Smart or Attractive? Biology's Debate on Selection

[Evo]

We've been having a discussion over in biology about selection.

Be honest, if you had only two choices, your mate could either be very intelligent, but homely, or beautiful and dumb, which would you choose?

 

[EnumaElish]

I voted; and feel lucky I didn't have to choose in real life.

 

[BobG]

I voted; and feel lucky I didn't have to choose in real life.

Because you couldn't choose homely and dumb?

Or because you couldn't choose smart and beautiful?

Or because, in real life, the answer would be none of the above because the chances are almost nil of finding a mate that will have anything to do with you.

Yes, this poll really needed more options. I really wanted to choose homely, dumb, and drunk.

 

[radou]

My choice depends on what your definition of "mate" is. If it's not just sex, then I'll definitely vote for the intelligent one. I could never live with an idiot.

 

[JasonRox]

I vote both.

 

[chroot]

I dunno.. intelligence and beauty are nice, but love, compassion, and kindness are more important to me than both. I don't really care what mix of intelligence and beauty she has, as long as she has a good heart.

- Warren

 

[Moonbear]

If those are my only choices (and some days it sure does look that way ), I'm afraid my genetic contribution to future generations is done for.

 

[Evo]

My choice depends on what your definition of "mate" is. If it's not just sex, then I'll definitely vote for the intelligent one. I could never live with an idiot.

It's nothing to think too deeply about. I seem to have remembered discussions where a lot of people placed looks over intelligence and I was curious to see if they had this difficult of a choice, if it would sway them in a particular direction.

I mean eventually we all get old and not that good looking.

The easy choice obviously would to have looks and intelligence.

 

[wolram]

which one says no most often?

 

[Astronuc]

How dumb? and How homely?

 

[Evo]

How dumb? and How homely?

Let's say 5 on a scale of ten for both, so average.

I just realized I'm somewhat shallow. I want at least a 6 on my scale of attractivess with DD being a 10.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I voted for intelligent but homely. If my wife finds out that I voted at all, it will be the end of me. After all, she's no dummy. I doubt I could even go 5 rounds with someone stupid. Looks wouldn't help in that case. So put a bag over her head. And put another one over your own head too if it'll help.

 

[Moonbear]

How dumb? and How homely?

Precisely!

I'm not sure I could stand being around either a box of rocks in terms of mentality, or someone so hideous I felt icky if they touched me. But, if it's more like someone who's very intelligent and just mediocre in looks vs someone drop-dead gorgeous and just mediocre in intelligence, I'd choose intelligence over looks. If we're talking about the complete extremes of Einstein vs Rainman, I think I'd have to go with looks (as long as he doesn't try talking while the actual mating was happening, that might be more doable).

 

[Moonbear]

Let's say 5 on a scale of ten for both, so average.

I just realized I'm somewhat shallow. I want at least a 6 on my scale of attractivess with DD being a 10.

Okay, if we're talking average for the "lesser" trait, I'm going for intelligent and average looking.

 

[Evo]

Precisely!

I'm not sure I could stand being around either a box of rocks in terms of mentality, or someone so hideous I felt icky if they touched me. But, if it's more like someone who's very intelligent and just mediocre in looks vs someone drop-dead gorgeous and just mediocre in intelligence, I'd choose intelligence over looks. If we're talking about the complete extremes of Einstein vs Rainman, I think I'd have to go with looks (as long as he doesn't try talking while the actual mating was happening, that might be more doable).

See post 11, sorry, I should have set parameters.

We will assume that both will be equally nice.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Unless she's rich, in which case I would prefer stupid.

 

[Mk]

Intelligence == beauty

 

[Moridin]

I don't care about looks. I couldn't live without an active, mutually benefiting exchange of ideas, thoughts, comments etc.

 

[turbo]

From the Riders in the Sky (a wonderful musical group!) Stronger whiskey and weaker women is what I say!

I have dated some unattractive women that were a joy to talk to and hang out with, and some stunners that were brain-dead, and some that were otherwise interesting, but wanted "family" so strongly that it seemed like I was being evaluated as a wage-earner, not a mate. My steady date for a couple of years in HS was a Miss Maine runner-up. She was pretty, leggy, shapely, and musically talented, but it took me a couple of years before I realized that her agenda didn't fit with my more open-ended outlook. I ended up with a mate that had an upbringing more closely fitted to mine, and we have pulled together as a team. Sorry for the horse/oxen analogy, but we work very well together.

 

[chroot]

I'd also take intelligence and average looks over beauty and average intelligence. Beauty fades with time anyway, and I've always found that women with mediocre, "cute" looks grow on me rapidly if I'm attracted to their personalities. After a few weeks of interaction I think they're positively gorgeous.

- Warren

 

[Contrapositive]

Dumb, that way I am able to date them.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How homely?

 

[Moonbear]

Dumb, that way I am able to date them.

I guess that's another way to look at it.

 

[NeoDevin]

Assuming this is only for mating purposes (which is all that is specified in the OP), I chose looks. (noone tell my wife)

 

[NeoDevin]

I also feel I should add this

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34/Attractiveness-Scale

 

[cristo]

I'm sorry to say it, but I'd take beauty and average intelligence. I'm lucky, though, since my girlfriend is both beautiful and intelligent (albeit in completely different areas to me!)

 

[Moonbear]

Assuming this is only for mating purposes (which is all that is specified in the OP), I chose looks. (noone tell my wife)

I guess it depends on whether it works better for you to have your partner gagged or yourself blindfolded. I might also be able to put up with a dumb partner if I went profoundly deaf.

 

[Astronuc]

Let's say 5 on a scale of ten for both, so average.

I'd go with intelligence, and I assume by that there is some comparable level of sincerity, compassion and kindness along the lines of what chroot mentioned.

I just realized I'm somewhat shallow.

Bull - you are not!

I want at least a 6 on my scale of attractivess with DD being a 10.

I'm going to by you a new set of glasses.

 

[k3N70n]

If I had to choose I'd probably choose neither.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I guess it depends on whether it works better for you to have your partner gagged or yourself blindfolded. I might also be able to put up with a dumb partner if I went profoundly deaf.

They say the ideal marriage is between a blind woman and a deaf man.

 

[moe darklight]

boy... these poll results are not very flattering: 38% percent of PFrs are shallow, while the other 62% are liars

seriously though, call me shallow, but I couldn't choose a mate whom I find unattractive. so if it came down to an either or situation, I'd choose a girl I find attractive and look for intellectual stimulation elsewhere.
also, as someone mentioned before, just because she's not very smart it wouldn't mean she's not a wonderful person... for all you know, you might fall in love with someone who's not very smart. ... and then feel terrible about your vote (yes. YOU, 62% people) .

on the other side of the spectrum: my best friend broke up with his girlfriend who was quite pretty. now he is head over heels in love with this other girl. he thinks she's (in his own words) the "hottest girl ever." I personally think she's rather ugly and weird looking; she's not that smart either. ... my point is you might get neither, and not even know it

no, wait... I think my point was supposed to be something uplifting and romantic about love being blind... well, you get the point

 

[Evo]

boy... these poll results are not very flattering: 38% percent of PFrs are shallow, while the other 62% are liars

 

[FredGarvin]

I went with dumb and beautiful. Dumb I think you can work with...sort of the same thing as the saying "I'm fat. You're ugly. I can go on a diet."

 

[Kurdt]

Why have you made us make these choices. How about intelligent and homely, but do some swinging, or pretty and dumb and converse with intelligent women at work or on PF. I don't know. The pressure is too much. Most people are looking for someone they find intelligent and attractive.

Oh I'll go attractive and dumb and just talk to myself.

 

[Office_Shredder]

I think their personality is important (even if it is the same). Someone with a more biting, mean personality you would want to be dumb, so they wouldn't want to try messing with you, because you could talk them in circles. The kinder they are, the more palatable it is that you might lose an argument to them, and the more likely it is they would help you with their intelligence

 

[makethings]

Beauty is important. If intelligence is not genetic, then you can teach your mate. Therefore, having an attractive mate in terms of looks (eg. symmetric or proportioned features) is as best as an indicator we have to determine if they have healthy genes so as to preserve your genetic legacy during procreation. Follow your evolutionary programming.

If you are not interested in passing on your genes to the next generation, or rather you are more concerned in the short term with survival, then you would choose intelligence. Intelligence is seen as a more stable and risk-averse way of securing wealth (ie. Intelligence = better prospects to find jobs or start businesses) so that you can live comfortably.

And so that concludes my crackpot theory of why people chose what they chose.

 

[turbo]

I guess it depends on whether it works better for you to have your partner gagged or yourself blindfolded. I might also be able to put up with a dumb partner if I went profoundly deaf.

You're a stitch, Moonie!

 

[turbo]

boy... these poll results are not very flattering: 38% percent of PFrs are shallow, while the other 62% are liars

You should rent the movie "The Man With Two Brains". "Duke, duke, duke, duke of earl..." Randi Brooks was a very compliant hooker. - "I don't mind!"

Steve eventually ends up with the woman of his dreams.

 

[JasonRox]

I dunno.. intelligence and beauty are nice, but love, compassion, and kindness are more important to me than both. I don't really care what mix of intelligence and beauty she has, as long as she has a good heart.

- Warren

Those are the choices.

Obviously I want the whole package and not just beauty and intelligence. Those are the choices though.

 

[JasonRox]

Ok, why is beauty always carrying stupidity?

I dated probably one of the most stunning girls at my university and she was nowhere near dumb.

I also met many many pretty girls that weren't dumb.

I don't get it.

I met many ugly girls that were dumb though.

 

[hypatia]

I had to go with the smart, because the true thing I look for is a great sense of humor. I have found that people who are well read, are funnier.

 

[ShawnD]

I had to go with attractive. Smart is good and all but it would take a lot of brain damage and or alcohol to sleep something you find repulsive.

 

[DeadWolfe]

She can be 100 pounds overweight with a horse face as long as she appreciates De Rham cohomology.

 

[BobG]

I guess it depends on whether it works better for you to have your partner gagged or yourself blindfolded. I might also be able to put up with a dumb partner if I went profoundly deaf.

Holy cow! Blindfolds? Gags? Whips and chains, too?

Hmmm, even if you went deaf, he'd be able to sign dumb things (and probably make dumb-looking signs while he was at it.) You'll need the blindfold in either scenario.

Actually, if we're setting a 5 as the bottom level, neither one would be very high on my priority list. Then again, having a smart kid would be better than having a dumb kid, so I'd still go with smart and homely.

 

[JasonRox]

Hmmm, even if you went deaf, he'd be able to sign dumb things.

Not true. Your mate would be too dumb to learn sign language. Hence, being deaf is sufficient.

 

[ShawnD]

Not true. Your mate would be too dumb to learn sign language. Hence, being deaf is sufficient.

You'd figure out he/she is an idiot when the TV seems to be stuck on Entertainment Tonight and Fox News.

 

[Zantra]

I think this puts things in perspective:

THIS APPEARED ON CRAIG'S LIST

What am I doing wrong?

Okay, I'm tired of beating around the bush. I'm a beautiful (spectacularly
beautiful) 25 year old girl. I'm articulate and classy.
I'm not from New York. I'm looking to get married to a guy who makes at
least half a million a year. I know how that sounds, but keep in mind that a
million a year is middle class in New York City, so I don't think I'm
overreaching at all.

Are there any guys who make 500K or more on this board? Any wives? Could you
send me some tips? I dated a business man who makes average around 200 -
250. But that's where I seem to hit a roadblock. 250,000 won't get me to
central park west. I know a woman in my yoga class who was married to an
investment banker and lives in Tribeca, and she's not as pretty as I am, nor
is she a great genius. So what is she doing right? How do I get to her
level?

Here are my questions specifically:

- Where do you single rich men hang out? Give me specifics- bars,
restaurants, gyms

-What are you looking for in a mate? Be honest guys, you won't hurt my
feelings

-Is there an age range I should be targeting (I'm 25)?

- Why are some of the women living lavish lifestyles on the upper east side
so plain? I've seen really 'plain jane' boring types who have nothing to
offer married to incredibly wealthy guys. I've seen drop dead gorgeous girls
in singles bars in the east village. What's the story there?

- Jobs I should look out for? Everyone knows - lawyer, investment banker,
doctor. How much do those guys really make? And where do they hang out?
Where do the hedge fund guys hang out?

- How you decide marriage vs. just a girlfriend? I am looking for MARRIAGE
ONLY

Please hold your insults - I'm putting myself out there in an honest way.
Most beautiful women are superficial; at least I'm being up front about it.
I wouldn't be searching for these kind of guys if I wasn't able to match
them - in looks, culture, sophistication, and keeping a nice home and
hearth.


THE ANSWER


Dear Pers-431649184:

I read your posting with great interest and have thought meaningfully about
your dilemma. I offer the following analysis of your predicament.
Firstly, I'm not wasting your time, I qualify as a guy who fits your bill;
that is I make more than $500K per year. That said here's how I see it.

Your offer, from the prospective of a guy like me, is plain and simple a
crappy business deal. Here's why. Cutting through all the B.S., what you
suggest is a simple trade: you bring your looks to the party and I bring my
money. Fine, simple. But here's the rub, your looks will fade and my money
will likely continue into perpetuity...in fact, it is very likely that my
income increases but it is an absolute certainty that you won't be getting
any more beautiful!

So, in economic terms you are a depreciating asset and I am an earning
asset. Not only are you a depreciating asset, your depreciation accelerates!
Let me explain, you're 25 now and will likely stay pretty hot for the next 5
years, but less so each year. Then the fade begins in earnest. By 35 stick a
fork in you!

So in Wall Street terms, we would call you a trading position, not a buy and
hold...hence the rub...marriage. It doesn't make good business sense to "buy
you" (which is what you're asking) so I'd rather lease. In case you think
I'm being cruel, I would say the following. If my money were to go away, so
would you, so when your beauty fades I need an out. It's as simple as that.
So a deal that makes sense is dating, not marriage.

Separately, I was taught early in my career about efficient markets. So, I
wonder why a girl as "articulate, classy and spectacularly beautiful"
as you has been unable to find your sugar daddy. I find it hard to believe
that if you are as gorgeous as you say you are that the $500K hasn't found
you, if not only for a tryout.

By the way, you could always find a way to make your own money and then we
wouldn't need to have this difficult conversation.

With all that said, I must say you're going about it the right way.
Classic "pump and dump."
I hope this is helpful, and if you want to enter into some sort of lease,
let me know.


And that's why I vote smart and homely well, that and the fact that I need someone I can have a decent coversation with, but I wanted to mention the ad.

 

[Moonbear]

Not true. Your mate would be too dumb to learn sign language. Hence, being deaf is sufficient.

That's what I was hoping for. I guess I could always tie up his hands too.


Talking about smart and pretty (your other comment), I don't know if anyone but me in my insomniac mode watches those shows on tattoo artists (Miami Ink or LA Ink, or wherever someone's getting inky), but this is the sort of stuff I end up watching while not sleeping at 2 AM. Anyway, this week, they had a show where this really attractive woman comes in for a tattoo...in the very stereotypical, TV attractive sense...blonde, tall, thin, leggy. And, she wants a cartoon of a rocketship tattooed on her back. She starts talking about being a grad student in physics (I hope she's not a member here...or maybe if she is, she needs to hear this). In her tattoo design, she includes F=ma, and makes a big point to the tattoo artist about having the arrows over the variables to properly write it as vectors. The tattoo artist is getting this glazed over look as she's saying, "You don't know this equation? Everyone should know this." Then a bit later, they cut to the tattoo artist commenting how he quickly realized they "Have nothing to talk about." They cut to her and she's talking about integration, and in this strangely ditzy voice says something like, "I thought EVERYONE knew that! Who doesn't know that?" Yeah, really, she said that, apparently oblivious to how many people in the real world around her have never studied calculus.

I was just watching this show, staring, unable to pull myself away from the train wreck, trying to figure out how someone could be simultaneously SO smart and yet SO ditzy and clueless! I wanted to reach into the screen and shake her and tell her "Yes, you're smart, but now wake up to the reality of the world around you and stop being such a snob!"

So, you can have beauty and brains...but OMG!...the cluelessness and arrogance that went with it, it would be a trial of patience to spend any time around that person!

 

[Moonbear]

You'd figure out he/she is an idiot when the TV seems to be stuck on Entertainment Tonight and Fox News.

As long as they don't figure out how to turn on the close captioning so I don't know what they're actually saying, I could tolerate that.

 

[ShawnD]

That's what I was hoping for. I guess I could always tie up his hands too.

Kinky edit:

I was just watching this show, staring, unable to pull myself away from the train wreck, trying to figure out how someone could be simultaneously SO smart and yet SO ditzy and clueless! I wanted to reach into the screen and shake her and tell her "Yes, you're smart, but now wake up to the reality of the world around you and stop being such a snob!"

She probably grew up in a middle class area where everybody goes to university. I grew up in the suburbs and almost everybody I went to school with, and can find on facebook, went to university. Some of them are pretty high up too. I'm in the lower class of people who just have 1 piece of paper, but one guy I know is doing a double major in physics and biology, one went on to law school, one is doing med school, another is going for a master's degree. Conversely, my best friend grew up more towards the middle of the city, and his entire circle of friends is high school dropouts.