

 

[jhicks]

There was a fellow whose Dad left him a small fortune which he could draw from while in college. He earned 27 degrees over 40 years: Never leaving college

Ok you're going to have to provide some evidence of this.

Also, I've heard of universities who allow people with PhD's to get a second. My alma mater does for engineering I know for a fact, and it was a fairly well-regarded program with a lot of headhunting by big companies.

 

[TMFKAN64]

Some schools have explicit rules, some don't. UC Berkeley, for example, has a rule that someone with a Ph.D. cannot be accepted into another Ph.D. program without the department first petitioning the administration for an exception to the rule. I have no idea if these exceptions are granted routinely or not, but I would guess that the problem doesn't come up terribly often.

As to why someone would do this... well, what if you get bored with your first field after a decade or two? ;-)

However, most of the advice I've heard is to just look for a post-doc...

 

[vociferous]

I think that there might be good reasons to get multiple graduate degrees, but I hardly see the point of getting two PhDs.

For instance, someone could get a BS in Physics, teach at a High School, get a Master's in education, and then go back to school for a PhD in Physics.

Or someone could get a MD, then decide to go into administration and get an MBA.

I honestly think in most cases, if you are interested in another field, you would be a lot better served just taking a couple of classes, or maybe getting a bachelors, unless you have a trust fund and want to be able to impress people with your two Doctoral degrees.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There was a fellow whose Dad left him a small fortune which he could draw from while in college. He earned 27 degrees over 40 years: Never leaving college. I don't know if any were graduate degrees but I wouldn't doubt it. That is a possible motivation.

That sounds suspiciously like the plot of Zelazny's Doorways In The Sand. Can you point me towards some documentation of this in real life?

 

[ice109]

i like being in school. it's that simple

 

[TMFKAN64]

i like being in school. it's that simple

Then become a professor.

 

[Maxwell]

Getting two PhDs is absolutely ridiculous. Once you've earned one, you are more than able to learn whatever you need to know on your own. You don't need to be enrolled in a PhD program to learn new subjects. If you enjoy the university atmosphere so much, go into academia. Of course, this is assuming you're after two PhDs in similar or related fields. If you want a PhD in physics and another in Comparative Literature, well, that's a different story. However, it sounds like you haven't met a guy I know called Real Life.

Finally, it sounds to me like you are not sure that you will be able to get into a top PhD program within your field, and you believe that if you obtain a PhD at a mid-level institution, you'd be able to leverage that into a top-tier PhD program. That's a waste of time - just get into the best school you can and excel. You can try to step up in tier as a post-doc after you've kicked some ***.

 

[George Jones]

Malcom Ludvigsen, artist and author of a deceptively sophisticated book on general relativity, has two Ph.Ds (Newcastle and Pittsburgh).

"When I'm not painting, I'm a professor of mathematics. I have an international reputation for my work in relativity, black holes, and cosmology. I'm author of quite well known book on general relativity." From

http://www.malcolmludvigsen.org.uk/artist.htm

 

[JasonJo]

I'll come at a different angle. Do you think it's ethical for you to try to take up a PhD spot when you already have a PhD? Personally, if I found out that someone who already has a math PhD was admitted over me, I would be furious.

I don't quite see what the point of 2 PhD's is? OK so you like being in school, so maybe being a postdoc does not appeal to you. But why would anyone justify giving you funding?

To me, do whatever the hell you want, I don't care, nobody else here cares either really. But I just do not see the reasoning behind two PhDs? Is this so your 2nd PhD will be at somewhere really top notch? I don't quite see it.

 

[ice109]

Getting two PhDs is absolutely ridiculous. Once you've earned one, you are more than able to learn whatever you need to know on your own. You don't need to be enrolled in a PhD program to learn new subjects. If you enjoy the university atmosphere so much, go into academia. Of course, this is assuming you're after two PhDs in similar or related fields. If you want a PhD in physics and another in Comparative Literature, well, that's a different story. However, it sounds like you haven't met a guy I know called Real Life.

Finally, it sounds to me like you are not sure that you will be able to get into a top PhD program within your field, and you believe that if you obtain a PhD at a mid-level institution, you'd be able to leverage that into a top-tier PhD program. That's a waste of time - just get into the best school you can and excel. You can try to step up in tier as a post-doc after you've kicked some ***.

sounds nothing, i thought i made it pretty clear that that's why I'm doing it.

I'll come at a different angle. Do you think it's ethical for you to try to take up a PhD spot when you already have a PhD? Personally, if I found out that someone who already has a math PhD was admitted over me, I would be furious.

I don't quite see what the point of 2 PhD's is? OK so you like being in school, so maybe being a postdoc does not appeal to you. But why would anyone justify giving you funding?

To me, do whatever the hell you want, I don't care, nobody else here cares either really. But I just do not see the reasoning behind two PhDs? Is this so your 2nd PhD will be at somewhere really top notch? I don't quite see it.

you are easily one of the more immature posters on these boards. you'd be furious because someone more qualified than you got a job? i didn't ask for anyone's empathy, anyone to care, i asked if it was feasible. you need to learn how to read comprehensively and respond on topic because i made it fairly transparent in the first post my reasoning for getting two phds.

 

[cristo]

you are easily one of the more immature posters on these boards. you'd be furious because someone more qualified than you got a job? i didn't ask for anyone's empathy, anyone to care, i asked if it was feasible. you need to learn how to read comprehensively and respond on topic because i made it fairly transparent in the first post my reasoning for getting two phds.

You need to lose the attitude: you're asking for advice, and that is what you got. There is no need to call people names.

I have no idea why you would want to one PhD after the other. After all, studying for a PhD (at least the research part) is just like a postdoc, but you have less freedom to choose your path, less knowledge of your area, get paid less, and in most cases have to teach. If you're thinking of doing a PhD in an area quite close to your first PhD area, then it will be utterly pointless: instead, you just do a postdoc, and expand your horizons. If you are thinking of a completely different area, not only will you have forgotten the prerequisite material, but you will have to answer why you chose your first area!

All in all, apart from the fact you feel you want to get into a better grad school than you are capable of, I have no idea why you want to do this.

 

[vociferous]

Not to mention that at most public universities, you would have a hard time getting admitted for a second baccalaureate. It is going to be almost impossible to get into a second PhD program. That might not be true of private universities, but I suspect that many have similar policies.

 

[TMFKAN64]

Once you've earned one, you are more than able to learn whatever you need to know on your own. You don't need to be enrolled in a PhD program to learn new subjects.

Well, you maybe able to learn what you would like, but that is still quite different than managing to get a job in the field. Qualifications *do* matter.

You can certainly make small hops... if you have a Ph.D. in physics, for example, I can believe that you can switch between subfields of physics without too much difficulty. I think you'd find it difficult to get a job as a chemist though. Or as a professor of comparative literature.

 

[Hippo]

Just a few names I found on google. Two PhD's no problem its possible.

Professor Sergei Krasheninnikov, Double major in Physics and Mathematics in Kurchatov Institute of Atomic Energy, Moscow, Russia. Holds a non American degree and currently teaches in Aeronautics and Mechanical Engineering at a Top 10 University at UCSD.
http://www.jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/faculty/faculty_bios/findprofile.pl?fmp_recid=74

Professor Ilya Dumer is a Russian graduate from Russian Academy of Science now lecturing at UC Riverside. Doesn't even need an American Degree, no?
http://spider.ee.ucr.edu/~dumer/

Jianlin Liu Associate Professor, Double major in Physics and Engineering from Nanjing University, China and UCLA.
http://spider.ee.ucr.edu/~jianlin/

Professor Ronald Kline Double major in Mechanical Engineering and Material Science here in SDSU.
http://mechanical.sdsu.edu/fac_staff/profiles/kline.htm

 

[Mapes]

Hippo, ice109 isn't proposing a double major, but rather two consecutive PhDs .

 

[muppet]

Once you have a PhD I think that where you did it counts for much less than what you do next. You'll eventually be expected to stand or fall on your own merits and an extra three years with a more esteemed supervisor probably won't do as much to develop those merits as a postdoc would.

I think the question of how similar two fields have to be to move sideways from one to another before having to do a second PhD is an interesting one though. So say you have a PhD in theoretical nuclear physics. Would it be easier to move sideways into some other theoretical discipline (say string theory, if you had the advanced undergraduate background) or to experimental nuclear physics (say with a view to working on medical imaging)? How about moving from string theory to experimental nuclear??

 

[jtbell]

After I finished my Ph.D., my dissertation advisor switched from experimental high energy particle physics to biophysics. However, his situation was different from ice109's in that he had been working in HEP for over 20 years and had tenure. He simply started learning about biophysics on the side and working with one of the profs who was working in biophysics at the same university, while easing out of the HEP group.

 

[PowerIso]

Why don't you just get a masters at a moderate school, and then go on to a PhD at a better one? A friend of mine went to a small school in Missouri for his masters and then went off to a top 10 school (world) for his PhD and now is a professor at a pretty good school.

Trying to get a second PhD is pretty impractical. A lot of schools simply say no, others say you better give a damn good reason, and I would be wary of ones that say they don't care.

 

[Redbelly98]

... what if i do have the stamina to keep working at that level?

Have you started on your first Ph.D. yet? If not, then you don't know what "that level" is.

... there is no education like the kind you'll get working directly under an expert in the field - something you can only get by being their student.

You can get that education by being a post-doc for an expert, or a junior colleague (assistant prof) collaborating with that expert. And that expert will respect you more.

 

[JasonJo]

you are easily one of the more immature posters on these boards. you'd be furious because someone more qualified than you got a job? i didn't ask for anyone's empathy, anyone to care, i asked if it was feasible. you need to learn how to read comprehensively and respond on topic because i made it fairly transparent in the first post my reasoning for getting two phds.

Well I apologize if I came off as immature.

However, I am really wondering if you aren't better off just getting a postdoc. Here is why: Let's say you get a PhD from a certain place and you want to get a PhD at a better place. Ok, so more than likely, you won't have to take any masters courses since you already have a PhD. So really you would be jumping into the research phase. So you'd be working with professors and taking overview seminar courses while also being a TA.

Now let's contrast this to being a postdoc. Ok, you teach more than a TA, but you get paid a bit more and you also get to research, attend overview courses at your leisure and you have full access to the faculty.

The research phase lasts roughly 2-3 years and I believe postdocs also last 2-3 years. I think doing a good postdoc is more important to your career as a mathematician than getting a 2nd PhD. Again, just my opinion. I could be totally wrong.

I'm just trying to present a different view of the situation.

However, I can also see the difference between doing a postdoc at a not so great institution and doing a PhD at Harvard or Princeton and getting to work with those faculty members.

All in all, I think the only people that can answer this are the individual math departments. However it seems that you might have a tougher time getting this done just judging from everyone else's response.

 

[TMFKAN64]

Let's say you get a PhD from a certain place and you want to get a PhD at a better place. Ok, so more than likely, you won't have to take any masters courses since you already have a PhD.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... are we talking about two Ph.D.s in different fields, or two Ph.D.s in the same field? The first is possible, albeit incredibly difficult. Two Ph.D.s in the *same* subject? No, not going to happen.

If you *do* manage to get two Ph.D.s, you'll almost certainly have to do extra course work. The only way that it would be allowed in the first place is if the fields are sufficiently different, and if they are sufficiently different, you'll need extra course work.

 

[Defennder]

After I finished my Ph.D., my dissertation advisor switched from experimental high energy particle physics to biophysics. However, his situation was different from ice109's in that he had been working in HEP for over 20 years and had tenure. He simply started learning about biophysics on the side and working with one of the profs who was working in biophysics at the same university, while easing out of the HEP group.

So he earned a PhD in biophysics later?

 

[George Jones]

So he earned a PhD in biophysics later?

No, jtbell is saying the opposite of this.

He simply started learning about biophysics on the side and working with one of the profs who was working in biophysics at the same university, while easing out of the HEP group.

Since his advisor already had tenure, he was able to switch fields completely without going through the formal education process. Roughly, he started by doing an informal postdoc, with the university paying his salary instead of a faculty member's grant.

 

[Redbelly98]

In other words, one Ph.D. degree was all that was required.

A friend of mine, who has a Ph.D. in chemistry, told me that after getting his degree he had the confidence that he could learn anything else he wanted on his own.

 

[f95toli]

Many people switch fields, usually because a method/technique they learned how to use in one field turns out to be useful in another. In some cases people simply "drift" gradually over to the new areas, i.e. they are not really following a plan of any sort.
Money is also important: if you can find money to do research in your "own" field you might have to switch.
I know several people that have moved from superconducting devices (SQUIDs, qubits etc) to quantum optics and vice versa. I also have a colleague to moved from from femtosecond lasers to biophysics (initially because her lasers where useful in that field and so on).

 

[cristo]

I don't think anyone would argue that gradually switching research areas is not unusual: in fact, it's vital in order to survive in some fields! However, that is an entirely different matter from the one in the OP, namely a student planning to study one area, then take a PhD in a different one immediately.

 

[vociferous]

Switching between one field of physics and another is a little difference than deciding you want to teach History at a University instead of Chemistry.

 

[Anthony]

My supervisor (Prof. of Mathematics) did got his MD while doing a post-doc (in mathematics). I'm not entirely sure why he did this, but I *think* it was because Gelfand got him interested in protein folding.

 

[leumas614]

Instead of a second PhD, what if you just got a masters? Then you'd have the doctorate in one field which shows you can do research and masters in another field which shows you have taken graduate level courses.

Is it possible to get a PhD in chemical engineering and then afterwards a masters in Mechanical Engineering?

 

[TMFKAN64]

Is it possible to get a PhD in chemical engineering and then afterwards a masters in Mechanical Engineering?

The problem is: what have you done in chemical engineering that qualifies you to take graduate courses in mechanical engineering? You'll almost certainly have to take some of the undergraduate mechanical engineering courses in order to be prepared.

That said, sure, it's possible.

 

[ssmm]

Yes its possible. Over here most of our Engineering staff members and Professors have dual PhD from their homeland and another one obtained over here in the States. We got Turkish, Chinese, Indian and Iranian professors with dual PhD here in California.

There is a Chinese Professor that has a degree in Physics in Beijing Normal University and another here in Berkley and is doing just fine in teaching here in Southern California. Another guy over here is Indian but he doesn't have a degree from the states, he graduated from India Institute of Technology and is teaching courses in the department in Electrical Engineering in San Diego right now, as long as you can do the job effectively and professionally no one really cares in what kinda institution you'd studied from.

Dear Hippo ,will you please let me know the name and web address of the chinese Prof.in Physics who is having two Ph.Ds one from Beijing Normal university and one from Berkely working in Southern California ? as you have mentioned.
Thanks.

 

[wmac]

I returned from industry (after 8 years of work) to do my masters. because I was away from school I was forced to enter a medium university (a top university in a medium country i.e. Malaysia).

As one of the professors in the school said my masters thesis was among the only 2 thesis which were given the "excellent" mark in the history of the school.

However, after that I could not secure a scholarship from a reputable university (partly because of political issues , partly because I had done in not a top university). However my current university provided me with a full scholarship.

Anyway, I was forced to start my PhD here (since 8 months ago). I am sure I'll regret remaining in this university in future. I wish I had money to go to Europe or Japan at least.

You know what is a difference? In a medium university, an excellent student will at most become a medium researcher. In a better environment, under better supervision, a good student becomes a good researcher.

Because we have British system here (research only), there is no postgraduate course you mat attend. I need some courses (math, physics and even computer) but the only way is to study for yourself and considering our limited time, this is sometimes impossible.

I was also thinking about doing a second PhD is a better place.

What do you advise?

 

[Dragonfall]

Personally I'd be thrilled if you did a second PhD. It would mean less competition for post doc positions.

 

[Joydivining]

Ice109's posted nothing but vague+inflammatory comments and while the thread's premise has engendered some interesting discourse, I call troll.

*edited in the correct name, apologies to ice109*

 

[Landau]

Iceman? Do you mean ice109?

 

[Choppy]

Ice109's posted nothing but vague+inflammatory comments and while the thread's premise has engendered some interesting discourse, I call troll.

*edited in the correct name, apologies to ice109*

I think there's a statute of limitations on troll calling.

 

[ice109]

and anyway this is a weird topic to troll on don't you think?