Rational Coefficients & Non-Rational Roots: A Puzzling Cubic Polynomial

AI Thread Summary
Cubic polynomials with rational coefficients can indeed have non-rational roots, which can be puzzling. An example is the polynomial 8x^3 - 6x - 1 = 0, which has three real roots that are not rational. The discussion highlights the challenge of finding a cubic polynomial that is completely factorized into rational coefficients while having irrational or imaginary roots. The rational root theorem does not apply universally, especially for polynomials of odd degrees. The conversation concludes with an acknowledgment of the complexity involved in such cases, emphasizing the nuances of polynomial factorization.
Mentallic
Homework Helper
Messages
3,802
Reaction score
95

Homework Statement


Not so much a homework problem, but a problem that is annoying me because of its simplicity.

Not all cubic polynomials with rational coefficients can be factorized by the rational root theorem (or is this false?). What I am finding hard to comprehend is how a cubic with only irrational or imaginary roots can have all rational coefficients.
What I'm looking for is an example or two illustrating a completely factorized cubic with non-rational roots that, if expanded, has all rational coefficients.

The Attempt at a Solution


In an attempt to figure out how it can be done myself I have realized that it is impossible to have one quadratic factor (rational coefficients) that does not have rational roots and the last factor still satisfying this.

e.g. (x^2+a)(x+b) given a>0, the quadratic factor will have imaginary coefficients and of course b will need to be irrational or imaginary, but then if we expand this, the constant will be ab which - if a is rational - will not satisfy the criteria, or if a is such a number that ab becomes rational then we will end up breaking the criteria again since the coefficients of x and x^2 will be b and a respectively (which we've already shown have to both be non-rational).

I've tried a few others, but I'm sure you get the point :smile:

And of course this problem of mine applies to all polynomials of odd degrees.

EDIT: Oh and please exclude the obvious (for me anyway) cases of x^3+a=0 where a is rational and a^{1/3} is not rational.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I'm not sure why you are excluding x^3+a=0, but ok, this particular example came up in a problem earlier. 8x^3-6x-1=0 has three real roots. None of them are rational. By the rational roots test. The roots are cos(pi/9), and (1/2)*(-cos(pi/9)+/-sqrt(3)*sin(pi/9)). Kind of complicated, but what did you expect? I still like x^3-2=0 much better.
 
Last edited:
I excluded that obvious type because I know there were more cases where the coefficients of x and x2 weren't zero, and that one is really simple of course.
Thanks, I see where they are coming from now.
 
I tried to combine those 2 formulas but it didn't work. I tried using another case where there are 2 red balls and 2 blue balls only so when combining the formula I got ##\frac{(4-1)!}{2!2!}=\frac{3}{2}## which does not make sense. Is there any formula to calculate cyclic permutation of identical objects or I have to do it by listing all the possibilities? Thanks
Since ##px^9+q## is the factor, then ##x^9=\frac{-q}{p}## will be one of the roots. Let ##f(x)=27x^{18}+bx^9+70##, then: $$27\left(\frac{-q}{p}\right)^2+b\left(\frac{-q}{p}\right)+70=0$$ $$b=27 \frac{q}{p}+70 \frac{p}{q}$$ $$b=\frac{27q^2+70p^2}{pq}$$ From this expression, it looks like there is no greatest value of ##b## because increasing the value of ##p## and ##q## will also increase the value of ##b##. How to find the greatest value of ##b##? Thanks
Back
Top