Why need *complex* wavefunction?

feynmann
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Does anyone know a deeper reason why the quantum mechanical wavefunction has to be complex? Is it to incorperate time dependence?

Or maybe the operator/eigenvector formulation is special and since it includes the scalar product, having complex variables is more general and necessary?

Or maybe the fact that there is some spin with its transformation means that wavefunction should be complex?
 
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Complex numbers merely provide convenient notation for some geometric stuff. It is possible to formulate QM without complex number too, if one, for some mysterious reason, would want to do so. For example, replace a wave function \Psi:\mathbb{R}\times\mathbb{R}^3\to\mathbb{C} and the Schrödinger's equation

<br /> i\hbar\partial_t\Psi(t,x) = \Big(-\frac{\hbar^2}{2m}\nabla^2 + V(x)\Big)\Psi(t,x)<br />

with a wave function \Psi:\mathbb{R}\times\mathbb{R}^3\to\mathbb{R}^2 and a Schrödinger's equation

<br /> \hbar\partial_t\left(\begin{array}{c}<br /> \Psi_1(t,x) \\ \Psi_2(t,x)<br /> \end{array}\right)<br /> =\left(\begin{array}{cc}<br /> 0 &amp; -\frac{\hbar^2}{2m}\nabla^2 + V(x) \\<br /> \frac{\hbar^2}{2m}\nabla^2 - V(x) &amp; 0 \\<br /> \end{array}\right)<br /> \left(\begin{array}{c}<br /> \Psi_1(t,x) \\ \Psi_2(t,x)<br /> \end{array}\right)<br />

and so on.
 
jostpuur said:
Complex numbers merely provide convenient notation for some geometric stuff. It is possible to formulate QM without complex number too, if one, for some mysterious reason, would want to do so. For example, replace a wave function \Psi:\mathbb{R}\times\mathbb{R}^3\to\mathbb{C} and the Schrödinger's equation

<br /> i\hbar\partial_t\Psi(t,x) = \Big(-\frac{\hbar^2}{2m}\nabla^2 + V(x)\Big)\Psi(t,x)<br />

with a wave function \Psi:\mathbb{R}\times\mathbb{R}^3\to\mathbb{R}^2 and a Schrödinger's equation

<br /> \hbar\partial_t\left(\begin{array}{c}<br /> \Psi_1(t,x) \\ \Psi_2(t,x)<br /> \end{array}\right)<br /> =\left(\begin{array}{cc}<br /> 0 &amp; -\frac{\hbar^2}{2m}\nabla^2 + V(x) \\<br /> \frac{\hbar^2}{2m}\nabla^2 - V(x) &amp; 0 \\<br /> \end{array}\right)<br /> \left(\begin{array}{c}<br /> \Psi_1(t,x) \\ \Psi_2(t,x)<br /> \end{array}\right)<br />

and so on.

It's well known that a complex number is equivalent to a set of two real number.
But why wavefunction has to have two components, not three or four components?
What's so unique about vectors/wavefunctions with two components?
 
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I think it's 2 components because it needs to incorporate 2 things: magnitude and phase. Experiments reveal the need for both of these, but do not (yet) reveal the need for any additional information.
 
Sometimes people attach unnecessarily mysterious interpretations to the complex numbers, so I wanted to debunk that part right away. Merely to make sure that unclarity would not remain hanging around the complex numbers.

feynmann said:
But why wavefunction has to have two components, not three or four components?
What's so unique about vectors with two components?

Ok, this question goes onto different level. Isn't this kind of stuff that first we observe nature, and then find out what mathematical constructs seem to describe it? Sometimes some relations are solved between seemingly independent constructs, but there are always some fundamental questions, which don't get answered. Good luck if you are interested in getting philosophical with this topic. I wouldn't spend too much time in it.

At least non-relativistic electrons should be described with wave function \Psi:\mathbb{R}\times\mathbb{R}^3\to\mathbb{C}^2 if the spin is relevant. So it has four real components. It follows that in many cases \Psi:\mathbb{R}\times\mathbb{R}^3\to\mathbb{C} is an approximation which works only when spin is not relevant. IMO it is a good philosophy to think that all mathematical constructs we use may later turn out to be approximations of something else. I'm probably not alone with this opinion?
 
One way to think about it is that the wavefunction assigns both probability and phase to each eigenstate, and that phase is critical for explaining interference effects. For any complex number x + iy, you can get a real number (the square of its absolute value or 'complex modulus) by multiplying by the complex conjugate x - iy, and in QM this is how you get the probability from the complex amplitude associated with each eigenstate. But note that for any point in the complex plane, if you draw a circle around the origin with the correct radius so that this point lies on the circle, then every point on that circle gives the same number when multiplied by its complex conjugate; so, knowing the complex amplitude associated with an eigenstate as opposed to just the real probability associated with it gives you an additional piece of information about the angle you have to go from the origin to get to that number, and this angle is essentially the phase associated with that eigenstate.

I wonder if it would be possible to actually rewrite the equations of QM so they wouldn't use complex numbers at all, and instead the wavefunction would just assign a real-valued probability and a real-valued phase angle to each eigenstate at every moment...probably it would make the equations less elegant but maybe it'd be helpful from the point of view of teaching QM to students...
 
Even in the simplest quantum mechanical system, a spin 1/2 particle whose spin can either be only up or down when measured, we can see the need for complex numbers.

A general rotation in 3 dimensions can be accomplished by acting on vectors (x,y,z) by multiplying them with a 3x3 matrix R. If you described the rotation with 3 angles, or by specifying an axis and a magnitude of rotation about that axis, then the matrix R for that rotation would be full of sines and cosines of these angles. It turns out that rotation matrices are always symmetric and have determinant 1. The set of all 3x3 symmetric matrices with real entries having determinant 1 is called SO(3).

For a 2 state spin system, such as a spin 1/2 particle, part of our task is to find a 2x2 matrix representation of SO(3), which is only possible with complex numbers, and this is because SO(3) is an isomorphic group to SU(2), where SU(2) is the set of all conjugate symmetric 2x2 matrices with complex entries having determinant 1.
 
I think there might be a deep mathematical answer in *-algebras, maybe the mathematicians will tell us in a couple of years ;)
 
I'm inclined to believe that complex numbers are not required fundamentally to describe spinless non-relativistic wavefunctions. As mentioned before if you have spin and stuff they rotate from frame to frame with complex numbers (similarly in the relativistic case, Dirac particles are complex Grassman variables: however, this isn't fundamental, as Majorana particles are just real Grassman variables). However, with spinless non-relativistic wavefunctions, if you can make the Hamiltonian pure imaginary (which requires that the matrix also be anti-symmetric for Hermicity) with a change of basis, then your wavefunction can be always real, all the time. So certain types of Hamiltonians allow the wavefunction to be real I think.
 
  • #10
Yes, but complex numbers are simpler (in algebra) then real ones, so there is nothing wrong with having some physical variables complex.
 
  • #11
I think one argument is based on the fact that the differential equation governing time evolution needs to be a wave-equation and it needs to be a first order diff. eq. in t.

It needs to be wave-equation because experiments suggest wave-like properties. It needs to be first order in t because the state should be completely determined by the wavefunction. Thus the only information (initial condition) that should be required to find out the wave-function at some time t=t_f should be the wave-function at time t=0.

A real wave equation (with real solutions) would have to be second order and then we would need not only the value of the wave function at t=0 but also it's derivative at t=0. Then the wave-function cannot completely describe the state of the system.
 
  • #12
The Bohmian approach has what is perhaps a better answer to this question. If we write the wave function as \Psi(x,t)=A(x,t)e^{iS(x,t)/\hbar}, then the Schrodinger equation separates into two equations in terms of A and S.

One equation, in the limit of vanishing Planck's constant, corresponds to the classical Hamilton-Jacobi equation of a point particle. The other, if we interpret A^2 as the pdf, corresponds to the conservation of probability.

If we had a classical problem expressed in Hamiton-Jacobi form in which the initial position of the particle was uncertain and expressed in terms of a pdf, then we would have a problem expressed in analogous quantities S and A^2.

For quantum systems a non-zero Planck's constant complicates their coupling further.
 
  • #13
RedX said:
I'm inclined to believe that complex numbers are not required fundamentally to describe spinless non-relativistic wavefunctions.
Same here. It seems very similar to the basic wave approximation of light, where only one component (amplitude) is necessary but complex numbers are used instead (effectively doubling the equations and with the second half being thrown away at the end of any calculation) because this lends itself to more concise notation.

jensa said:
A real wave equation (with real solutions) would have to be second order
Why?
 
  • #14
cesiumfrog said:
Why?

I wish I could back up that statement in rigorous way (perhaps it is not even generally true), I am more or less repeating an argument I heard back when I took QM.
As far as I can tell classical wave-equations are usually second order. And the "real valued version" (wick rotated) of the Schrödinger equation is a diffusion equation. Can someone present a first order (in time) wave-equation which is not of the schrödinger form and does not have complex solutions?

My main point was that the naive answer to the OPs question would be that wavefunctions must be complex because the solutions to the Schrödinger equation are complex. So I am suggesting the question should be rephrased as, why does the Schrödinger equation look the way it does? I guess there are a few different ways to argue that it has to have the form it has, but I am not sure they are irrefutable.

EDIT: removed (obvious) false statements
 
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  • #15
I realized that my previous post may need further clarification to tie it to the OP's question.

The point is that classically you would need at least two quantities for a quantum-like situation in which we describe the motion of a particle whose position is uncertain: one that governs the dynamical evolution of a particle given its initial value, and another quantity that contains the probability distribution of that initial value. The dynamics will then tell you the probability distribution of the particle's postion at later times.

The same necessity for two quantities carries over to the quantum realm.

It might take a lengthy post to satisfy one why this is this indeed the case but I think this much is sufficient to answer the initial question "Why two quantities?"
 
  • #16
The Schrödinger equation could be used to describe both bound systems, like a particle in a box, and open systems where electrons travels like matter-waves through a structure. It can be shown (no magnetic field) that the current of electron (probability current density) becomes zero if the wavefunction is purely real (or mulriplied by an arbitrary complex phase factor). For bound systems real wave functions are sufficient, but not for open wavelike solutions. Phase-difference (as described by complex number) allows for electrons to "jump" between different places.
 
  • #17
0xDEADBEEF said:
I think there might be a deep mathematical answer in *-algebras, maybe the mathematicians will tell us in a couple of years ;)

*-algebras are used because the wavefunction is complex. So consequently you are working in a vector space with an involution. The wavefunction does not incorporate spin so that's not the reason why it is complex (and it doesn't need to be complex, you can have a real valued wavefunction). I think the reason for them being complex is because a wave is best described in a complex field.
 
  • #19
The wave equation need not be complex. There exists two coupled real functions that will solve the Schrodinger equation. The complex function is simply easier notation.
 
  • #20
DeepThought42 said:
The wave equation need not be complex. There exists two coupled real functions that will solve the Schrodinger equation. The complex function is simply easier notation.

But then the question is why are there *two* coupled real function. The question is why is the equation of this structure.
 
  • #21
Gerenuk said:
But then the question is why are there *two* coupled real function. The question is why is the equation of this structure.

It is a product of a mathematical system that did not originally incorporate all numbers, that is, the square root of negative numbers.

Once they were accepted we had to incorporate them into our current system through the use of the complex numbers a + ib.

The side effect, equations that require two coupled real functions which is the same as a single complex function.
 
  • #22
feynmann said:
Does anyone know a deeper reason why the quantum mechanical wavefunction has to be complex?

There is an approach, called "quantum logic", which tries to deduce the formalism of quantum mechanics (Hilbert space, operators, etc.) from a set of axioms. These axioms, basically, generalize the axioms of classical logic and probability. In 1960's it has been proven that axioms of quantum logic can be satisfied by only three kinds of Hilbert spaces: those based on real numbers (R, 1-dimensional), complex numbers (C, 2-dimensional), and quaternions (Q, 4-dimensional). R-quantum mechanics is not interesting (I think, it contradicts experiment, but I am not sure how exactly). For single particles Q-quantum mechanics looks very similar to C-quantum mechanics. However, there are difficulties in describing multiparticle systems due to the non-commutativity of quaternions. Some people continue working on this approach, but I haven't heard about any interesting results there. So, our best choice is C-quantum mechanics.

If you are interested in references, try to google names C. Piron and J. M. Jauch.
 
  • #23
A real wave equation with real solutions does not have to be second order. The first chapter of G.B. Whitham's book Linear and Nonlinear Waves is devoted to first order wave equations that give rise to shock waves.

Some of you may be interested in Geometric Algebra for Physicists by Doran and Lasenby. Geometric algebra is a Clifford Algebra. In Chapter 8 the authors show how to write the Dirac equation "in the real algebra of spacetime with no need for a unit imaginary." ( p. 283, Their italics).There are a number of papers on the applications of Geometric Algebra by the above authors and their collaborators available at http://www.mrao.cam.ac.uk/~clifford/
Geometric algebra appears to have some nice features. Briefly, very very briefly, it unites the scalar product and the cross product into one operation called the geometric product. This combining of the two operations in a consistent way has, among other things, the interesting consequence that the Pauli matrices form a matrix representation of the geometric algebra of space.

Based on the development in the book I cited above and work I have seen, I would have to say that there no a priori reason why quantum mechanics has to be written in terms of complex wave functions. Historically, part of the reason is that in the 19th century when there was some contention between whether to use Clifford algebras, quaternions, or vector algebras, J. W. Gibbs' vector algebra (vector analysis) won out.
 
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  • #24
AEM said:
A real wave equation with real solutions does not have to be second order. The first chapter of G.B. Whitham's book Linear and Nonlinear Waves is devoted to first order wave equations that give rise to shock waves.

I stand corrected, thanks AEM.

Based on the development in the book I cited above and work I have seen, I would have to say that there no a priori reason why quantum mechanics has to be written in terms of complex wave functions.

I suppose you are right. I only wonder if this is not also a type of, what some might call, "cheating", i.e. replacing one complex equation with two real ones. It seems hard to imagine that one could incorporate for example QED if there is no internal structure of the field. Granted one may be able to replace the U(1) gauge group with the isomorphic group SO(2) thereby eliminating the need for complex fields but then instead we have to deal with two-component vectors, which again seems a bit like "cheating".

On the other hand I know gauge theories have a geometric interpretation in terms of fiber-bundles so I guess it is not unreasonable that it can be naturally incorporated in terms of what you describe. Probably I am just not mathematically sophisticated enough for this stuff :)

[Disclaimer: I am quite novice in field theory areas so please correct me if I am making incorrect statements]

EDIT: Probably not a good idea to bring up EM coupling since it assumes the particles have charge ... I guess the issue under discussion is disconnected from the issue of U(1) gauge theory, am I right?
 
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  • #25
meopemuk said:
There is an approach, called "quantum logic", which tries to deduce the formalism of quantum mechanics (Hilbert space, operators, etc.) from a set of axioms...
If you are interested in references, try to google names C. Piron and J. M. Jauch.

Great suggestion! That sounds what I'm looking for even though I suppose it will be too theoretical for me to understand (for the moment).
 
  • #26
AEM said:
Geometric algebra appears to have some nice features. Briefly, very very briefly, it unites the scalar product and the cross product into one operation called the geometric product.

When I wrote the above, I was under time pressure and what I wrote is misleading at best. What I should have written was: Briefly, very very briefly, it unites the scalar product and a cross product-like operation called the wedge product into one operation called the geometric product.

There are significant differences between the cross product and geometric algebra's wedge product. For one, the cross product cannot be defined in spaces of more than three dimensions while the wedge product can be. Further, the wedge product allows the definition of geometric entities whose square is -1 thus allowing one to write equations without using the imaginary unit.

I
 
  • #27
AEM said:
Geometric algebra appears to have some nice features. Briefly, very very briefly, it unites the scalar product and the cross product into one operation called the geometric product.

I had the feeling that Quaternions do the same?
 
  • #28
Gerenuk said:
I had the feeling that Quaternions do the same?

Because Geometric Algebra and Quaternions are Clifford Algebras, they have a lot in common. However, there are some subtle differences. See page 34 of the book by Doran and Lasenby for the details. Briefly, Hamilton attempted to identify pure quaternions (no scalar part) with vectors. Doran and Lasenby show that they actually are a left-handed set of bivectors (objects constructed from vectors and the wedge product). Both Geometric Algebra and Quaternions are particularly efficient in expressing rotations. This is why they are often used in computer graphics. One might anticipate that they would be useful in quantum mechanics as well.
 
  • #29
I am afraid I have repeated this several times in other threads, but this question does arise frequently. Not many people know about Shroedinger's very short article (Nature (1952), v.169, p.538), where he shows that quantum mechanics can actually do without complex numbers or, equivalently, two real numbers for the wave function, as, e.g., for any solution of the equations of the Klein-Gordon-Maxwell electrodynamics (a scalar charged field \psi interacting with electromagnetic field) there exists a physically equivalent solution with one real (not complex) field, which can be obtained from the original solution by a gauge transform (see some fine print in thread https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=98603). Thus, the entire range of physical phenomena described by the Klein-Gordon-Maxwell electrodynamics may be described using real fields only. Shroedinger's comment: "That the wave function ... can be made real by a change of gauge is but a truism, though it contradicts the widespread belief about 'charged' fields requiring complex representation."
 
  • #30
Wait,wait, *EVERYTHING* you can do with complex numbers you can do using pairs of real numbers. What is a point? Is it about the 'complex numbers can not have any physical meaning because they are complex, and all physical observables are real'? nonsense.

For mathematician complex numbers are much easier then writing pairs of real numbers. Real numbers are mentally impared. They are not alrebraicly closed.
 
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  • #31
Dmitry67 said:
Wait,wait, *EVERYTHING* you can do with complex numbers you can do using pairs of real numbers. What is a point? Is it about the 'complex numbers can not have any physical meaning because they are complex, and all physical observables are real'? nonsense.

For mathematician complex numbers are much easier then writing pairs of real numbers. Real numbers are mentally impared. They are not alrebraicly closed.

If you are replying to me, I certainly appreciate that you can always replace a complex number with two real ones. Schroedinger, however, demonstrated that you can replace the complex wavefunction of the Klein-Gordon-Maxwell system with just one real function (moreover, you can easily eliminate the wavefunction altogether, and the resulting equations will describe independent evolution of the electromagnetic field). The price you have to pay for that - you cannot choose the gauge arbitrarily anymore. Whether it's worth it or not (or in which situation that may be useful), is a matter of opinion. My point is just that you can do with one real wavefunction in some situations.
 
  • #32
Yes, but what is a real :) point?
I do believe the underlying (but hidden) subject of this topic is a mysterious hatred of physicists versus the complex numbers, like, 'use see, we can do it without these bad complex numbers, which do not have any physical meaning!'
 
  • #33
jensa said:
I stand corrected, thanks AEM.



I suppose you are right. I only wonder if this is not also a type of, what some might call, "cheating", i.e. replacing one complex equation with two real ones.

No, this formulation of the Dirac equation does not replace one equation with two real ones. The thing that is different about Geometric Algebra is that there are geometric objects that square to minus 1 for each space ( R^n )you are working in. I personally do not know about any application of Geometric Algebra to QED.
 
  • #34
Do not say, that complex numbers can be written with two real functions, because then you misunderstood the question.

Complex numbers have equivalent representations with two real numbers or even 2x2 matrices. That's all the same. The question is why is one single real number for example insufficient.

There were some really good answers and I hope a some point I'll have enough knowledge to understand their principle.
 
  • #35
meopemuk said:
There is an approach, called "quantum logic", which tries to deduce the formalism of quantum mechanics (Hilbert space, operators, etc.) from a set of axioms.

I will look up that theory at some point.

OK, which dimension to use for the numbers can be justified there. But does it also justify why operators on vectors and scalar products for probabilities should be used? Sorry, if this question doesn't make sense. I'm good at QM at a "physicists level" only.
 
  • #36
Thank you AEM for your reply, I appreciate it. And I will definitely check out the book you referred to sometime in the future when I have more time.
 
  • #37
Gerenuk said:
The question is why is one single real number for example insufficient.

The real numbers are only a small portion of all numbers that exist. There is one single complex number which is a single point on the complex plane.

The real issue is a fault in the multiplication system.
 
  • #38
Gerenuk said:
I will look up that theory at some point.

OK, which dimension to use for the numbers can be justified there. But does it also justify why operators on vectors and scalar products for probabilities should be used? Sorry, if this question doesn't make sense. I'm good at QM at a "physicists level" only.

Yes, quantum logic provides a foundation for the entire formalism of quantum mechanics, including operators, vectors, scalar products etc. If you already know QM, you may find it very entertaining to see how all this machinery follows from a set of axioms, which are not much different from axioms of classical logic and probability. Actually, only one axiom of the standard Boolean logic needs to be modified - the distributive law.

Unfortunately, I don't know any good and comprehensive introductory level book or review on quantum logic. I got my knowledge from various places:

The original idea is more than 70 years old. This paper is well-written and highly recommended

G. Birkhoff, J. von Neumann, "The logic of quantum mechanics", Ann. Math., 37, (1936), 823

Possibly, the best elementary-level introduction can be found in Section 2-2 of

Mackey, G. W., The Mathematical foundations of Quantum Mechanics, W. A. Benjamin, Inc.
(1963), New York

Piron's book contains (the substantial part of) the proof of the theorem that I've mentioned. However, this book is a bit too heavy on the mathematical side.

Piron, C. Foundations of Quantum Physics, 1976, W. A. Benjamin Inc.
Reading, Massachusetts
 
  • #39
jensa said:
Can someone present a first order (in time) wave-equation which is not of the schrödinger form and does not have complex solutions?
The Majorana equation. The catch is that the wave function is a 4-component object.
 
  • #40
Dmitry67 said:
Yes, but what is a real :) point?
I do believe the underlying (but hidden) subject of this topic is a mysterious hatred of physicists versus the complex numbers, like, 'use see, we can do it without these bad complex numbers, which do not have any physical meaning!'

I don't want to speculate what other physicists love or hate. For me, the point is that this may be important for interpretation of quantum mechanics. For example, in the case of the de Broglie-Bohm interpretation, the electromagnetic field can play the role of the guiding field in the Klein-Gordon-Maxwell system (after you get rid of the complex wavefunction).
 
  • #41
turin said:
The Majorana equation. The catch is that the wave function is a 4-component object.

Hi turin, I appreciate your answer. I probably should have pointed out that it should also have to be a scalar wave-function. Anyway, it seems AEM has already called my bluff...

However, since you replied to memaybe I can ask you a question regarding the majorana equation? I am familiar with what we in the condensed matter community call majorana fermions, and I suppose that there should be a clear relationship.

In condensed matter community we can construct two (what we call) majorana (or real) fermions from a single complex one:

\chi_1=\psi+\psi^\dag, \quad \chi_2=i(\psi-\psi^\dag)

with the properties \chi_i^\dag=\chi_i, \ i=1,2 (which together with anti-commutation relations of fermions yields interesting physics if one can separate spatially two majorana fermions from each other - has application to topological quantum computing)

The equation of motion (usually a complex one) for \psi becomes a set of real coupled equations for \chi_i. The analogy to what has been presented in this thread in terms of the Schrödinger equation should be obvious. This only replaces one complex equation to two real ones. In this sense majorana does not add anything useful to the discussion.


Going out on a limb on trying to argue the same for how high-energy physicists treat majorana fermions, I would start from the Wikipedia definition of Majorana equation:

i\partial \psi-m\psi_c=0
(note: \partial should be replaced with \partialslash which does not seem to work)
where \psi_c=\gamma^2\psi^* i.e. it is related to \psi through operation which includes complex conjugation. This equation does not seem to necessarily imply that its solutions must be real? Rather the special case where the field is (pseudo-)real \psi=\psi_c is the case when its solutions are majorana fermions. (please correct me if this interpretation is wrong)

One could consider the above majorana equation together with its complex conjugate and form an equation for a spinor

\begin{pmatrix}\psi\\\psi_c\end{pmatrix}

this spinor is also (pseudo-) real meaning that we can transform it into a basis where it is real. This whole procedure is analogous to producing from one complex spinor two real ones, or equivalently from one complex eqm to two real ones.

So it seems to me that either you postulate that \psi=\psi_c or you use the procedure above to combine \psi and \psi_c into two real spinors, i.e. replacing one complex equation for \psi into two real equations.

Am I making sense to you? My point is simply that I don't think majorana equation gives you any new insight into the problem than what has been posted in terms of replacing complex schrödinger equation with two real ones.
 
  • #42
akhmeteli said:
I am afraid I have repeated this several times in other threads, but this question does arise frequently. Not many people know about Shroedinger's very short article (Nature (1952), v.169, p.538), where he shows that quantum mechanics can actually do without complex numbers or, equivalently, two real numbers for the wave function, as, e.g., for any solution of the equations of the Klein-Gordon-Maxwell electrodynamics (a scalar charged field \psi interacting with electromagnetic field) there exists a physically equivalent solution with one real (not complex) field, which can be obtained from the original solution by a gauge transform (see some fine print in thread https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=98603). Thus, the entire range of physical phenomena described by the Klein-Gordon-Maxwell electrodynamics may be described using real fields only. Shroedinger's comment: "That the wave function ... can be made real by a change of gauge is but a truism, though it contradicts the widespread belief about 'charged' fields requiring complex representation."

While I have not read this article and unfortunately don't have time (sorry for being lazy) I would still like to comment on this. This procedure seems very much like what is used in Higgs mechanism [note that I am in no way an expert on this]. An important point is that when you choose a gauge in this way it by no means removes the degree of freedom associated with the phase. Rather it is absorbed into the the gauge field. If you originally have a complex scalar field with two degrees of freedom (magnitude and phase) and a gauge field A^\mu which, due to gauge invariance, has (only) three degrees of freedom, you will, after fixing the gauge in a way such that the scalar field becomes real, have one degree of freedom associated with the scalar field and 4! degrees of freedom of the gauge field.

So do I understand your point was that we could have taken the real field + non-gauge invariant EM field as a starting point? thus eliminating the need for complex fields at the "cost" of losing gauge invariance? This does seem quite appealing since gauge invariance is another one of those things which one might ask oneself "why do we need it?"
 
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  • #43
1) The Dirac equation can be made to be real as the gamma matrices can be made to be pure imaginary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_matrices#Majorana_basis

So if the differential equation has real coefficients, does that mean the solution does too?

2) The solution of the Majorana equation does not necessarily describe a Majorona particle. Only if solution is its own conjugate is the solution a Majorana particle. The Majorana equation is a perfectly good Lorentz-invariant equation: however, the Dirac equation is the one that matches experiment.

3) Imposing the condition that the field is self-conjugate is different than adding a field and its conjugate or subtracting a field and its conjugate (and multiplying by i). In the former case, you're solving for 1 Majorana particle, and in the latter case you're creating 2 Majorana particles from 1 Dirac particle.
 
  • #44
Consider the path integral approach:

\int e^{iS}=&lt;x&#039;,t&#039;|x,t&gt;

Suppose at time t, the wavefunction \psi(x,t) is real. Then at a later time t':

\psi(x&#039;,t&#039;)=\int e^{iS} \psi(x,t)

So if the Lagrangian is real, then the action ought to be real, and the imaginary part comes form the i in the exponential. The i in the exponential is needed to keep the path integral from being infinity?
 
  • #45
jensa said:
So do I understand your point was that we could have taken the real field + non-gauge invariant EM field as a starting point? thus eliminating the need for complex fields at the "cost" of losing gauge invariance?

Yes.
 
  • #46
jensa said:
My point is simply that I don't think majorana equation gives you any new insight into the problem than what has been posted in terms of replacing complex schrödinger equation with two real ones.
Yes, I'm sorry. At the time I posted, I hadn't read all of the posts, so I was merely providing a first order equation and not worrying about how many components were needed. I don't have that book that AEM mentioned, but, in defense of the need for multiple components, I would say that, if you require the solution to the equation to be a scalar, and you require space to have more than 1 dimension, then you must introduce also some vector into the equation. So, while this can happen when the medium in which the wave propagates has a flow, I don't consider this a wave equation in the same sense of a matter-wave equation, in which the matter is supposed to be described as a wave that propagates through free space. So, basically, I must be misunderstanding the point.
 
  • #47
jensa said:
Can someone present a first order (in time) wave-equation which is not of the schrödinger form and does not have complex solutions?

What's wrong with just the Schroedinger equation, replacing i with an operator that (rather than performing complex multiplication, and also different from the differential operators) factors any function into a Fourier basis then advances each component by a quarter wave? Doesn't this have solutions \phi(x,t) that are real and single scalar valued?
 
  • #48
I just wanted to remind people that the power of complex numbers
(vs 2 real numbers) lies in the theory of complex-analytic (holomorphic)
functions, I.e., Cauchy-Riemann equations, and all that.

Holomorphic functions of a complex variable are not equivalent
(in general) to functions of 2 real variables.

This leads to immensely powerful theorems, used in advanced
physics quite a lot. (E.g., contour integration, Wick rotation,
path integrals, etc, etc.) The success of these tools suggests that
complex-analyticity does indeed have something important to do
with real world physics.
 
  • #49
Holomorphic functions are indeed powerful, but have to do with certain complex functions of complex variables, while the wavefunction is a complex function of a real variable.

Wick's rotation seems to be just a mathematical trick to turn Minkowski space into Euclidean space so that you can integrate over hyperspheres, but in principle the rotation is not needed if you know how to do the integral. The path integral for scalar or vector fields gets the i\epsilon from extracting the vacuum state, so I think it's just another trick (you could in principle integrate over the vacuum wavefunction to get your path integral instead of the epsilon prescription).
 
  • #50
feynmann said:
Does anyone know a deeper reason why the quantum mechanical wavefunction has to be complex?


In the non-relativistic QM, the complex nature of the wave function is as fundamental as the Plank constant itself.

1) If the dynamical equation EXPLICITLY contains the imaginary number i, as does Schroginger's equation, then a PAIR of REAL functions ( or their equivalent in the form of a SINGLE COMPLEX function) are needed for complete physical description.
If you insert \psi = f + ig into Schrodinger's equation (2m=\hbar =1):

i \partial_{t}\psi = - \nabla^{2}\psi

you end up with 2 COUPLED equations

<br /> \partial_{t}f + \nabla^{2}g = 0, \ \ \ \partial_{t}g - \nabla^{2}f =0<br />

Thus we see that f and g are not INDEPENDENT of each other,i.e., neither of them alone is a solution of Schrodinger's equation.
Therefore, a complete solution requires the REAL pair (f,g) or their equivalent COMPLEX \psi.
Notice that the probability current

j_{i} = 2(f \partial_{i}g - g\partial_{i}f)

is a mutual property of f and g, which vanishes when either is identically zero.

2) If the imaginary (i) does not show up explicitly in your equation, then the USE of COMPLEX function is just an auxiliary device.
Take the wave equation

\frac{\partial^{2}\phi}{\partial t^{2}} = \nabla^{2}\phi

Now put \phi = f +ig. This leads to the following two independent equations

(\frac{\partial^{2}}{\partial t^{2}} - \nabla^{2})f = 0

(\frac{\partial^{2}}{\partial t^{2}} - \nabla^{2})g = 0

Thus, f and g remain independent of each other,i.e., a complete solution can be given in terms of f alone or g alone. Therefore, in this case, the wave function \phi need not necessarily be complex function.

3)You might now say this: But the first-order Schrodinger's equation can be replaced by the "equivalent" second-order equation

\frac{\partial^{2}\psi}{\partial t^{2}} + \nabla^{4}\psi = 0 \ \ \ (X)

Therefore, according to (2), the wave function \psi does not need to be a complex function! Does this mean that the complex nature of Schrodinger's wave function is not FUNDAMENTAL after all?
This quetions is, of course, meaningless, because it is based on a wrong conclusion. Let me explain this.
It is true (as explained in (2)) that \psi in the second-order equation (X) does not need to be complex function. It is also true that the equation (X) is "equivalent" to the first-order Schrodinger's equation. IT IS, however, a WRONG equation to use in QM! One way to see this is to prove that NO CONSERVED PROBABILITY can be set up which depends on \psi only and not on \partial_{t}\psi.
To do this, write

P = P(\psi)

Then

\partial_{t} \int dx \ P(\psi) = \int dx \frac{\partial P}{\partial \psi} \frac{\partial \psi}{\partial t}

If this expression is to vanish for arbitrary \psi, it is necessary that \partial_{t}\psi be given in terms of \psi. But this implies a FIRST-ORDER wave equation. In a SECOND-ORDER differential (like eq(X)), \partial_{t}\psi can be given an arbitrary initial value. Therefore, the above expression cannot vanish for all \psi. For example, if we put

\frac{\partial \psi}{\partial t} = \frac{\partial P}{\partial \psi}

then

\frac{\partial}{\partial t} \int dx \ P(\psi) = \int dx \ (\partial P / \partial \psi )^{2} &gt; 0

So, we see that EQ(X) can not be PHYSICALLY equivalent to Schrodinger's equation.


regards

sam
 
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