Suggestion Third Party Moderation for Objectivity in Discussions

[Evo]

Do you think members report or have the idea that they can report mentors?

Members report mentors all of the time, and we do discuss it.

 

[lisab]

I've seen a couple mentors abuse their 'power' more than once, and often its the same couple of mentors. Of course, some like 'power' more than others and they appear to step over the line of being 'mentor', to me, because they 'think' they're right; and, because they were given the power of a mentor, and they use it.

Most mentors, I believe, are here doing what they're doing and doing it almost always in a good way.

This forum isn't perfect.

I've seen other mentors defend other mentors, the way some members defend other members, and some members defend mentors---even when I don't see a clear logically reason.

It's too bad that the 'discussion' of the infraction (in the mentors' subforum) isn't open more to that member in some way, because it may often be avoided.

I think that some mentors need counseling more than some others. And, just because some people are called 'mentors' doesn't make their opinion correct, or that they are doing the right thing.

Do you think members report or have the idea that they can report mentors?

I'll tell you what, I'm going to do it if I see a problem with them from now on, even if I'm not involved with the discussion, and I think other members should too--that may make the other mentors more aware of problems.

An excellent idea!

Based on the give-and-take in this thread, I think members and mentors don't always interpret interactions the same way. Maybe the best way to address this is for the committed members to be more active giving feedback, using the report key.

 

[Borek]

Maybe the best way to address this is for the committed members to be more active giving feedback, using the report key.

Who will be the first to risk?

 

[lisab]

Who will be the first to risk?

I nominate you!

 

[rewebster]

I nominate you!

I double nominate you!




(maybe if the 'report' button was just renamed to 'evaluate, please' button)-


--I like the way microsoft has a '?' next to some things---maybe one of those could be put next to the 'report' button with a description of its purpose which would include being able to report a bad/over the top post even by a mentor.

 

[russ_watters]

We've had issues with people not understanding the functioning of the report button in the past and have revised the description in the terms of use at least once inan attept to ensure people aren't shy about reporting posts.

 

[NeoDevin]

I've reported posts by mentors lots of times.

 

[Redbelly98]

We've had issues with people not understanding the functioning of the report button in the past and have revised the description in the terms of use at least once inan attept to ensure people aren't shy about reporting posts.

What some members may be unaware of is that, when you go to report a post, you may ignore the message that says:

Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) and unappropriated posts.​

That message is a built-in feature of the forum, Greg does not have the ability to change it unfortunately. Feel free to report any post where you think there might be some issue. Whether or not we decide to take action, it will at least be brought to our attention.

 

[rewebster]

What some members may be unaware of is that, when you go to report a post, you may ignore the message that says:

Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) and unappropriated posts.​

ignore because 'unappropriated' is not the right word?

 

[Evo]

ignore because 'unappropriated' is not the right word?

Believe me, we've brought that up before.

 

[rewebster]

Believe me, we've brought that up before.

how do I know that's not one of the two times you (as a woman) are not telling the truth /day?

 

[phizo]

I have just posted in here to raise an isue regarding a locked thread and that thread was locked too.

Who is this Greg I can appeal too?

 

[Evo]

I have just posted in here to raise an isue regarding a locked thread and that thread was locked too.

Who is this Greg I can appeal too?

Greg is unreachable. I PM'd you. The thread will remain locked. I suggest that you read the message I sent you.

 

[phizo]

Greg is unreachable. I PM'd you. The thread will remain locked. I suggest that you read the message I sent you.

This one?

"Right now all of your posts have come under scrutiny and you are being discussed. I suggest that you cut out the nonsense if you wish to continue to be allowed to post here. This is a serious forum."

Firstly I welcome any scrutiny of my posts because I don't see anything wrong with them.
As I don't believe I have posted any nonsense, I will look for another forum.

 

[rhody]

I want to make a single observation about a new member's first post that I witnessed. After reading it without going into details I knew they were trying to sell half baked ideas, not listen to reason. They had all the classic signs of a crackpot. I instinctively knew that that member's first post would be their last. I even e-mailed a couple of friend's jokingly about it.

Sadly, I was correct. On the bright side, if everyone with an agenda without basing their posts on real science, PF would become a wasteland in a hurry.

I am grateful we have the mentor's we do here. No one is perfect, and the honest discussion by mentors about peer mentors behavior in this thread proves it. That being said, I want to end on a positive note, keep up the good work, at times it goes unnoticed, however, I for one appreciate it.

Rhody...

 

[Moonbear]

Do you think members report or have the idea that they can report mentors?

Just so you have fair warning...doing something like that is a good way to get nominated to be a mentor. (Well, as long as it's done respectfully, anyway.)

And, actually, it has happened that members report a mentor when a mentor has themselves crossed the line. And, I do recall times when the mentor's posts were the ones deleted as being the ones that were problematic. That's also why there isn't just one or two mentors, but a whole group of them with different personalities and perspectives and areas of expertise to provide some internal checks and balances. There are times when moderation decisions have practically turned into a bar brawl in the mentor's forum. Members have had infractions reversed. Again, if they respectfully dispute it, the mentors do listen.

 

[DaveC426913]

OK, I'm satisfied that this issue has been given due analysis.

I can't expect that every single time a user (even me) gets on the wrong side of an infraction that the system will be overhauled.

The system is working extremely well, no one can argue that.

Carry on.

 

[Count Iblis]

OK, I'm satisfied that this issue has been given due analysis.

I can't expect that every single time a user (even me) gets on the wrong side of an infraction that the system will be overhauled.

The system is working extremely well, no one can argue that.

Carry on.

It works extremely well as far as dealing with the crackpot problem. Because most other forums fail in this regard, this makes PF stand out as almost unique.

However, the methods used to achieve this have side effects and addressing those side effects is not appreciated. And that reminds me of private discussions I had with a friend in East Germany in 1981: "The system is working well, we don't have poverty here, there are no homeless people freezing to death in winter on the streets. And yes, we do have a handful of dissidents in jail, no system can be perfect in all regards..."

 

[ZapperZ]

It works extremely well as far as dealing with the crackpot problem. Because most other forums fail in this regard, this makes PF stand out as almost unique.

However, the methods used to achieve this have side effects and addressing those side effects is not appreciated. And that reminds me of private discussions I had with a friend in East Germany in 1981: "The system is working well, we don't have poverty here, there are no homeless people freezing to death in winter on the streets. And yes, we do have a handful of dissidents in jail, no system can be perfect in all regards..."

Except that people in the old East Germany can't leave to choose another place to live in. As far as I can tell, no one is stopping you from walking out the door.

Zz.

 

[DanP]

Except that people in the old East Germany can't leave to choose another place to live in. As far as I can tell, no one is stopping you from walking out the door.

Zz.

Oh, they could choose to leave to another place to live in. There is always choice. Only that they shoot dead the ones who tried to leave.

 

[DaveC426913]

Oh, they could choose to leave to another place to live in. There is always choice. Only that they shoot dead the ones who tried to leave.

...which is, obviously, where the analogy falls apart. (Unless you think the PF Mods are particularly vindictive. )

No need to follow the analogy beyond its usefulness.

 

[cesiumfrog]

Typically, moderators will only act in clear-cut cases if they have a conflict of interest and will otherwise bring the issue up for discussion first.

Dave, your OP is something the staff has talked about in the past and take efforts in doing.

This post is not a criticism of PF or the moderators.

To elaborate on this. It is a rule we follow that before we "intentionally" edit a post, we put a copy of the original post in the mentor's forum first.

Do you think this is a systemic problem in PF? In other words, is this a common occurrence

I think maybe the disconnect between members and mentors is that many netizens would want to distinguish between having "justice" be done, and having it seen to be done. (If these cases and potentially perceived biases are murky enough to be discussed in secrecy among mentors already, I can't see why the final action should need be performed by the same one personally involved in the thread.)

The issue in the OP certainly does remain a very common occurrence (https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=410406").

A related question: is there any way for members to always be automatically notified if someone else edits any of the posts they authored, and be privately posted a copy from before the edit? (And to at least be notified if a thread in which you partook is altered?) For me, much of the value of PF (specifically rather than a new forum) is the ability to find and return to where I've figured something out here in the past, and quickly remind myself by my own words (or by whoever's words I found most useful originally). I guess it's like facebook: our own contributions continually increase its value to us, then people get up in arms when they realize they've let themselves become dependent on the vagaries of a third party. And next thing you know, diaspora project is something people would blindly pay practically anyone to try to develop..

 

[Evo]

A related question: is there any way for members to always be automatically notified if someone else edits any of the posts they authored, and be privately posted a copy from before the edit? For me, much of the value of PF (specifically rather than a new forum) is the ability to return to where I've figured something out here in the past, and quickly remind myself by my own words.

Yes, if your post had to be edited, we copy it before it's edited and you can request a copy. Same thing if it was deleted. I've pm'd people copies of both.

 

[russ_watters]

...but it would be nice if it was automatic because we occasionally lose posts accidentally.

 

[Evo]

...but it would be nice if it was automatic because we occasionally lose posts accidentally.

Especially when you hit the edit button by mistake. I accidently edited one of Zoob's posts today.

 

[GeorginaS]

I think maybe the disconnect between members and mentors is that many netizens would want to distinguish between having "justice" be done, and having it seen to be done. (If these cases and potentially perceived biases are murky enough to be discussed in secrecy among mentors already, I can't see why the final action should need be performed by the same one personally involved in the thread.)

I agree with the idea that there's a disconnect between seeing what happens when there's an obvious disagreement that's not an issue of crackpottery or disrespect or what-have-you between a mentor and a member and simply an issue of opinion differences. Then stuff disappears and likely discussion goes to PM, and we're left not knowing what happened. That can cause subsequent leeriness when dealing with a particular mentor, because you don't know where you're going to stand. It's potentially a really uncomfortable position to be in.

At the same time, I entirely understand not having arguments in public about board rules and policy and infraction consequences. I don't tolerate it on a board I run either. Still. There's got to be some middle ground, I would hope.

 

[NeoDevin]

Especially when you hit the edit button by mistake. I accidently edited one of Zoob's posts today.

Maybe some sort of popup confirmation for the mentors "Are you sure you want to edit SoAndSo's post?", when they click edit?

 

[Evo]

Maybe some sort of popup confirmation for the mentors "Are you sure you want to edit SoAndSo's post?", when they click edit?

That would be wonderful.

 

[Borg]

I read a few pages of this thread and it really enlightened me about the moderation process. Like others, I did not realize that there was even a moderators forum where each infraction is discussed. More proof of the quality of Physics Forums IMHO.

I haven't read everything in this thread so I don't know if this has been suggested. Maybe a statement along the lines of "The mentors have decided..." would show that the decision wasn't made by one person without going into great detail about the process.

 

[cesiumfrog]

[popup edit confirmation for the mentors] would be wonderful.

If the admin isn't able to edit the text string associated with reporting posts, an entire new feature mightn't be likely. But when members edit their own posts, it is only then that they are supplied text edit box, and they already must afterward confirm to submit and otherwise may cancel. Oh, is the problem for moderators failing to notice that the post they think they are writing a reply to is not wrapped in QUOTE tags (and that the original copy only goes to private forums if the moderator chose deliberately to copy it there manually)?

 

[Evo]

If the admin isn't able to edit the text string associated with reporting posts, an entire new feature mightn't be likely. But when members edit their own posts, it is only then that they are supplied text edit box, and they already must afterward confirm to submit and otherwise may cancel. Oh, is the problem for moderators failing to notice that the post they think they are writing a reply to is not wrapped in QUOTE tags (and that the original copy only goes to private forums if the moderator chose deliberately to copy it there manually)?

The mentors have a different view, we also have different buttons. You'd be surprised how easy it is to accidently edit.